Zone 2 on a turbo trainer…

@weeksy https://crickles.casa/ will give you a ballpark FTP (from power data) and Lactate Threshold Heart Rate from heart rate data from your whole history on Strava, once you give the site permissions. There’s a “HR Zones” tab based on the site’s current LTHR estimate for you.

They have now been retitled to “sustainable levels” on the site. I noticed a year or so back after getting the link from a post here ~4 years ago, that there was something “wonky” going on with their approach ~2 years ago, because it would lower FTP/LTHR estimates simply because you had uploaded a gentle pootle! I’d suggest taking the highest values of the last ~6 weeks as your ballpark, unless you have been ill since, or you didn’t do any ~20min+ efforts in that time period.

@n0b0dy0ftheg0at

Thanks 🙂

I’m just imagining all these solo cyclists out on the lanes, chatting away (or singing) to themselves to stay in the “conversational” zone 2! 😂

You’ve got to beat the Z2 boredom somehow 😀

What are you’ll chatting to yourselves about though?!

I just go on breathing, you can tell when it changes/goes from easy to more air required..

I write these posts <breath> whilst <breath> using voice <breath> type 👍🏻

I’d just like to point out that there are lots of ways to be fast on a bike.

Just one example – if you are on an undulating time trial course, you could smash out the hills and go easier on the descents, or you could keep a constant power. Two riders might complete the course in the same time but one might’ve done a series of sprints and the other a constant 22 minute effort. The sprinty rider might end up quicker if they train to ride steadily, but they also might end up slower if they neglect their high intensity work.

There are many ways to achieve some goals, and only one to achieve others. ‘Fast on a bike’ is not really a specific definition of a goal – and yet, at the same time it is.

TTing was about the only thing I was actually good at.

To be fastest on a TT, spend less time going slow (go hard on the slow bits – hills).

I thought this was useful and relevant (and probably not worth starting a seperate thread on)

From Martin @ wattkg.com which I think is an excellent wee blog.

Key points for me is that, as I’ve discovered this year’ trying any sort of structured intensity week in-week out doesn’t work for me, injuries and illness and general life stress etc.

If I can just focus on doing Z2 whenever possible and when I get outside on the bike at the weekend maybe go hard on a couple of climbs or favourite gravel sections or something then I think I can find a happy medium.

“I recently asked a big number of cyclists on my newsletter (>2000) one important question:

“What is your number one source of frustration in your training?”

(thanks to everyone who answered)

Among the many replies, one stood out like a sore thumb.

Time.

More precisely, not having enough time for training. This was by far the most frequent reply.

So I wanted to grab the bull by the horns and discuss a solution for the time-crunched cyclists (spoiler alert: it’s NOT to increase intensity).

The combination of work, family (children!) and social commitments may leave a rather small time window for your weekly training.

In my experience, many riders try to solve this problem in a way that is counter-productive.

Imagine the following:

You’re going through a period with very limited time for training. To compensate for few training hours you focus on higher intensity. Threshold and high intensity intervals. Fast-paced endurance rides.

This arguably induces a greater level of training stimulus than training at lower intensities.

However, it’s also a high-risk strategy. A bit like making a short cut across a mine field.

Why?

Because your ability to tolerate frequent intensity work rests upon your base of training hours.

What tends to happen is that your intervals and tempo rides produce a high degree of post-workout fatigue. Which requires recovery.

Now factor in your time-crunched life:

rest is already in poor supply
stress hormones are high
meal quality and frequency is poor
sleep is probably not in excess
​

Not a great state for your body in which to recover from high densities of training stress.

So you end up with a poor stress:recovery balance. -> Which leads to poor leg freshness. -> Which accumulates through further tempo and interval sessions. -> Until the point where you either go into overreaching, injuries or illness. And you need to take a forced break from training.

Which brings you quickly back to square one. Zero improvement. Stale performance.

Sound like someone you know?

Here is what I propose as a better alternative…

WHAT: Waiver the utopia of achieving a constant upward trending fitness curve.

Instead, break your emphasis into two deliberate focuses:

Maintenance
Development
​

Point 1: In time-crunched periods, focus on maintenance.

Accept the fact that for the next weeks (or months, or even year) you may not achieve much improvement. Instead, focus on maintaining your current fitness level. And happily accept any smaller improvements that may come your way.

WHY: Because this is a far more sustainable approach. It’s also, a great deal more enjoyable. Your quality of life tends to improve.

HOW: Do comfortable low intensity rides mostly. With a dash of regular high intensity work in modest amounts (example: 80% of your regular HIT interval session, performed x 1 every 10 days or so).

THE GREAT PARADOX: The enhanced consistency induced by this strategy may in time result in better maintenance of your fitness. And possibly greater development(!) As compared to the high-risk high intensity approach that often ends in forced training cessation.

Point 2: Here is bonus benefit of this strategy…

…when a more flexible time-window presents, you already have a well-maintained aerobic base. So you can go straight into a short build period and achieve strong fitness for racing.

One of the readers who responded to my initial question is a time-crunched medical doctor. He reported the following experience with this exact strategy:

“I add longer sessions when I have extra time and most of the year I train at zone 1 and 2 (my comment: low & moderate intensity) to build aerobic capacity. I add zone 3 (me: high intensity) and threshold sessions only when I approach key events and peaks which for me only come twice a year. With this approach I rarely see increases in FTP until build periods but my “endurance” at any intensity has slowly been increasing over time. This has also allowed me to avoid illness and injury and increase my training volume throughout the year, year over year.”

(Shared with consent, thanks a bunch T.S.)

To sum up the take-aways for time-crunched cyclists:

⛔ Do NOT replace lack of hours with added intensity. It’s rarely sustainable over time, you tend to crash and burn.
✅ Accept your “losses” and focus on maintenance. Practice sustainable endurance rides with regular small amounts of intensity work (just enough for maintenance)
🎢 A short build period off of a strong baseline of LIT consistency can give strong fitness for racing (and is more sustainable over time).
​

Hoping this advice can be of use to you. Thanks to everyone who responded to my questionnaire.

PS! Would you like a more personal approach for how YOU can beat stagnation and break through to a new level of performance?

If so, my TRIBE membership provides affordable training plans + you get access to me to discuss your options and approach. I’m telling you now because I’m currently adding some new features to the TRIBE membership. Therefore, the price will go up Sunday the weekend to come.“

If anyone’s interest has been piqued by all this- Joe Friels Bible is still the best way to wrap your head around it I think.

The nature of forums means it’s easy for points to get lost and to embark on tangents about minutia.

So stepping back to way beyond what the OP was even asking a minute, it does all start with your objectives. Humour me here/ I’m practicing my knowledge as much as claiming it is definitive 🤣

What do you want to achieve?
For most people, that involves some variation of ‘get fitter’.

Everything above about 20s is an aerobic effort. You are powering your muscles by burning fuel to produce ATP.
That’s done in the mitochondria.
So how do we improve the function of our mitochondria?
By applying a load.
Load = stress which when you next recover = adaptation.
The body seeks to make you stronger to avoid the stress being stressful.
It adds a bit more on at the same time to make sure. That’s super-compensation.

Okay brill. So zwift races are stressful right?
Yes!
So the more of those I do, the stronger I’ll get right?
Yes! The TR/Zwift race/Sufferfest bump is real. You get better at using your type 2 muscle fibres (the strong but lazy ones) to pedal a bike.
Your cells love it too- all that sugar flying around is easy to burn so you feel great doing it!
So you do more and more.

And then the plateau comes…

Burning sugar produces lactate. Right now you are burning sugar and producing lactate. Not much but some.
At some point, you cannot deal with any more lactate being produced. You have maxed out the sugar burning potential of your type 2 fibres and the rest of the lactate is leaking into your type 1 muscle fibres and ending up in your blood.

So what now?

Well! Lactate is a fuel. Your relentless but weak type 1 fibres can actually mop up this spare lactate and use it to produce ATP!

Sounds great right?
Yes! It’s awesome. It’s why Pog can do 350w and still not trouble the Talk Test.

So how do I train these type 1 bad boys to eat more lactate?
Stress them.

How do I do that?
Ride at the highest possible intensity that your Type 1’s can handle without calling in the type 2 lads. They will get tired, your body will adapt and they will get stronger.

Ok brill- what’s the max intensity I can ride at and not get the bully boy type 2’s muscle in and flexing?
2mmol lactate.
(Above that, more 2’s get recruited and so you burn more sugar. More sugar= more lactate, so the type 1’s get swamped and stressed in a non-good way. Instead of the adaption signal being “build better mitochondria in the type 1’s!” it goes back to “throw more sugar at the type 2’s”. )

Cool- I don’t have a lactate meter with me at all times though?
Okay- so ride so you can talk but someone would know you were exercising, as GCN’s Si demonstrates with a lab test- it’s a great proxy.

Okay brill. I’ve done this for ages and now I can do my old ftp at under the talk test! And I was even able to anihilate a TT at a much lower HR than usual 😎
Yes that’s because your type 1’s were sucking in lactate and helping out for longer. Good isn’t it!

But I still get dropped when everyone smashes it on the hills 😞

Have you been training your type 2 fibres as well?
No- you said ride slow to go fast. I did and I did but now I still can’t go fast enough.

Ah yes- well you still need to train those fibres too.

How often?
20% of the time.

So like, 80/20 easy/hard?
Yes!

Thanks.

The end 🤣🤣🤣

Sorry- I can’t believe someone posted a longer post than mine whilst I was typing it 🤣🤣

It’s probably less reading to just read a book on it by now 🤣🤣

SO i can only enjoy 1/5 of my rides 🙁

😉

Reading your Zwift race reports- that’s more than you do at the minute 🤣🤣 😉

Sorry- I can’t believe someone posted a longer post than mine whilst I was typing it

Ctrl + V 😉

I’m actually now considering if the £59 for a Lactate meter might be worth it, out of curiosity if nothing else. Anyone want to chip in? (half serious actually, why not 😎)

D’oh

D’oh + 1

Out of curiosity, what do they do ? Or put another way, what would you do if it’s not Z2 as per Crosshairs thoughts ?

Some of them just have ace genetics – I suspect, for example, that I could have spent my life mirroring Nick Craig’s training / riding and he would still cruise off into the distance on every ride. Likewise, Pogacar isn’t the rider he is solely because he does a shedload of zone 2, he is prodigiously gifted to start with.

Bottom line, you’re not aiming to be fast in Pog terms, you’re aiming to be fast enough for your own needs / wants. For a lot of us, just riding a fair bit, enjoying it and maybe topping up the top-end with some intense intervals / smashing hills for a laugh is going to be enough for that.

The curse of Zwift and smart trainers etc, is that it’s thrown us into a world of repeatable metrics none of which measure simply how happy you are with your riding. I particularly love that people spends hours on Zwift training like a dog so they can do races on Zwift. It’s like that terrible metaverse ad. Anyway, I get the fascination with this stuff, but not to the point where I’m prepared to sit in zone 2 on a turbo. On the road is a different matter.

Sorry, I don’t want to come across as argumentative, I just don’t really see how you can train zone 2 consistently indoors without killing all your brain cells in the process. Maybe that’s the point 😉

I just don’t really see how you can train zone 2 consistently indoors without killing all your brain cells in the process. Maybe that’s the point 😉

It was the OPs point : ) If you can do Z2 work done with a brisk dog walk/jog, maybe the next Q is does that benefit cycling muscles anywhere near the same way as Z2 on a bike outdoors would – does Z2 work cause localised changes or is it a general cardio system change?

Likewise, Pogacar isn’t the rider he is solely because he does a shedload of zone 2

Aha… who’s his coach?

I’d like to know more about that too, since replacing lots of sweetspot with Z2 (or Z1 HR on the 3 zone model) last autumn I found I was much fresher and able to ride hard for longer when spring/summer finally rolled around.

We’d also had a dog and was walking roughly an hour a day, although much lower down in the Z1 range. Often wondered if that may have contributed, possibly in some small way?

Anyway, I get the fascination with this stuff, but not to the point where I’m prepared to sit in zone 2 on a turbo. On the road is a different matter.

Turbo z2 is for when it’s too shitty, dark or both outside to ride.

I just don’t really see how you can train zone 2 consistently indoors without killing all your brain cells in the process

Netflix.

Not sure where I mentioned it recently- far too many Z2 threads going on around the web 😂

But Adam Hansen got second in an early season race on a diet of mostly hiking because his team never sent him any wheels. His coached concurred it was great base.

Aha… who’s his coach?

Yeah, I know who his coach is. My point though is that he’s a genetic freak, mostly the rest of us are in potential fast donkey territory. He could probably do nothing at all and ride faster than all of us.

He still has the same physiology though. The work drIsm has been doing with George Brooks is about how beneficial Z2 training is for everyone. In fact it’s most important of all for pre-diabetic and diabetic folk!

Yeah, I know who his coach is. My point though is that he’s a genetic freak, mostly the rest of us are in potential fast donkey territory. He could probably do nothing at all and ride faster than all of us.

Of course but even genetic freaks train hard.

From Cyclist.co.uk San Millán on Pogačar –

Is that ability to recover genetic? ‘In my opinion there are three things,’ says San Millán. ‘The main one is genetics – he has that recovery capacity. The second is his mentality. Three weeks in a Grand Tour can be psychologically hard for anybody but Tadej is very calm. He doesn’t feel the pressure, the stress.

‘The third thing is that we’ve been training a lot to improve his lactate clearance capacity and increase mitochondrial function, which of course is partly genetic. And what that means is that day by day he is not as tired as the others.

I did the Ironman without touching a bike for 6 months except 2 vomit inducing 2 39 minute spin classes a week. Then only did 6 bike rides before the race, the third ride being 102 miles at around 18mph without stopping which is fast for me, I know its not for many on this thread.

However I was running at least 5 hours a week in Zone 2 and swimming about 4 hours again all in Zone 2 for most of the time before I got on the bike. So I’d say the benefit is transferable especially with some high intensity specific training thrown in.

I’m about 20 mins into this and dr Seiler answers a lot of things we’ve discussed quite well.
I wanted to go and see him deliver it live but couldn’t make that evening sadly.

Apologies if I’ve missed it, but as an example, if I have 7 hours of time per week to train, that is 3 hours on a Sunday and one hour four times a week. I currently do:-
Sunday long steady ride. Struggle to keep it in Zone 2. Pretty much every hill takes me to Zone 4 HR.
Monday is a 45 min Zone 2 spin. Boring as heck, but indoor.Treated as a recovery ride.
Tuesday is a hard 1 hour to 1:30 interval session on Sufferfest.
Wednesday is a shorter interval session on Sufferfest.
Rest day Thursday.
Friday is a zone 2 easy ride.
Rest day Saturday (family day)

Should I bin of those midweek intervals and just do zone 2? But then do I treat my long ride as the 20% hard ride and do intervals by hammering hills etc?

I was coached previously, was lucky enough to be part time so focused on my racing. I did mainly lactate threshold training, which appears to be what is being discussed above. Being honest I always struggled with understanding it, hence why I needed a coach to tell me what to do.

And apologies about making this about me, I’ve tried to understand what is being said but it makes my brain hurt translating it into a personal approach.

I do have longer to train but would really struggle with the zone 2 rides indoors. I work away in the week so they are all gym Wattbike rides.

I love tackling other peoples training conundrums but I’m a fat Cat 3 so take everything I say in that context 🤣

I guess it depends on what your goal is- and when. Specificity gets more important closest to any event.

But if it’s just for health and general fitness then you can do more or less the same all year round.

Would this be feasible?

Monday- switch to day off
Tuesday- sufferfest HIIT 1h
Wednesday- 30min easy endurance
Thursday- 90min upper Z2
Friday- 60min easy endurance or upper Z2 if feeling good.
Saturday- rest
Sunday- 3h ideally mid-upper Z2. Buy more gears 😉

That will give you 2/10 training days as HIIT.

I’d look at Tuesday and Thursday as your days to seek progression. Really smash your Tuesday intervals and really push the top of your Z2 on a Thursday.
Friel talks about splitting workouts into either breakthrough or recovery. Then planning your week to roughly alternate the two.

Thanks Crosshair, I should have said my goal….just to race Crits again next Spring. Previously was 65 to 67kgs, FTP was 307. As the races are only an hour, the focus really was on HIIT. My blocker was my ability to recover quickly, as i’m sure you know, every corner becomes a sprint out of it, every hill the same. When I was younger this was OK, but really become apparent that it was my weakness as I got older….49 now, stopped racing at 46. Plan on racing vets next year.

Your schedule looks good. Will have give it a try from next week. Might mean getting up early on a Thursday to train….I travel back home on a Thursday night after work. Don’t think missus will be pleased if I’m 90 mins late as I stopped by the gym!

With my previous training regimen being so focused on crits, I honestly got to the stage where I hated cycling, I was shattered all the time, progress felt like it wasn’t happening. I’d turn up for a race raring to go, but as soon as the pace went up I’d feel exhausted, the metallic taste of blood in my mouth straight away….if that makes sense?! Im just getting the love for it back after a year of the bike….and my FTP has hit rock bottom (210!! Stop laughing at the back!!) I’m still able to do fairly long rides, not quick, but at this stage it’s just time back in the saddle.

And good point re easier gears. I’ve got Campag EKAR running 40t at the front and 42t rear, great on the road, but off-road I really could do with a couple more gears….38 front me thinks. Thanks again!

Approximately 90 mins hard for 7 hours so I’d probably do the first half of the Sunday ride in Z2 (personally I’d use the 3 zone system and keep my HR below 75% of max), then intervals to take up a good chunk of the second half.

Since you’ve already activated the higher energy systems and would need around 30 mins to drop back down it’s seems pointless to try to shoehorn any more Z2 in so make the most of that second half.

Then bin off the midweek intervals in favour of Z2

Or all day Sunday nice and steady if you can, HR can rise a little on hills but only for very short durations…then Tuesday intervals and easy on Wednesday or vice versa?

Caveat, IANAC just my interpretation!

Should I bin of those midweek intervals and just do zone 2? But then do I treat my long ride as the 20% hard ride and do intervals by hammering hills etc?

This is what I’m considering, if only so I can enjoy the weekend rides and do hills/smashy gravel bits/sprinty muddy bits. Just aiming for 3hrs Z2 during the week. I don’t honestly think I have the dedication to manage it all indoors so might consider gearing down the winter road bike and being ready to grab any opportunities when the weather is reasonable.

This week for me was recovery week on my TrainerRoad program and today I did my 1.5hr z2 ride outside rather than on zwift, so much nicer even if I did whack my hip going down on a slippery wooden section of river footpath! 😩

If I wanted to do regular 1.5hr or longer sessions I’d need a rocker plate for the trainer.

I opted not to do the long outdoor z2 I had planned cos I knew it was going to rain in a cold wet windy kind of way and I think I’ve got a touch of the sickness my wife has. So I’m heading out to the garage in a bit and I can come back in if I feel weak.

I found a perfect route around the Ochils that was largely pan flat for 2 hours and culminated in a long gradual climb, so I managed to stay reasonably close to Z2 for 2hrs then do 20 minutes of sweetspot before the descent and rolling minor roads home.

Mostly felt really good but not for the first time when trying long easy rides I seemed to get my eating all wrong and ended up in a hopelessly cranky foul mood for the rest of the day (not helped by the standard sore hip I get after virtually any ride now and our exceptionally disobedient 5 year old spotting an easy target 🙄).

Still debating a softer saddle or *something* as I was getting quite uncomfortable after 2 hours when I’ve managed 6 hours gravel on the same saddle in the past. Not helped by being unable to stand up out of the saddle for any duration for fear of heart rate spiking…

You can still stand up in z2. Just change up a couple of gears and keep the speed the same.

Yep, I need to do 30 or so pedal revs stood up every 20mins to loosen the legs back out. Well I don’t *need* to but it feels nicer.
I just make sure I don’t push any harder. Your HR goes up as you’re using more muscle mass (arms and core)- not because you’ve necessarily gone out of zone as it were.

HR goes up as you’re using more muscle mass (arms and core)- not because you’ve necessarily gone out of zone as it were.

I did wonder, I tried to keep an eye on speed even when standing, convinced myself halfway round that I *needed* a power meter but I think I’d rather spend the money on a new saddle 😎

Aargh. Have been slowly getting used to the Z2 workouts on the rollers, the time does pass a wee bit slowly but they are becoming more bearable, can comfortably do an hour before ‘rewarding’ myself with a bit of intensity (e.g. 1 HR Z2 yesterday followed by 15min high sweetspot).

Problem is I fixed an issue with my rollers yesterday (the resistance magnet was making contact with the rotor on the drum, noisy!) and it has completely changed the unit resistance, so now I need to relearn the ‘virtual’ power zones all over again 😭

Really just need to pony up for a power meter I think but have just sunk £100 into some new winter tyres 🙄

^ If you’re working to just under aerobic threshold for Z2, is there a reason a PM is better than a HR monitor? I thought you could go to higher or lower HRs to hit a given power level. So on a tired day your Z2 may be over aerobic threshold, whereas your HR may be the better guide of how much O2 you’re needing at that effort level? (idk, asking rather than advising)