Junkyard – are you seriously comparing the present and recent governments with whats presently going on in Italy and Greece?

No – i am simply showing that we have unelected bureocrats here and we have people/govts who ignore the wishes of the people in the UK we don’t need to just rant at the EU for this as all democracies do this to some degree. Are you denying this ?

We don’t like your government, so we’re installing this one. And there’s **** all you can do. Lots of love. Brussels

Have you heard of the IMF binners? I am not saying it is good but other agencies would be doing it if these countries were not in the EU and effectively bankrupt.

Maybe, just another one of those people arguing for a reduction in the role of governments and the size of the public sector. Reckon we will see a lot of that over the coming months.

EH ? 😯 I work in the public sector and I am a union rep and I would distribute all income and wealth evenly [ is it not obvious I am too the left of most folk?] – why would you think I am a right winger who wants a minimalist state? We need something to reign in the excesses of capitalism and make the world a fairer place for all.

At least many of these people are actually elected and answerable at an election. Contrast that with the people who “may” now be determining the power of state’s to control taxation and spending!

See IMF and uk in the 70s and other countries beholden to them

I get your point it is not good and it is [ to some degree] not democratic but it is BS to suggest it only happen in Europe – that is my only point

I am largely indifferent to Europe as I dont care where the govt that ignores me sits tbh

See QUANGOS for example of unaccountable technocrats”

Totally overblown Daily Mail nonsense.

What quangos are neither technocrats or they dont have power? – the daily fail may rant about them but they do meet that descriptions. I would not call them technocrats but nor would I call the people in europe technocrats. the label would seem to be equally applicable to both

Tis interesting most folk really do hate europe and how anti democratic it is whilst ignoring the sam elack of democracy in our backyard

“A Tragedy of Bureaucrats”. 😆

Teamhurtmoe – you claim to be pro europe – but actually you don’t want the EU that we have. Well thats tough – you either play by the rules or you don’t play. You cannot cherry pick the bits you want and not have to have the bits you don’t.

I would prefer to be at the heart of Europe pressing for what we want rather than marginalised on the edge with no influence at all. If the UK enganged fully with the EU it would have huge influence as a result of its economic power. Now we have next to none

you either play by the rules or you don’t play – You cannot cherry pick the bits you want and not have to have the bits you don’t.

TJ – nobody appears to have told the French this, who simply ignore everything they don’t like. And always have. See: fishing quotas, the Common Agricultural Policy. Rules on government subsidies to private business etc etc

And obviously all the Southern states have, from the beginninng, been rigorously adhering to the EU rules on debt as % of GDP, and budget deficits

interesting this can I accuse binners of sounding like the Daily Mail?
We seem to get some strong and polarised views on Europe 😯

So now the problem is we follow the rules but Johnny foreigner does not…..you know what you would say were this another thread Is it too early to bring in race ar shall i wait till you say Germany is stampeding across the EU like a panza division 😉

I would prefer to be at the heart of Europe pressing for what we want rather than marginalised on the edge with no influence at all. If the UK enganged fully with the EU it would have huge influence as a result of its economic power. Now we have next to none

So you’d like to be on the bridge of the titanic not sat helpless on Portsmouth harbour?

we havent lost any power in Europe, and we are not marginalised

its all just bluff and posturing, because despite the bile from all sides, Europe needs the UK as much as the UK needs Europe.

maybe 40% of our trade is with Europe, but think about how much Europe trades with us, they cant afford for us to be not part of the free trade and they dont want to lose our markets for their products either.

Basically nothing happened last week and the markets havent reacted and business carries on regardless.

TJ – nobody appears to have told the French this, who simply ignore everything they don’t like. And always have. See: fishing quotas, the Common Agricultural Policy. Rules on government subsidies to private business etc etc

Do they? or is that just how the media depict them? Much like the EU being a German plan to take over Europe its all nonsense.

As for breaking EU rules, Germany has been fined more than any country for breaking rules, it just dosent pay them.

Were all as bad as each other us Europeans.

Junkyard – its my age. Give me a few years and I’ll be writing to the Daily Telegraph in green ink 😉

Hmmmm TJ, so you would rather all of our hard earned went to support the hardworking Greeks or the insolvent Portuese through some half baked and as yet not fully disclosed agreement that the markets have already rejected?

Or would you rather that the UK stood up for it’s own interests and not become a Euro lemming running scared? Sure, the problems in the EU will affect UK trade, but this will be the same whether we are in or out.

The Euro will collapse – there’s no question about that. The debate is how long the whole pantomime is strung along for. There are countries in the Euro that should never have been allowed to join. Because of the huge differences between member states then a single fiscal policy was never doing to suit every country in the Eurozone and as a result things are now starting to unravel big time.

The UK is far better outside all of this mess and able to plot it’s own course in choppy waters.

Face it – nothing will come of the 17 plus deal anyway, as Sarkozy will be gone by May!

The interesting dynamic will be what happens if the French people start looking like they are going elect the wrong person…

We’ve seen what happend to “democracy” in creece and Italy!8O

workshy Greeks

See that’s the type of statement that just shows hatred for Europe, it destroys your argument in the first sentence.

Would none-taxpaying, extremely early retiring Greeks be more acceptable then? Its certainly accurate

Northern star – Camerons veto has no bearing on this at all. None. thats a part of the issue. All he has done is make it harder for us to be heard when things are decided and make it harder for the crucial decisions to be made.

See that’s the type of statement that just shows hatred for Europe, it destroys your argument in the first sentence.

There you go MSP, I have now taken a long hard look at myself in the mirror, slapped myself on the wrist for being so un-PC and have just edited ‘workshy Greeks’ to ‘hardworking Greeks’.

That’s better isn’t it. Now you can read the rest of the post without getting upset. And the Greeks are now free to go about their hard daily work, walking their donkeys along their billiard smooth motorways that us the UK taxpayer has previously helped to fund.

What quangos are neither technocrats or they dont have power? – the daily fail may rant about them but they do meet that descriptions. I would not call them technocrats but nor would I call the people in europe technocrats.

Maybe you should sit down, have a nice cup of tea and calm down a bit because that makes bugger all sense.

All he has done is make it harder for us to be heard when things are decided and make it harder for the crucial decisions to be made.

Quite the opposite infact. Thanks to Cameron’s decision to Veto, we are now the ones holding the strongest cards. If we’d have gone along with the flow then we would be just one small voice in the midst of 26 directionless others.

and make it harder for the crucial decisions to be made.

TJ – Can you give me a single example of a ‘decision’ actually being taken? Any at all? In all these various overblown summits? All I see is endless procrastination, and a complete inability, or lack of will to actually ‘decide’ anything at all.

And therein lies the entire problem of the EU in its present state

Fiveundred!!

How on earth do you see that Northernstar. we will just be sidelined from now on and ignored. We hold no cards – we played them all badly at the wrong time and wasted them

walking their donkeys along their billiard smooth motorways that us the UK taxpayer has previously helped to fund.

(Let’s try not to think too much about the stuff in Scotland, Wales and NI that’s been part-funded by the EU).

Glentress anyone? EU money in there

TJ

i) do you accept that the 17 plus can only realistically hope to function by using existing EU facilities and mechanisms

ii) do you accept that, legally, they can only do this with the unanimous agreement of the 27 (ie. including the UK)

iii) can you now see why the 17 plus REALLY need to either concede to our demands on city regulation, or watch their whole house of cards fall.

Now, tell me how we’ve lost all influence in Europe and have no cards to play at the table again 😆

Were not discussing leaving the EU, for which the UK is a net contributor, this discussion is about forming a new group to defend the Euro.
Basically wanting to bring new rules in to keep the Euro going, within a new structure.

The current EU is not changing.

konabunny – Member

(Let’s try not to think too much about the stuff in Scotland, Wales and NI that’s been part-funded by the EU).

http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/default.aspx?page=4640

ii) do you accept that, legally, they can only do this with the unanimous agreement of the 27 (ie. including the UK)

Actually on Radio 4 yesterday there was a story that the EU lawyers reckoned this wasn’t necessarily the case. i.e. UK’s permission might not be required.

Anyway, carry on 🙂

we will just be sidelined from now

What, sidelined from the complete EU shambles that will lead to the unravelling of the Euro? Surely that’s a good thing no?

The best thing surely is to allow the whole sorry house of cards to collapse in an orderly way as possible and not try to keep propping up a dead patient with life support.

Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and possibly Italy will all default of their debts. Their economies are basket cases and it’s only a matter of time before they default. So why keep on chucking good money after bad?

This is why the Euro can’t survive in it’s current form. It’s because the type of fiscal policy that the southern European countries need is way different to what the slightly more solvent northern European countries need.

A single fiscal policy for the whole of Europe is very much like a doctor having two very different groups of patients. One group with asthma and the other group with terminal cancer. Yet the medicine he gets to treat both groups with must be one and the same. As you can see this this is never going to work for either group.

This is why the UK is better out of this whole mess and remains able to take the medicine that suits our own type of illness.

Just an off the cuff, light hearted remark here.

I know I’m from Stoke so that could cloud the issue, but if I was on the Bridge of the Titannic is there not a chance that I could have spotted the iceberg and steered a course to miss it? If I was on the docks at Portsmouth (Southampton surely?)I would as stated be safe but powerless to do anything.

TandemJeremy – Member
Its so funny watching you guys here – “fog in channel – continent cut off”.

Er it’s wind today actually and operation stack is likely for the 2nd time this week.

Then if it isn’t wind it’s French Fishermen blockading Calais, or French technicians Industrial action with the Tunnel.

It’s so frequent it rarely even gets reported.

As for you other comment about us not having a card to play, er I think you’ll find we have over 60 going on 70 million of them and each and every one of them buys something that comes from Europe very regularly.

France has run a deficit for longer than I can remember, they are also a basket case, it’s just attention hasn’t really focussed on them yet, but it will, wasn’t it one of their banks about to fail during the Chancellors Autumn Statement?

Anyway they’re just as **** as the rest of Southern Europe and should be parcelled up with the PIGS and head up a Euro 2 which then gets devalued.. Put all the rotten apples in one basket rather than have them dragging the Germans down and influencing them the way they are right now.

cameron wasnt using his ‘veto’ for the good of britain though he was using it for the good of the city

because its so vital that we protect it
after all it pulled in 300bn in tax between 2002-2008

yet since 2008 has cost us over 1tn in refinancing the banks and underwriting etc

youd almost think that dave was completely in the pocket of a finance sector thats brought us into this mess
and now wants protection from nasty regulation

Just an off the cuff, light hearted remark here.

I know I’m from Stoke so that could cloud the issue, but if I was on the Bridge of the Titannic is there not a chance that I could have spotted the iceberg and steered a course to miss it? If I was on the docks at Portsmouth (Southampton surely?)I would as stated be safe but powerless to do anything.
We hit the iceberg in the summer.

There must be a little voice in Cameron’s head urging him to call an election in the next few months. What he’s done in Europe may be popular with his friends in the city, but it’s even more popular in large swathes of the country.
For all the desire to ‘bring down the coalition’, with unelectable Ed hunching over the reins, and the LibDems utterly destroyed in terms of electoral credibility, Labour should be careful what it wishes for.

Ed Balls is being rather quiet on this for a reason. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see some leadership moves before too long.

you’d almost think that dave was completely in the pocket of a finance sector thats brought us into this mess and now wants protection from nasty regulation

Thats a very cynical point of view Kimbers. He’s been recieving advice on the whole Europe thing anyway

Daves special adviser

What he’s done in Europe may be popular with his friends in the city, but it’s even more popular in large swathes of the country.

im not sure whats more impressive
that up until now milibland was beating callmedave in the polls

however i suppose, unemployment is at a 17 year high and rising, a double dip recession is around the corner, weve had riots, strikes, another oil war, the rest of europe now hating us yet all it took is a bit of anti euro tubthumping from our PM and all of a sudden hes a hero!?

Your analysis of the British electorate appears fundamentally correct…

did anyone see newsnight last night it ended with Emily Maitlis interviewing 3 female economists about their most important financial graphs of 2011

I bet stoner stashed that one in the **** bank 😉

top graphs of 2011

http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2011/12/10/eurozone-crisis-solved-as-france-and-germany-join-the-pound/

I bet stoner stashed that one in the **** bank

Looks like Angela and Barak have a spy cam installed chez stoner.

German cam in need of calibration ?