Father in law just told me about this -
Not so sure about the hat and boots
My helmet is useless.
It was just on Radio 4 - bloke from the CTC and a different neurosurgeon. Usual arguments ensued...
I sometimes wonder why I wear one on the road bike. Habit more than anything...
How would you challenge the "evidence" if you were on the other side of the debate?
I get the argument that they are useless in many situations, but having had two crashes* over the years that cracked my helmet in two, I'll carry on wearing one just in case.
Of course YMMV and it's all down to personal choice.
*One crash was on an MTB and involved a head-on with a tree, the other on the road and involved a car, my head and the road's surface.
I nipped my helmet in my zip this morning. ****ing smarted, I can tell you.
My helmet's useless, can't even make a cup of tea.
I'll keep wearing it though cos It makes me look as though I've got some common sense.
thing is he states that he's only been knocked off once. If he'd hit his head on tarmac without a lid and then with one, I feel he may take a different view. But yes, I understand the basis that injuries will still be likely in some circumstances.
The seatbelt and airbags on my car are also useless. In all the car trips I have had where I haven't crashed they have done F all. Complete waste of money.
Just because some knob on the radio has a theory, it won't change my views on bike helmets. Tarmac or concrete is effin hard, and my head would hurt if it hit it. Putting an inch of polystyrene between my head and the road can only help my head to hurt a little less.....
I've hit Tarmac at 30mph without a helmet. I didn't die.
It did hurt though.
I've hit Tarmac at 30mph without a helmet. I didn't die.
That certainly explains a thing or two. 😉
i should imagine without one, your brains going to get shaken / knocked to a much greater degree which cannot be good.
[i] hit Tarmac at 30mph without a helmet. I didn't die.[/i]
You didn't actually land on your head though did you?
Knocked myself out cold for about 5 mins. Lost two days.
Skateboards are dangerous...
If it keeps some of the skin on my head when the wife comes to identify me then that's worth it to me.
Helmet Saved My Life Club.
Member forever. Study or no study, if the rock that split my TSG entered my head first, goodness knows.
Hmm. I'll keep wear g them thanks on and off road.
I've had two big falls where I'm sure the helmet did its job. One was an OTB on Stanadge where I landed on my head on a rock and my Xen split bit I was fine. Two weeks ago I mashed my head on the floor and knocked myself out. Looking at the scuffs and gouges on the helmet I'm glad that was wearing it.
as above some big crashes on road and off without a helmet I dread to think of the consequences...............
wear a helmet .............. if in doubt ask James Cracknell
I Went over the bars in the 80's and hit the road on my head. Split my skull and lost 6months. Have also had a snapped fork on a newly gravelled road that resulted in my ear having to be sewn back on. The wearing off a helmet may or may not have reduced injuries in both cases.
I bike pretty often and now always wear a helmet getting through 1 to 2 a year and have a standard crash replacement letter to Madison ready printed for the next one.
All of which is circumstantial evidence, however head scaring is factually much reduced since wearing helmets.
The young Tour de France rider who died without a helmet...
Tarmac is nasty stuff. I'd prefer the helmet to take the hard shockwave' thanks....
I had someone in the shop tell me about this bloke on the radio earlier. He immediately decided to stop wearing his helmet and said he will never bother again...
Idiot
The young Tour de France rider who died without a helmet...
Wouter Weylandt died with a helmet on. Bike racing is dangerous. If you hit the armco coming down an Alp at 50mph a polystyrene hat ain't going to help much.
This debate is very boring. Wear a helmet if you want to, don't get your knickers in a twist if someone else doesn't, and vice-versa, end of discussion. We should concentrate on what really kills people on the roads: dangerous ****wits in cars and vans and lorries.
Wear a helmet if you want to, don't get your knickers in a twist if someone else doesn't
This. Should be stickied
No Fabio Casartelli
This daily fail piece is yet another example of public misunderstanding of science. The man's comments are given more credence because of his position but his opinions are not based on a systematic study and are as subject to bias as anyone elses, perhaps more so as he only sees a particular group of injured cyclists.
And that's assuming that he hasn't been completely misquoted and taken out of context.
Well i split a helmet in two in a crash a while back. I felt a teeny bit woozy, and had a friction burn on my head from the pad against my forehead.
Pretty sure i wouldn't have fared so well if it had been only my skull that took the impact.
I'll keep wearing mine.
I should imagine it depends very much on the overall impact. If you get hit by a lorry at 50mph nothing is going to make a difference, but a car at 20mph could make the difference between life and death.
Having broken a few helmets mountain-biking I wouldn't be without one off-road. Last time I dislocated my shoulder after landing on my head. Think it would have been a gonna...
Spin what he actually said was in the context of road riding and in conjuction with what he wears on the bike.
When I dont wear a helmet, took socks in everyone gives me a wide berth. In cycling gear I look SOFT TARGET CENTRAL
I should imagine it depends very much on the overall impact. If you get hit by a lorry at 50mph nothing is going to make a difference, but a car at 20mph could make the difference between life and death.
Having broken a few helmets mountain-biking I wouldn't be without one off-road. Last time I dislocated my shoulder after landing on my head. Think it would have been a gonna...
I think, to be fair, the actual impact reduction capability of a just-passes-the-CEN helmet is actually pretty damn small. It's an old standard, there's no CE2 for it, really not great that. So yeah, they're definitely limited. But useless? Not convinced at all.
(I do think it's weird that kneepads don't have the same acceptance as helmets- the protection is actually higher, knees are pretty bloomin delicate, and IME they take a lot more solid hits than heads)
[img] 
[/img]
Mass helmet wearing doesn't seem to do much for injury or death rates, in countries where laws have been tried. I gave up wearing one on road many years ago. I do wear one mtbing, as I reckon the chances of hitting my head on a rock or branch at moderate speed (where a helmet is most likely to be effective) are much much higher.
No Fabio Casartelli
Yeah, I know who you were talking about. WW was an example of another pro rider who died whilst racing, but he died despite wearing a helmet. They're not some sort of magic armour. There's no knowing whether or not a helmet would have saved Casartelli, it's just pointless speculation.
Where the injury occured at the top of the head. A helmet would have lessened the impact.
Anything that LESSENS is better than finger in the wind/winging it. Agree?
If you travel at speed a helmet will definitely help in the unfortunate but inevitable off. Also helps your fellow riders, I'm sure they don't want to scrape your scalp and worse off of the object that moved into your way..
No Fabio Casartelli
Yeah, I know who you were talking about. WW was an example of another pro rider who died whilst racing, but he died despite wearing a helmet. They're not some sort of magic armour. There's no knowing whether or not a helmet would have saved Casartelli, it's just pointless speculation.
Wouter Weyland suffered massive facial injuries, his helmet was still in place and looked undamaged. The Docs were cutting the straps in a desperate battle to revive him.
I don't remember Castarelli as well but didn't he slide into a concrete block which are quiet common in France ? Think the top of his head bore the brunt so a helmet may have helped.
Let's face it in them kind of incidents at that speed nothings going to work 100 %, young Taylor Vernon who races for GT Factory Racing smashed his back in last year despite having a back protector on.
Normal riding I think they will make a difference between injury or no injury or at least make things less worse.
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wearing-a-bike-helmet-is-useless/page/2
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/a-different-helmet-debate
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wiggo-on-helmets
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/how-do-you-deal-with-folk-not-wearing-a-helmet
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bike-helmet-for-kids
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-helmet-debate-rumbles-on-in-the-mainstream-media
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/would-you-helmet-nazi-content#post-3139927
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/thank-god-for-helmets#post-3071801
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/so-i-decided-to-write-off-my-helmet-today#post-3015561
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/will-the-uk-every-be-like-this#post-3001646
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/no-helmet#post-2983986
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmets-2#post-2941835
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/this-really-makes-you-want-to-wear-a-lid#post-2919841
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/good-or-bad-advert#post-2894537
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/james-cracknell-wear-a-helmet-video#post-2783611
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bmxers-idiots#post-2758996
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmet-compulsion-again
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wear-a-helmet-kids#post-2705179
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/psa-helmet-debate-on-radio-2-now#post-2584202
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/if-helmets-were-to-be-made-compulsory#post-2573922
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmet-on-your-child-always#post-2482018
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/some-very-sad-news#post-2476001
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-great-helmet-debate#post-2432920
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/compulsory-helmet-law-in-ni#post-2236497
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/how-smug-will-tj-be
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/helmets-possibly-the-last-word
What's your point ken?
I see this has made R4 news...
what a load of crap. It just shows how easy it is to publish an article in Daily fail. Why doesn't he send off his amazing discovery to a peer reviewed journal like Nature and we shall see if it gets published.
When it comes to levels of evidence an "expert opinion" is the lowest type of evidence ever, even a simple observational study is classed as more valuable
[img] 
[/img]
[quote=jedimaster ]When it comes to levels of evidence an "expert opinion" is the lowest type of evidence ever
Apart from anecdote (especially those from cyclists who's helmet "saved my life") that is
Like Henry Marsh, I am going to start riding my bike wearing a cowboy hat and boots.
I'm sure that not only motorists, but most of the general population will start giving me more space.
ride like a drunk, people give you loads of room when you sway violently from side to side. It also hurts less when you crash 😉
In my shop library is a massive tome entitled "Bicycle Accident Reconstruction for the Forensic Scientist" - the general opinion of that book is that helmets are of more use for their visibility effects (bright colours, etc) than for their impact protection.
The problem really is understanding the difference between helmet wearing and helmet compulsion. Wearing a helmet might well be sensible for a lot of people - especially riding off-road where you travel slower and are more likely to fall off, or for young people. Helmet compulsion, on the other hand, makes no sense - it causes a reduction in cycling (and hence an increase in heart attacks etc), and it shifts the emphasis to blaming the victim not solving the safety problems.
(I do think it's weird that kneepads don't have the same acceptance as helmets- the protection is actually higher, knees are pretty bloomin delicate, and IME they take a lot more solid hits than heads)
Good point. Looked at dispassionately, it's effing ridiculous that on most rides I wear a helmet but no knee pads, based on my personal injury history.
I wear a helmet mostly through social compulsion. If there were none of that, I'd wear it a lot less often.
I'd be staggered is a helmet didn't help if you come off and glance your head off a rock, tree, road etc, but i conceed I think most the times it would be useful would be in accidents of my own making...
I'm not so sure its going to help when a lorry rides over me at a junction...but then I don't think anyone on here is really claiming that...
It's clearly an example of someone using their credentials as evidence for their claim - as jedi pointed out, it's one of the lowest forms of evidence going.
Really whacked my head on a low branch - fail to see how it would have been better not wearing a helmet?
Over the bars, landed on head, crease marks from helmet impact on my scalp, plus friction marks/ reddening from helmet impact.
Are the non helmet wearing people really telling me I'd be better off not wearing a helmet?
If this is dismissed as merely 'anecdotal' - I'm fine with that, my helmet may or may not have saved me a trip to a neurosurgeon - but surely some nasty cuts and bruises, for which I'm thankful I wore a helmet.
I can only imagine that the helmet deniers have not had any kind of crash where they landed on their head and had to get a nasty gash stitched up. I can only imagine a helmet denier who's had a head wound stitched up (hours wasted at A&E pain, X-rays etc, returning to have stitches removed etc) who continues to not wear a helmet (I can't imagine the reason why not) must have some un-diagnosed brain damage!
I wear knee pads too.
Really whacked my head on a low branch - fail to see how it would have been better not wearing a helmet?
I had a branch get caught on my helmet causing me to almost crash. I'm 100% certain I would have flown past it without it touching me had I NOT been wearing a helmet!
Are the non helmet wearing people really telling me I'd be better off not wearing a helmet?
I don't think the argument is about being better off I think it's about having or not having a fatal head injury. And I think it's possible that in certain conditions a helmet would make very little difference.
How often is the difference between a fatal and non fatal head injury small enough that a helmet can make the difference?
Highclimber - Is that going to stop you wearing a helmet, if not, why not?
Nah, I always wear my helmet. I was just alluding to the point that anecdotes can go both ways. Not trying to denigrate your point at all.
I can't see the benefit of not wearing a helmet. I can see the benefit of wearing one.
If you're not better off not wearing a helmet - why would you not wear one??
I don't see what I've got to gain by not wearing a helmet- enlighten me please.
What is it that's so good about not wearing a helmet, that it's better than a possible trip to A&E? I've yet to hear a compelling case set forth.
I used to ride without a helmet, I even did 2 alps holidays without one. Then I started wearing one and crashed, put a huge dent in the side of the helmet on a rock and was still concussed, If I hadn't have had it on I am quite sure I would not have gotten up and got home on my own legs. This is proof enough of what an idiot I was not wearing one.
futon river crossing - Member
I can't see the benefit of not wearing a helmet.
Try reading the thread or any of the others on the topic.
OK I'll start you off - rotational injuries, risk compensation, less space from drivers, narrow range of collisions in which it makes a significant difference...
(I wear one mostly BTW, I'm just not going to blindly tell others they should).
Yet you'd still wear a helmet? Why?
If i'm bimbling about on my local trails (sometimes with the dog) i don't wear a helmet, in fact i don't think i've wore my helmet once this year and that included a week up at Aviemore with my mtb and my tripster cross/roadie, however these days i ride at a snails pace compared to how i rode a few years ago. If i took a 30 min drive to my local trail centres such as Dalbeattie/Kirroughtree then i'd wear a helmet but i've not been near them for a year.
I used to get through a few helmets per year (and i guess they contributed to prevention of serious injury) but that was more to do with a riding style where i had to push it 10/10ths every time i went out but i can no longer ride like that so i just bimble these days.
[img] 
[/img]
[img] 
[/img]
I figure that would've hurt without a helmet.
I'm not telling anyone to do anything - I'm asking for the compelling reasons/benefits for not wearing a helmet, I'm thinking primarily for off-road as that is all I do.
Because in lots of situations, for me, it probably makes a small positive difference, and I'm just used to it.
What is it that's so good about not wearing a helmet, that it's better than a possible trip to A&E? I've yet to hear a compelling case set forth.
If you live in a world where wearing a helmet means that going to A&E is not a possibility then I'd imagine it may well seem a sensible choice for you.
I'm not telling anyone to do anything - I'm asking for the compelling reasons/benefits for not wearing a helmet, I'm thinking primarily for off-road as that is all I do.
There's no real compelling reasons. The main benefit I can see is that you don't have to go through the process of worrying about not wearing a helmet if you're not wearing a helmet. So I'm about to go to the nearest shop to buy some crisps, I'll be cycling off-road and not wearing a helmet. I won't be crashing*, so wearing a helmet for this journey offers no benefits, so why would I?
*Of course I can't guarantee that I won't crash, just as I can't guarantee the sun's going to rise tomorrow, but I'm happy with the odds and the consequences.
I'm not telling anyone to do anything - I'm asking for the compelling reasons/benefits for not wearing a helmet, I'm thinking primarily for off-road as that is all I do.
For me, it's because I do a bunch of different things which could cause head injuries - drive a car, climb trees, do DIY on the roof, etc. It doesn't make sense to me to single out one activity to wear a helmet - if head injuries worried me that much, I'd wear one for lots of activities.
FWIW I rode a flat traffic free offroad route with my kids and everyone - lets be kind and call them occasional cyclists- looked at us like we were taking our lives into our own hands
One father even spoke to me about it and how dangerous it was whilst hi skids ran around the playground with no helmets on - I said there would be more injuries here than on the route we rode.
I'm asking for the compelling reasons/benefits for not wearing a helmet, I'm thinking primarily for off-road as that is all I do.
Risk perception??
Would you ride everything you do without a helmet? If the answer is no it makes you reckless
FWIW I wear a helmet for any ride that is not an off road pootle
I agree horaAnything that LESSENS is better than finger in the wind/winging it. Agree?
I'm actually happy to have the choice and always choose to wear a helmet, I rarely pootle and often bounce on my bonce, so my odds of it making a difference are quite high 😀
I just want to avoid compulsion, because the evidence is inconclusive and as can be seen on any cycling forum devisive.
Just got back. Did have one amusing incident. Going along the final lane a Mercedes got impatient at having to wait 10 seconds to a passing space, and decided when it accelerated past to make full use of it's horn - toad of toad hall style, only to then have to immediately stand on the brakes because of an on coming car.
I have an old school bicycle horn like this on my bike
[img] 
[/img]
Which I took great delight on tooting away on while he tried to get past the other car 😀
I figure that would've hurt without a helmet.
Pictures of a broken helmet or two are not really evidence that you would have sustained a major injury (though I suspect it would have hurt without it as you point out). As such, this is possibly the only reason to wear a helmet - not because it will prevent serious injury but that it effing hurts when you bang your head!
Helmets are rigid polystyrene i.e. not the strongest of materials. I reckon I could break one with my bare hands.
They are actually quite tough to break, I had to jump on my last damaged one to finish it off.
I wear a cowboy hat and cowboy boots. I look completely mad.
And then he opens his mouth and proves it.
I had to jump on my last damaged one to finish it off.
And had it been on a dome shape rather than a floor, it would have survived that too.
I was a motorcyclist in the 1970s. Same bunch of stupid arguments.
I was a motorcyclist in the 1970s. Same bunch of stupid arguments.
And did that change the injury statistics much?
I've only had one cycling partner carted off to hospital (with his skull exposed), and he wasn't wearing a helmet.
In my experience helmet wearers have more successful crashes.
I wasn't wearing a helmet for my most recent crash and it resulted in 5 stitches in my forehead and part of my ear being ripped off but no concussion. For this accident a rugby scrum cap would have been far better than a bicycle helmet. My reasoning is that the first body part that hit the ground was my shoulder which absorbed most of the impact before my head hit the ground. Had I been wearing a helmet the first part of my body to hit the ground would have been my head. Whilst some of the impact would have been absorbed by the helmet I'm not sure it would have been enough to avoid brain injury.
I think that modern bicycle helmets increase the size of your head far too much and can result in unnecessarily hard impacts to the head because they don't allow more of your body to hit the ground first and absorb the impact. I'd like to see designs that minimize the profile, especially for kids helmets. For young children helmets can almost double the size of the head.
One thing that does surprise me is people's reactions when I tell them the full story about the accident. The reason I crashed was a combination of riding home in a force 9 gale after having drunk 8 pints at the pub. People aren't particularly critical of the fact that I was very drunk in conditions that were dangerous but do think that not wearing a helmet was very irresponsible. To me that just shows how twisted people's attitudes to bicycle safety have become thanks to the ridiculous focus that helmet wearing is given in both the cycling and mainstream media. Helmet use should be topic number 93 in the debate and yet sometimes it seems like the be all and end all.
I still don't wear a helmet when riding on the road (I do off road) but I have stopped riding drunk.
I don't understand why wearing or not wearing a plastic hat so bothers some people. WGAF..if you like em wear one, if you don't, don't.
The objections come when a cyclist is considered 'irresponsible' for not wearing a helmet after being hit by a badly driven multi-ton vehicle.
I wear a helmet to ride off road - I'm tall so I tend to hit my head on things, plus I ride stuff that tests me technically so that I'm likely to run out of ability and come off occasionally and in an uncontrolled way.
Secondly, in winter it keeps my head warm (with something underneath) and in summer keeps the sun off.
I don't wear a helmet to ride to the shops - i'm not doing anything dangerous that I'm going to come off the bike due to my own actions and in the event that someone runs me over a plastic hat is not going to make an appreciable difference.
^ This
Certainly need this debate. Hasn't been on the forum for a good few months.
Carry on!
I find interesting the apparent claim that drivers treat cyclists differently if wearing a helmet or not .
Where can I get a cycle helmet similar in graphic design to the one pictured and would it make a difference.
[img] 
[/img]
I think that modern bicycle helmets increase the size of your head far too much and can result in unnecessarily hard impacts to the head because they don't allow more of your body to hit the ground first and absorb the impact. I'd like to see designs that minimize the profile, especially for kids helmets. For young children helmets can almost double the size of the head.
I tend to agree with this. I've bashed my head a couple of times (albeit not too hard) and I'm fairly sure I wouldn't have had I not have been wearing a helmet. I also once caught my helmet on a low hanging branch, pulling my head back, which could have been more serious if I was going faster. I'm not necesarilly saying it outweighs the benefits, but a helmet does seem to make your head a bigger target area, making it more prone to hits. It could be an area for helmet design to improve.