Cameron kicks EU in the nuts – right decision?

Does look a bit like a game of Chicken, but “neither driver” suggests only 2 cars. Maybe a bit more accurate Chicken would be our Dave standing in the way of a roller coaster at Alton Towers with 26 cars heading his way.

it is wrong to think of EM as a homogenous group.

Ah, right, fair do’s.

I am a simple soul though – honest. Just a simple member of the toiling classes who asks for nothing more than the opportunity to earn an honest crust.

Simple, poor, but happy 8)

In the interests of Euro solidarity – bon nuit, schlaffen sie gut (if that is correct?)

I go to bed with the FT headlining “Near-term risk to peripheral states remains – new treaty is probably not enough to get through to Christmas”. Perhaps 25% was too optimistic?? Let’s hope not.

Newnight tonight – the line of the day. Stephanie Flanders hoping to talk about big bazookas!!

My concern is simply to look at the misunderstanding or outright lying about fiscal positions as one example.

Joke (or is it?): How do you know when a politician is lying?

Prior to today we had a euro crisis. Now we still have a euro crisis AND a political crisis in the EU.

Arguably an engineered political crisis to divert attention from the economic one. Not that I was cynical enough to come up with that idea myself, but I’ve seen it suggested a few times.

Chicken would be our Dave standing in the way of a roller coaster at Alton Towers with 26 cars heading his way.

Kind of – more like dodgems with 26 cars headed his way from all different directions, and he’s already jumped…

Joke (or is it?): How do you know when a politician is lying?

Joke (or is it?) 😉

Kind of – more like dodgems with 26 cars headed his way from all different directions, and he’s already jumped…

Or a 26 car race on a track with a mobile chicane.
I think he’s done the right thing for the UK, not necessarily the right thing for Europe, but for the UK- si señor.

Euro …

Never!

Kind of – more like dodgems with 26 cars headed his way from all different directions, and he’s already jumped…

It’s like dodgems, but where all the punters have borrowed the 50p off the guy in the middle, and no-one has paid the electricity bill. It’s dark and the candy floss tastes good, and the music is loud, but everyone knows that sooner or later everything will grind to a halt.

And now they’ve been playing it so long that they don’t know any other game, and the smaller children are desperate for the toilet but their parents won’t let them get off for fear they will get run over by the other drivers, so they carry on driving round, with small damp patches, but in the darkness no-one can tell.

And a couple of the parents are really mouthy now and a bit drunk, and really quite annoying, and to be honest going round in circles is starting to get quite tiresome, and it would be great to get off but who wants to be first to do that, and have to go home alone?

There are so many other other people at the fair, just wandering about having a good time, eating hot dogs, going on the merry-go-round; out there; beyond the edge of the dodgems.

And there’s the smell of hot sweet mulled wine and somewhere, the faint pungent odour of a kebab van.

It was amusing to see Cameron getting completely ignored by everyone, ‘i’ll just sit back down again and get my phone out so people think i’m doing something terribly important, this isn’t awkward at all, yes i’ll send a text’ … 2 my tory masterz. Dun wot u told me 2. The french hobbit hates us even more now. LOL. Dave x

“Schlaf gut et bonne nuit”.

We’ve been treated to repeated clips of Cameron pushing past Sarkozy and stomping around the table as Sarkozy goes around cheerily shaking delegates hands. No comment, just the clip.

There’s been no hatred on French media, only disappointment..

DC’s body language said it all…

and france and germany have played a cracker, and are simply pointing the blame elsewhere – ‘oh those horrible islanders for not joining in and doing what we tell them’, whilst really they are the ones that:

-pushed the hardest for the euro
-benefited the most from the good times
-didn’t short out the massive difficulties of the varying southern/northern economies
-then didn’t police it properly

so now we’ll have – lomg time low rates, low spending (investment), meaning long debt repayment and increased inflation because thats what banks really want for debt repayment

Nasty reflexes are at work…We have been there before.

The Daily Mailograph really is the gift that keeps on giving.

This is well worth a read:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2011/12/britain-and-eu-1?fsrc=rss

Yeah, result Dave………..fragmentation with greater and greater chances of each country seeking its own national ‘solution’- growth of trade barriers – growth of ultra-nationalism – growth of trade wars – ramping up the jingoist rhetoric – taking sides……….all part of the lining up for WW3. We’ve been here before when the last big capitalist crisis propelled us to this. Last time it took 2 WWs and how many million dead? Next time?

And I have to say, much though I detest Sarko for what he does to French workers and immigrants, he was right in this – deregulation WAS one of the primary causes (or at least, triggers) for this recession, which ain’t over yet, and has suddenly got a whole lot more problematic worldwide with Cameron’s antics.

Little englanders, don’t you love em?

CaptJon – Member
This is well worth a read:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2011/12/britain-and-eu-1?fsrc=rss

Lines up quite nicely with this one…

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pm-really-asked-brussels-212157671.html

… and puts a different spin on the whole thing.

Lines up quite nicely with this one…

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pm-really-asked-brussels-212157671.html

From that link :

So although the Prime Minister told Adam Boulton earlier that the decision would have involved an erosion of UK sovereignty , the reality is that the erosion happened (in legal terms at least) some time ago.

Sounds as if David Cameron himself, didn’t know what he was opposing in Brussels. Either that, or he was deliberately misleading the British people. Whichever it was, it doesn’t look good.

There was no need for Cameron to veto at all. He had many other options. We are diminished by this with virtually no influence left in Europe. Stupid, shortsighted and damaging. All because he is beholden to the eurosceptics

Clegg appears belatedly to have found some spine – I suspect because senior lib dems have given him a kicking. Too little too late. However If Milliband can play a blinder he might / should be able to force a vote that will split the coalition.

sources close to Clegg made clear that the deputy prime minister believed the PM had been guilty of serious negotiating failures that risked damaging the national interest, British jobs and economic growth.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/dec/10/nick-clegg-david-cameron-europe-veto

Even the business leaders appear to realise how stupid this is

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/dec/10/business-reaction-cameron-eu-veto?intcmp=239

However If Milliband can play a blinder

😆

Thanks you’ve been a great audience, I’m here all week! Try the fish etc etc

I was surprised or not ! that Clegg did not go together with Cameron
Just shows there is the Shoe and the Shoehorn
Think now it”l be the end for the coalition soon and the end for knob head Clegg.

However If Milliband can play a blinder he might / should be able to force a vote that will split the coalition.

I know how desperate you are to see the “coalition” unravel TJ, but that is very unlikely to happen.

The last thing the Tories want right now is a general election, and for the LibDems it’s the nightmare scenario – they’re hanging on for dear life because falling off would represent a disaster of historic magnitude.

Putting to one side the very occasional blips which show Labour and Tories neck and neck, the BBC poll of polls still shows Labour consistently ahead of the Tories :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8280050.stm

If they was a general election now Labour would very likely be the party with the most seats, and the Tories would undoubtedly do worse than they did on May 2010. So not a good idea for them.

In the case of the LibDems they would without a doubt get slaughtered, so they are definitely not going to want the break-up of the “coalition”. Their best hope is to abandon any remaining principles which they might still have left and hope that by some bizarre miracle the economy improves dramatically, vindicating their betrayal to their voters.

Which of course isn’t going to happen, so they might as well enjoy their ministerial cars and enhanced salaries for the next few years.

The so-called coalition is almost certainly here for the duration – so get used to it. In the meantime if you’re not happy with it then agitated against it, and force the coalition to add to the growing list of U-turns it has been obliged to carry out.

The last thing the Tories want right now is a general election, and for the LibDems it’s the nightmare scenario

Apart from that, don’t we know have fixed term parliaments anyway – or did they leave in some mechanism to call a general election if nobody is able to get a anything through the house due to deadlock (in which case the fixed term legislation would appear to be worthless)?

In the case of the LibDems they would without a doubt get slaughtered, so they are definitely not going to want the break-up of the “coalition”. Their best hope is to abandon any remaining principles which they might still have left and hope that by some bizarre miracle the economy improves dramatically, vindicating their betrayal to their voters.

Even if the miracle doesn’t happen, they’re unlikely to do worse if they wait, and might well do a little better if they manage to pull off some small victories in their negotiations with the Tories (actually that’s even less likely than the economy improving!)

I do hope you are wrong Ernie but I fear yo may be right. There is such a divergent and irreconcilable set of differences on Europe in the coalition that a good political operator should be able to split them – but does labour have anyone good enough?

IMO the lib dems best hope of avoiding electoral disaster is to ditch Clegg, collapse the coalition and fight on an anti tory platform – ” we tried our best to make it work for the good of the UK but can no longer”

The PM is clearly being run by the Eurosceptics

From Ashdown

In order to “protect the City” we have made it more vulnerable. At a time of economic crisis, we have made it more attractive for investors to go to northern Europe. We have tipped 38 years of British foreign policy down the drain in one night. We have handed the referendum agenda over to the Eurosceptics. We have strengthened the arguments of those who would break the union. We have isolated ourselves from Europe and diminished ourselves in Washington.

How can that be reconciled with the triumphalism from the eurosceptics?

The Mayor of London said: “David Cameron has done the only thing that it was really open to him to do. He has played a blinder. “

Tory MP Robert Halfon hailed him for showing his “bulldog spirit”.

Bill Cash, the chairman of the Commons European Scrutiny Committee, said Mr Cameron had put the UK on to a “path towards renegotiating in a fundamental way the whole of our treaty relationship with the EU”.

Alternatively, you could question how you reconcile the pessimism of a Europhile with the sensible comments being made by others…

Doesn’t really matter which side you are on – I just don’t see how the positions can be reconciled. The eurosceptics are bonkers as well – they would force Cameron out if they thought he had betrayed them – thats why he is running scared of them

Do we have fixed term legislation? I think if a vote of no confidence goes thru the government falls and if no one else can attract a majority then new elections are needed

TJ – I think you are right about positions that cannot be reconciled but wrong on the implications. We are talking about politicians after all -what do they crave above all else? Power. Everything else is sacrificed to that altar. The Lib Dems have something that they could not under normal circumstances imagine possible – influence in government and positions of responsibility. This is the Christmas period, but they are not Turkeys!!

That Economist article is interesting and as the news trickles out about what REALLY happened behind closed doors it will be fascinating to watch the skullduggery and blatant machiavellian behaviour of most of the players involved. How apt that Von Rumpey Pumpy went for the cop out option.

But as I said earlier the sad thing in all of this, given the gravity of the situation, is the fact that these officials are still focusing all their resources on the symptoms of the crisis not the causes. Hence my persuasion remains that we are being sidelined, yes, but sidelined to watch the forthcoming train crash which could well be very ugly indeed. The proposals on addressing fiscal deficits is a fudge and the bazooka remains unarmed. Maybe my 25% needs to go up to 30% – for the full scale crisis before end 1Q12??? Of course, we will be affected badly by this but collateral damage will be less than full scale impact (except for our banks – RBS don’t you just love them?)

It is rich of anyone to blame GB for putting self interests first. What they hell have Merkel and Sarkozy been doing all along. Germany has hoodwinked the rest of Europe with a massive one-way ticket all along. Now they have to pay the bill for this but want to keep their hands firmly in their pockets!!

Teamhurtmore – the point is that Cameron did did not put UK interests first – he simply appeased the Eurosceptics. there was no need to veto at all. Nothing in the plans would have affected the UK adversly – and plenty of other tactics were available anyway.

Germany has hoodwinked no one – everyone else has gone along with the plans willingly.

TJ – no point swapping views on this. Lets just agree to disagree. At the moment, none of us reallt know what happened behind closed doors and I have no doubt that Slippery Sarkozy had GB well in his sights from the off.

I am taking a long term perspective on Germany (not this weekend). They created an amazing system that worked for them at the cost of most of the rest of Europe. Created immediate competitiveness for German corporates at the expense of their European competitors and then exported inappropriate IR policies that created the bubbles throughout the rest of the peripherary. And now, ignoring their own fiscal performance, Merkel is insisting that this is only a crisis of fiscal deficits. With this diagnosis she is commiting the peripherary to the likely forthcoming train crash. No one is a real winner in this though.

No one is a real winner in this though.

There is. Gordon Brown. He was about to go down in history as the idiot who destroyed the UK economy. Not any more. He’ll be the far-sighted genius who stopped us from entering the euro.

Gordon Brown and Bill Cash (insert any Tory Eurosceptic of choice) – a marriage made in…..?????

I am taking a long term perspective on Germany (not this weekend). They created an amazing system that worked for them at the cost of most of the rest of Europe. Created immediate competitiveness for German corporates at the expense of their European competitors and then exported inappropriate IR policies that created the bubbles throughout the rest of the peripherary. And now, ignoring their own fiscal performance, Merkel is insisting that this is only a crisis of fiscal deficits. With this diagnosis she is commiting the peripherary to the likely forthcoming train crash. No one is a real winner in this though.

Succinctly put. All along its been within Germany’s power to stop the Euro crisis. All they have to do is step in as the guarantor of last resort. They have the resources to do this. However Merkel knows that as soon as she does this without fiscal union the Italians and Greeks will breathe a sigh of relief and start backsliding on their austerity programmes which will result in the German’s having to bail them out big time. If she’d got the fiscal union she was after this week then it would probably all be over my know. As it was Sarkozy blocked her as he knew he could never sell full fiscal union to the French electorate. They’ve now agreed some sort of wishy washy re-enforcement of the stability pact which is going to do nothing to placate the markets in the long term.

He’ll be the far-sighted genius who stopped us from entering the euro.

I agree the one good thing Culpability Brown did was to keep us out of the Euro. Hopefully because he thought it was the best thing for Britain but I suspect he did it because, control freak that he is, he couldn’t stand the thought of surrendering some of his control over the British economy.

Gordon Brown. He was about to go down in history as the idiot who destroyed the UK economy. Not any more. He’ll be the far-sighted genius who stopped us from entering the euro.

You do have to give him credit for his five tests – a very clever way of making it look like we wanted to be part of the club, but with tests he knew it wasn’t possible to meet. There were plenty of people who didn’t want us to enter the Euro – he was the one who came up with the scheme of making it look like we did without having any intention of doing so.

Plus Tony Blair wanted us in which was another reason for Brown to keep us out.

TandemJeremy IMO the lib dems best hope of avoiding electoral disaster is to ditch Clegg, collapse the coalition and fight on an anti tory platform – ” we tried our best to make it work for the good of the UK but can no longer”

Your so right Tamdemjeremy

But I still think it will be the end for them for years to come
Even seen Clegg on TV this morning He was well embarrassed, but still supporting
the tories to a large degree.

Im surprised no one has interviewed Gordon Brown on his reasons
why he never put us fully in the EU

If milliband can play a blinder?

TJ . That’s genius! You’ve now convinced me that you are the foremost satirical comic presently at work in our great nation! When can we expect to see you hosting Have I Got News For You? Have you recorded it already? 😀

Hence the IF Binners

If milliband can play a blinder?

Thats a very big IF, Tandem and just not going to happen

I think everybody already knows the result of the ‘if’ though. He’s utterly hopeless

Open goal?

It’s going in row Z mate

Open goal?

It’s going in row Z mate

*sniggers*