I don’t know why people don’t just come out and say exactly what everyone is thinking and tell Germany that they should pay as they owe the rest of Europe a few favours!

So bringing up events that occurred before the current chancellor of Germany was even born is relevent how? Let’s get over ourselves here, it’s not as if the UK doesn’t also have a small minority of far right nutjobs which tarnish our reputation is it?

I don’t know why people don’t just come out and say exactly what everyone is thinking and tell Germany that they should pay as they owe the rest of Europe a few favours!

I dont think you can speak for everyone on this issue …bit arrogant… as i dont share your zenophobia and I doubt many do tbh
Is this a war reference??? Well it was only 65 years ago and no one invloved now was alive then so you may have a point 🙄

+1 what allthepies said.

“Last night most of Europe’s governments gave up a chunk of their sovereignty. In the future, tax and spending plans will be shown to European officials before national governments.”

Does anyone on here actually want this for Britain? Anyone?

Last night most of Europe’s governments gave up a chunk of their sovereignty. In the future, tax and spending plans will be shown to European officials before national governments.

What’s the difference between that and the fallout from the calamity which ejected Britain from the ERM in 1992 then?

This crisis is far worse and unsolvable…

What’s the difference between that and the fallout from the calamity which ejected Britain from the ERM in 1992 then?

Wasn’t aware UK budget and taxation plans had to be approved by unelected EU officials, you may have a scoop there!

It’s interesting to note that anyone anti or sceptical about Europe is immediately branded a “xenophobe”. Almost a tacit cry of “RACIST!” isn’t it?

@CaptainFlashhert

It’s interesting to note that anyone anti or sceptical about Europe is immediately branded a “xenophobe”. Almost a tacit cry of “RACIST!” isn’t it?

There’s a difference between a balanced argument about the transfer of sovereignty to a federal Europe and bringing up events of seventy two years ago in order to attain a false sense of moral superiority over Germany.

Does anyone on here actually want this for Britain? Anyone?

No, but on the other hand if this had happened with Brown’s budgets maybe we wouldn’t be in quite such a bad position now? Just saying like.

Do you want to defend the germany quote then Cpt or just make this point?
it is not immediately was it?
It is not a tacit cry of racism as the words mean different things but i see why you wish to muddy the waters so we cant use that descriptor in relation to that germany quote.

In broad terms you have a bit of a point but I dont think it is a fair point to make in relation to this thread.

Denmark haven’t accepted and it would be taken to parliament before accepting.

No mention of this in the UK news I’ve read

Last night most of Europe’s governments gave up a chunk of their sovereignty. In the future, tax and spending plans will be shown to European officials before national governments.

Lovely use of pejorative language. How about “pooled” or shared”

It would be funny if it wasn’t so serious.

It’s interesting to note that anyone anti or sceptical about Europe is immediately branded a “xenophobe”. Almost a tacit cry of “RACIST!” isn’t it?

Indeed! Its akin to shouting troll when you have nothing to say.

Xenophobia – an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange

My point wasn’t related to the Germany/WWII issue, by the way. More of a general one.

This isn’t an Essex swingers party with sovereignty thrown into the ash tray, you either have the right to set your own tax and spending priorities or you don’t.

from the same blog

For the UK this marks a fundamental change in its relationship with Europe. Never has the UK been so on the margins.

deregulation of the banks was gordons big failure according to the right wingers ™ at the time of the crash

now cameron has jeopardised our position in europe to protect that deregulation hes a hero?

Lovely use of pejorative language. How about “pooled” or shared”

Why would anyone need to “share” budget/taxation details with unelected EU officials ahead of a national government ?

It’s Merkel’s intransigence that’s causing the problems at the moment, not Cameron’s.

This. Has anybody actually read what they’re agreeing to. If you don’t get your finances in order you get penalised. So those countries who can’t get their finances in order (because they’re constrained by the straitjacket of a single currency without any of the normal central things a currency has to support itself) get hit with a double whammy. All because Merkel doesn’t has short arms and deep pockets and doesn’t want to make the tough decisions to sort out the currency which has been so beneficial to her country (and would rather get somebody else to pay to support the German economy).

I don’t know why people don’t just come out and say exactly what everyone is thinking and tell Germany that they should pay as they owe the rest of Europe a few favours!

Maybe I don’t instinctively see everything as racist/xenophobic, but I assumed this was referring to how well Germany have done out of the single currency rather than something much longer ago.

Lovely use of pejorative language. How about “pooled” or shared”

In the context “pooled” or “shared” are weasel words. They imply that you can choose to un-share.

i am sure that is what they will say now but Germany has been doing ok for some time now

To balance some of the emotive opinions expressed on this subject, here’s the facts of the agreement summary signed by the 23 countries:

http://www.consilium.europa.eu/uedocs/cms_data/docs/pressdata/en/ec/126658.pdf

Here’s the source (bbc.co.uk)
“0920: To read about what exactly the eurozone leaders have agreed, see this statement from the summit last night.”

In the context “pooled” or “shared” are weasel words. They imply that you can choose to un-share.

Exactly right….and those are Gavin Hewitts words. Never mind about answering an uncomfortable question TJ.

100!

what uncomfortable question?

Pissing in Merkels and sarkozys shoes is not doing us any good

Just don’t say anything about “owning with bombers” 🙂

Even the Economist is sceptical about how the potential consequences might benefit the UK:

After much studied vagueness on his part about Britain’s objectives, Mr Cameron’s demand came down to a protocol that would ensure Britain would be given a veto on financial-services regulation (see PDF copy here). The British government has become convinced that the European Commission, usually a bastion of liberalism in Europe, has been issuing regulations hostile to the City of London under the influence of its French single-market commissioner, Michel Barnier. And yet strangely, given the accusation that Brussels was taking aim at the heart of the British economy, almost all of the new rules issued so far have been passed with British approval (albeit after much bitter backroom fighting). Tactically, too, it seemed odd to make a stand in defence of the financiers that politicians, both in Britain and across the rest of European, prefer to denounce.

Mr Cameron said he is “relaxed” about the separation. The EU has always been about multiple speeds; he was glad Britain had stayed out of the euro and out of the passport-free Schengen area. He said that life in the EU, particularly the single market, will continue as normal. “We wish them well as we want the euro zone to sort out its problems, to achieve stability and growth that all of Europe needs.” The drawn faces of senior officials seemed to say otherwise.

The 23 members of the new pact, if they act as a block, can outvote Britain. They are divided among themselves, of course. But their habit of working together and cutting deals will, inevitably, begin to weigh against Britain over time.

Mr Sarkozy and Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, have given notice of their desire for the euro zone to act in all the domains that would normally be the remit of all 27 members—for example, labour-market regulations and the corporate-tax base.

Britain may assume it will benefit from extra business for the City, should the euro zone ever pass a financial-transaction tax. But what if the new club starts imposing financial regulations among the 17 euro-zone members, or the 23 members of the euro-plus pact? That could begin to force euro-denominated transactions into the euro zone, say Paris or Frankfurt. Britain would, surely, have had more influence had the countries of the euro zone remained under an EU-wide system.

So what’s the problem with Europe deciding upon our fiscal and social policy? Anyone?

I’m not looking to start an arguement, but I don’t fully understand the opposition to a federal Europe.

So what’s the problem with Europe deciding upon our fiscal and social policy?

That’s the job of our democratically elected government.

That’s the job of our democratically elected government

But we do also vote for our MEPs don’t we?

what’s the problem with Europe deciding upon our fiscal and social policy

Nothing, provided we have collectively decided in a democratic way that this is what the country wants. There is, however, plenty wrong with this being imposed on us by the EU in order to prop up a flawed implementation of a currency.

The 23 members of the new pact, if they act as a block, can outvote Britain. They are divided among themselves, of course. But their habit of working together and cutting deals will, inevitably, begin to weigh against Britain over time.

That’s pretty disingenuous. The 17 members of the Eurozone could also if they acted as a block outvote Britain. Or indeed any other group of countries with a common interest. Either it happens already, or consensus amongst a disparate group of countries (all looking out for their own personal interests – yes I’m talking about you Angela and Nicolas) isn’t about to break out now.

Hey if you want to form a fully federal United States of Europe go campaign for that. I look forward to that election result.

PJM

One of the critical issues is do you see it as giving up sovereignty or sharing it.

Its a philosophical position. Glass half full or empty sort of thing

“Last night most of Europe’s governments gave up a chunk of their sovereignty. In the future, tax and spending plans will be shown to European officials before national governments.”

Does anyone on here actually want this for Britain? Anyone?

TJ – this question.

There is, however, plenty wrong with this being imposed on us by the EU in order to prop up a flawed implementation of a currency.

…in lieu of making the difficult decisions and actually doing something meaningful which would solve the problem (but would involve Germany breaking open its piggy bank).

Do those that support the decision really think this means we have more sovereignty over tax and spending plans?

This whole crisis should show that states have virtually no sovereignty of their own economically. Countries under speculative attack, unaccountable debt rating agencies (who if you remember were one of the main causes of the crisis in the first place) with the power to change credit ratings at a whim meaning those that want to keep a particular rating have to operate within a very narrow economic policy, democratically elected governments getting replaced by unelected technocrats, hundreds of billions of £/$/€ worth of stimulus packages disappearing into black holes rather than being directed to the ‘real’ economy.

What remains of sovereignty? You are looking at only being able to do things at the margins when radical reforms are needed, but they are going to be almost impossible to carry through in the current political and economic model.

One of the critical issues is do you see it as giving up sovereignty or sharing it.

Do you see independence as gaining sovereignty, or stopping sharing it?

That’s the job of our democratically elected government.

ah so who voted for a lib dem coalition with the lib dems breaking their pledges and implementing tory economic policies?

This is the great tradition of listening to the people we need to protect

For balance Blair and iraq etc
IMHO we are only arguing over where we should be ignored from

mcboo

Thats a very biased and pejorative interpretation of what might happen

so the only answer to that is to say its a nonsensical question designed to elicit a particular answer thus there is no real answer

This whole crisis should show that states have virtually no sovereignty of their own economically.

Maybe for Eurozone countries – one of the big causes of this particular crisis is that they weren’t on a tight enough reign. I don’t see any particular reason why the UK needs to be on as tight a reign when we have our own currency, so are in a position to make independent economic decisions.

unaccountable debt rating agencies (who if you remember were one of the main causes of the crisis in the first place)

Whilst you’re rewriting history, could you just go back to 1939 and get rid of all the uncomfortable stuff about Czechoslovakia and Poland. We wouldn’t want to upset those fragile Germans.

so the only answer to that is to say its a nonsensical question designed to elicit a particular answer thus there is no real answer

How about my question then?