EU Referendum – are you in or out?

The idea that the far right will settle for just a little bit is insane. As soon as you cave on one thing they’ll move onto the next, empowered by the fact that you’ve caved- in fact, ever more convinced that they’re right.

Brexit has proven that… look how far the idea of what the Leave vote is a mandate for has shifted in the last few years.

Giving the far right an inch lets them take a foot. They have to be faced down. Hopefully within a parliamentary setting.

Having said that, they look quite fierce, but they’ve always been the same: a handful of donkey jacketed hard lads being egged on by a rump of micro-cocked, ruddy red old tossers. When push comes to shove they usually get their bottoms smacked and put back in their box.

You cannot reason with these people. They are zealots who simply refuse to compromise, and consider others pragmatism as weakness to be exploited.

That’s why we are where we are. It was the far right headbangers of the Tory party who wrote Mays totally uncompromising red lines for her, then demanded more.

They represent a very noisy, but tiny minority yet are repeatedly getting their own way, and driving us towards catastrophe, because spineless cowards refuse to face up to their ‘Enemies of the People’ nationalistic bullying.

It’s going to have to be done at some point, because if we don’t then god only knows where they’re dragging us!

I certainly don’t want to live in the type of society that Rees Mogg, IDS, Peter Bone, Bill Cash, Liam Fox and John Redwood would like to see.

And as for far right protestors taking to the streets? As someone wryly commented the other day:

“Where are they going to march too? The first open pub?”

Delivering the policies of the Far Right, to stop “their people” gaining power, has got us to where we are today. And it will keep sliding that way… it will never stop… unless you take a stand.

This – and the first thing you do is stand up and say that the referendum was (to all intents and purposes) illegally “won” and it was enabled by Leave.EU and Vote Leave combining forces, breaking electoral rules and there was the small matter of various Russian-based psyops and Cambridge Analytica.

So declare it all null and void, prosecute the lying shits like Johnson and Farage for treason and there could probably do with being a few heads at the BBC that roll too for enabling it all with their biased coverage and wall-to-wall Farage and JRM interviews.

And then spend quite a long time apologising to the EU as well.

I’m more than happy to listen to reasoned arguments why Brexit will be good for the country, it is just that in the past (nearly 1500) pages, I cannot recall a single compelling reason why Brexit is a good idea.

Yep that what makes it so bizarre that our leaders are full steam ahead on this, we couldn’t have boaty mcBoatface but we can have economic oblivion.

So declare it all null and void, prosecute the lying shits like Johnson and Farage

Best make it quick then because laughing boy is gearing up to get a party and gammons to elect him ….PRIME MINISTER

er blue passports and we may have possibly bullied some small countries into flogging us cheaper bananas an sugar.

But other than that the promises are starting to look a bit bare, all the fantastic trade deals that were going to be ready to sign.

Oh and we’ll get the US forcing to dismantle our H&S and welfare standards and our farming subsidies to open the way for the crap they want to export to us and their demands to the way the NHS purchases its drugs and how much it pays for them.

The BBC has a fundamental problem when it uses as it’s benchmark for balance coverage received in the popular press.

I was reading a German paper the other day, SDZ, and they were weighing the negatives of the division of Europe and the positives of those troublesome Brits **** off. There’s more and more a feeling that apart from potential trouble in Ireland BREXIT isn’t such a bad thing.

You mean they don’t actually need us more than we need them. I feel lied to.

Who’s talking about giving an inch to the far right? Certainly not me. The far right need political chaos in which to thrive, which is the very thing I’m suggesting the leaderships of both parties are trying to avoid. If labour and the tories split, we’ll be in an Italy situation with coalition govt held to ransom by minority interests. Much as I like her I’m afraid that’s not going to be Caroline Lucas.

Who’s talking about giving an inch to the far right?

Both main parties are led by people claiming that we MUST end FoM. Not just insisting we leave the EU, but also ruling out any new close relationship with our neighbours that allows FoM to continue.

As for political chaos… if your think carrying out a Hard Brexit avoids this… well… let’s be honest… I don’t think for a second you do believe this at all.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-rejects-jeremy-corbyns-demand-uk-match-eu-workers-rights-after-brexit_uk_5c605182e4b0eec79b247b61?utm_hp_ref=uk-politics

Well that was always likely, not in a mood to listen to anyone or take a consensus view.

There’s more and more a feeling that apart from potential trouble in Ireland BREXIT isn’t such a bad thing.

I recall reading a blog by that Andrew Lilico brexit dude, where he listed the upsides of Brexit.

Most looked like total nonsense, but one of them was that a more united Europe would have higher growth, and since Europe is our main trading partner, this would result in more growth for the UK as a result.

Yes, really.

All forecasts have France and Holland also significantly hit… but, yes, only Ireland is predicted to be hit anywhere near as hard as us. Might all look reasonably rosey in Germany generally economically, but even then, not good for research or the arts.

if your think carrying out a Hard Brexit avoids this

You really should read my past posts on this thread if you seriously believe I want a hard Brexit. I’m about as remain as you can get. However, despite this I have come to think recently that hanging on to faint hopes of Brexit being reversed is, to use a topical phrase, wishing for unicorns.

The only hope now of avoiding the chaos of a no deal or hard Brexit is for a compromise deal between the tories and labour. Labour have made a move toward that yet now you’re all crying betrayal. Let me repeat again, Brexit is happening. The only choice is which type.

“Which type” has been broadly decided by both party leaders when they rejected FoM. May has had to come to terms with what that means, where as Corbyn is still blowing bubbles of deceit about it. We’re heading for a hard Brexit… but both parties will accept the WA in March to ensure we get a transition period, and a softer landing to our Hard Brexit reality.

I’m aware you don’t want a Hard Brexit… you need to drop the denial and accept that is what Corbyn is enabling. And then, once we’re free of Single Market rules, we move closer to the Britain the international Hard Right are pushing for. And they won’t stop there. Wait ’till the UK/USA trade deal happens.

The only hope now of avoiding the chaos of a no deal or hard Brexit is for a compromise deal between the tories and labour. Labour have made a move toward that yet now you’re all crying betrayal. Let me repeat again, Brexit is happening. The only choice is which type.

We have 7 weeks, there are 3 options open to do something on the 29th that the UK can do on it’s own
1) Leave No Deal
2) Take the Deal
3) Stop Brexit

Option 4 applies if the EU want to play which is to extend – something I understand they are not keen on
There is no time to negotiate anything different unless it’s very simple and basically what we have now for more cash and less say.

So no matter what cross party talking happens unless it delivers a Majority for May’s deal then the options left are no deal or cancel it.

Want to actually call odds on those?

you need to drop the denial and accept that is what Corbyn is enabling

Now I’m really confused. Labour (not Corbyn on his own) are offering a deal which is by definition a soft Brexit. Or at least as soft as is possible. If by soft Brexit you mean no Brexit then no I don’t think that’s possible.

I suppose there’s a very small chance that faced with a no deal, May will unilaterally revoke A50 but that will almost certainly result in a collapse of the govt and Corbyn as PM so I doubt that will happen.

1) Leave No Deal
2) Take the Deal
3) Stop Brexit

Or at least as soft as is possible

They are ruling out FoM.
Ruling out EEA.
Ruling out operating in the Single Market.
Ruling out staying in the Customs Union.

This is a Hard Brexit.

Corbyn is still asking now for what May was seeking before she hit reality… trading on similar terms as we do now, but stopping the movement of workers. Not going to happen.

There were ways to Leave that were “soft”, but it’s too late for that now… thanks to May’s FoM redline, which Corbyn has supported since the Referendum. The options now are…

1) Hard Brexit with no transition
2) Hard Brexit with transition
3) No Brexit

I suppose there’s a very small chance that faced with a no deal, May will unilaterally revoke A50 but that will almost certainly result in a collapse of the govt and Corbyn as PM so I doubt that will happen.

She is gone if no deal happens along with her government, this also relies on her being in charge on the 28th. Another round of votes, another deadlock and another confidence motion? Want to be the remain tory that enabled hard brexit?

This is a Hard Brexit

Well that’s as soft as you’re going to get I’m afraid. The alternative is no deal. And no deal is much easier to achieve than the alternative, as all they have to do is nothing.

Me too. At least that way some of them might stay inside and not vote for stuff they have absolutely no idea about again.

Ah. People should only vote if it’s to agree with you. That always ends well.

Well that’s as soft as you’re going to get I’m afraid. The alternative is no deal. And no deal is much easier to achieve than the alternative, as all they have to do is nothing.

Quite. We can argue over semantics but Labour’s proposal considerably softens May”s deal.

She is gone if no deal happens along with her government, …

Nope, she will be stronger.

You will just have two more political parties to choose from:

New Tories – Remainders
New new Labour – Remainders

Tories – Leavers
Labour – Leavers

😀

Well that’s as soft as you’re going to get I’m afraid.

Yes, because of the FoM redline that both May and Corbyn have stuck to for the last three years. If we leave, we get Hard Brexit, because of the choices made by the political leaders of our two main parties. Hard Brexit is not “the will of the people”, it is the choice of politicans. Primarily two politicans that are happy to damage these countries for their own narrow political ambitions (in my opinion).

Hard Brexit is not “the will of the people”

I really wish it wasn’t the case but have you missed all the stuff about immigration? If you’re defining hard brexit by the end of FOM then I’m afraid that’s exactly what people want.

“Legitimate Concerns.”

Plenty of surveys showing that if you explicitly link FoM to the Single Market… then respondents are heavily in favour of keeping FoM to stay in Single Market. Ending FoM is a choice made by our party leaders. Yes, Leave would not have won without the votes of people wanting to end FoM, but most people would be happy to keep FoM to stay in the Single Market.

———

Ignoring all those that voted Leave to be like Norway, or like Switzerland, or for our own “bespoke” arrangement keeping us operating in the Single Market (or exact same benefits, or keeping frictionless trade and movement), is a mistake that politicans make all the time (after, but strangely not before the referendum). Don’t be like them. The only decision made to end FoM was made by politicans… the people didn’t make that call.

Don’t be like them. The only decision made to end FoM was made by politicans… the people didn’t make that call.

Didn’t someone say the politicians represent the people’s will?

Boris Johnson has just been interviewed on Radio 4

Its fine. Don’t worry. Everything is going to be ok in the event of a no deal/crashing out Brexit, because….. erm….unicorns

In other news Deputy assistant commissioner Richard Martin has said that after Brexit policing would be where we were in the 1950’s. I’m presuming this is good news to most brexiteers as it’ll mean bobbies back on the beat, able to give young rapscallions a clip round the ear

Morris Minor Panda cars! Wicked. I love those.

Martin Keown gets everywhere…

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/11/brexit-theresa-may-rules-out-jeremy-corbyn-customs-union-plan-rory-stewart

While we’re laughing at that lot… what about the people we voted for…

I am told @Keir_Starmer is not the happiest member of the frontbench. According to multiple sources, he had agreed that the final part of Corbyn’s letter to May would say “if you do not accept this [Brexit offer] there will be a People’s Vote”. One source…

— Robert Peston (@Peston) February 11, 2019

reaction has not been one of unbridled joy. And even erstwhile Corbyn loyalists are becoming grumpy at what they see as his refusal to follow the revealed will of Labour members and supporters that their should be a referendum. One said: “the only interest”…

— Robert Peston (@Peston) February 11, 2019

…are Corbyn’s team useless or Machiavellian?

https://twitter.com/jamesrbuk/status/1094917539061223425?s=21

…are Corbyn’s team useless or Machiavellian?

Well when you start a debate with ‘I am told….’

Tagesschau24 have just flashed up .2% growth and -.5% industrial production with a picture of a broken union flag and suitably negative commentary.

good news Assos shorts are safe

https://www.ft.com/content/2341f6e8-2dd5-11e9-ba00-0251022932c8

oh, forgot rules of origin……