Yes, read my post above. I had a few fitness tests when i was training measuring lactate thresholds ,metabolic rates and power. Initially my zone 2 (the main area where i was energy was coming from fat) was rubbish. at 125 bpm i was only using 43% from fat. my zone 2 was 125 – 144. With lots of zone 2 training this moved to 140 – 158. This was the zone i was predominatley still utilising fat as an energy source.

Useful detail thanks. Hence the detail in my Q, how it depends on what defines Z2 – you’re describing a Z2 that’s (i think?) different to the trad HR Z2 which is a % of max or % of FTP etc. And what I’m taking from all this is that the zone banding or % range per zone may be more variable per person or fitness level than I’d realised. Interested to try some other measures of aerobic threshold and see how they align with the general upper Z2 I use (which does align with perception of breathing levels etc, maybe not others tho).
Basically, this –

What I think is being better explained by Inego San Milan and Seiler arc at the minute (although it’s in Friels books too) is the presence of another threshold. (Your aerobic threshold or VT1 amongst other names for a similar spot).

So when you raise your FTP, you could actually be dragging it up away from your first threshold. Ie the gap between the two could be getting bigger. Which isn’t accounted for in percentage based zones.

z2 turbo work – you definitely get used to it. A few years ago I trained for an Ironman and 90% of the bike work was sat in my front room, on a turbo in the TT position watching Youtube/TV/Listening to podcasts. I probably averaged around 7-10hours a week.

The short 1-2hour mid week sessions would just stick on some race highlights or similar on the TV but for longer 5-7hour sessions I would watch full stages of the TdFrance.

Worked out OK and came out of the winter feeling superhuman on the bike.

Yeah that’s a great point Kryton- the bigger, more efficient your mitochondria, the more lactate they can consume too. So when you do get to an intensity session- you’ll find you can ride harder for longer despite not having training those zones for ages.

I found that in a Zwift race last week, I averaged threshold watts for low tempo HR! My HR was up and down as if on a piece of string.
It was only the real high efforts that were lacking but they take a few short weeks to add back in the spring/summer.

See if your local Uni Sports Science department does blood lactate tests – they often want guinea pigs for students to work on. Cheap way of finding you real zones based on blood lactate.

might do that .. got a way to go to get back some fitness lost this year

Glad I posted this as the Z2 stuff has been dull and I’ve n ot really been feeling any gain from it (although yesterday’s ride felt better than normal, so maybe improvements are there).

Right, I’ll stick with the Z2 efforts…unsure how many of these I need to do before I start seeing less ‘High Aerobic Shortage’ message as it has been there since I started these sessions 9 weeks ago!

there were still times on inclines where my heart rate would start to come up & I was worried

I just stop for a couple of minutes

I’m just about okay 🤣

Ug, I missed the Garmin element, my Garmin tells me at times that I need 72hours recovery from a 20 minute warm up! I don’t base anything on what my Garmin tells me now…

On a more practical note, is it worth changing saddles for Zone 2 turbo work? I managed 60 minutes yesterday with my most padded shorts that I usually save for long gravel rides, but was still finding some pressure points. Just wondering if getting something more padded might help. I’m on rollers so should be moving around a wee bit more than if on a turbo… Not sure if there is a more padded version of the Fizik Antares, but I think Selle Italia do more padded versions of the Flite which is a similar shape..

I don’t really follow what my Garmin says but fair play- it’s all beautifully presented on the app 🤩

Like the OP i find zone 2 on the turbo really boring, equally trying to run in zone 2 is really hard. Even having backed off my normal pace by 1minute/km Im still in zone 3

Dylan Johnson has a decent video(s) on this, with some interview with Sieler in another

Just wondering if getting something more padded might help.

I find less padded actually helps (although some is needed), I recently bought some gonso sqlabs cycling shorts which are excellent.

I did a 10 mile run jog yesterday in Z2, which was just under 8min/mile pace (average HR 123bpm).

Can’t imagine getting into Z2 walking.

Either way – god it was boring 😀

I tried a Z2…. i failed.

Ug, I missed the Garmin element, my Garmin tells me at times that I need 72hours recovery from a 20 minute warm up! I don’t base anything on what my Garmin tells me now…

I always interpreted this as 72 hours before adding intensity as opposed to nothing but Z1…seems to fit better!

Walking fast puts me into z2. I can’t run without being in Z4 though.

my Garmin tells me at times that I need 72hours recovery from a 20 minute warm up!

Did you just get it? Mine did daft things at first before it learned how fit I actually am.

crosshair

Yeah that’s a great point Kryton- the bigger, more efficient your mitochondria, the more lactate they can consume too. So when you do get to an intensity session- you’ll find you can ride harder for longer despite not having training those zones for ages.

I saw an article or video or something about this a while back that mentioned a lot of people plateau because they concentrate on only high-intensity & they reach a point where their low-twitch muscle development doesn’t keep up, so they are limited by how much lactate they can process which hits a ceiling.
I think to an extent this is where I have ended up, hence why I have decided to try more of the lower intensity riding.

What I found interesting about the ride I did on Sunday was that even though it was ‘only’ 41km/100 mins with an average HR of 141 and a max of 155, I found it surprisingly fatiguing towards the end. I think I was probably erring on the side of caution with not going too high on effort, so might push a bit harder next time for a higher average HR. But my legs were definitely starting to tire.

Yes! Z2 isn’t easy. Especially if you’re not used to it. When you think you accumulate maybe 20-40 mins of ‘work’ during an interval session- 1×60/90/100/120/180 @ 75% ftp doesn’t actually sound so simple.

And what you describe is that classic “new to TR/Zwift/Sufferfest” bump. Once you’ve experienced that, you have to then go back and build the base you should have done first 🤣

Yes! Z2 isn’t easy.

Yeah. I used to train with a powermeter and a coach, and I did loads. But that was years ago – I only recently regained a power meter and I’ve been for a few 3-4hr road rides. I was surprised how badly I was flagging 3hrs into yesterday’s – legs pretty shredded, even though it was really relaxed at first. My base fitness has clearly diminished and I’m relying on glycogen metabolism rather than fat.

I found it surprisingly fatiguing towards the end. / Yes! Z2 isn’t easy.

Indeed – some of the hardest days of training for last years Pivot 12h solo was getting up at 7am on Sunday to face a second 3-4hrs of Z2 for the weekend. I question whether I’ll ever do it again.

there were still times on inclines where my heart rate would start to come up & I was worried

I just stop for a couple of minutes

An ebike would sort this issue.

Useful detail thanks. Hence the detail in my Q, how it depends on what defines Z2 – you’re describing a Z2 that’s (i think?) different to the trad HR Z2 which is a % of max or % of FTP etc.

yep, thats why i went down the testing route. What also surprised me is i didn’t need to do very long rides in zone 2 to improve my base. I did 1hr (on rollers to make it more interesting) for each session. At times this was twice a day. 1hr at lunch and 1hr in the evening. After doing this muy aerobic base point went from using 43% of energy from fat to 83% which meant i didn’t really bonk anymore

I do think that Z2 on a turbo is more time-effective than in real life. It’s pretty difficult to keep in z2 all the time on a real road – anyone who’s tried this with a power meter knows that you have to really dawdle up climbs and hammer like a nutter down them which means you end up going really fast and, at least round here, often too fast for the road conditions if there are houses and parked cars etc. And there are always junctions and roundabouts etc. I got quite good at managing this by riding down hills and powering towards junctions with the brakes on, but it’s a bit daft. On a trainer however it’s easy to spend nearly 100% of your time at z2 – I only stop pedalling to give my arse a rest every ten minutes or so.

@trickydisco that’s interesting. I may try to knock out z2 during the week days as well as at weekends. I have a feeling that an hour of z2 is going to be fairly low stress. I might need to buy some more cycling gear though!

I do think that Z2 on a turbo is more time-effective than in real life.

agree 100%. It’s much more concentrated. This was prescribed from a coach in Bristol at the time. It worked really well for me. Beforehand my base fitess was awful and often woudl bonk on longer rides. He said thats because i was caning through glycogen rather than fat. As an efficient machine i was crap!

I do think that Z2 on a turbo is more time-effective than in real life.

There is also some maths somewhere about coasting & micro variations in power which shows that constant power on a turbo is something roughtly/like 1 an 1/3rd “more”

E.G. a constant 2hrs Z2 Turbo reflects 3hrs outdoors.

This was prescribed from a coach in Bristol at the time. It worked really well for me. Beforehand my base fitess was awful and often woudl bonk on longer rides. He said thats because i was caning through glycogen rather than fat. As an efficient machine i was crap!

Same for me. My 2021 12hr solo top ten was 10hr 26 mins on the power with an average of 195w over a 11:05hr duration. My Z2 range is 168w-221w. It was the long hours of Z2 turbo that contributed to that.

I didn’t ride to a constant deliberately but did ride to minimise hard efforts and to avoid coasting wherever I could.

This was prescribed from a coach in Bristol at the time. It worked really well for me. Beforehand my base fitess was awful and often woudl bonk on longer rides. He said thats because i was caning through glycogen rather than fat. As an efficient machine i was crap!

Yeah, I’ve posted this many times before but that was me. However, I fixed it with endless long slogs through dark winter weekday nights – two split turbo sessions in front of Netflix would have been vastly easier!

The most interesting thing for me in this thread is that Kryton can ride at 37.5kph for 2hrs 40minutes in Zone 2, yet he still agonizes on here about his race fitness.

The most interesting thing for me in this thread is that Kryton can ride at 37.5kph for 2hrs 40minutes in Zone 2, yet he still agonizes on here about his race fitness.

Unfortunately being able to do that doesn’t make me an XCO/XCM race winner.

What also surprised me is i didn’t need to do very long rides in zone 2 to improve my base. I did 1hr (on rollers to make it more interesting) for each session. At times this was twice a day. 1hr at lunch and 1hr in the evening. After doing this muy aerobic base point went from using 43% of energy from fat to 83% which meant i didn’t really bonk anymore

That is interesting, I thought longer was needed – takes me 20-30 mins to feel warmed up on av Z2 rides. But, though not sure w/o testing, I think my metabolism is already pretty well adapted from a lot of base/fasted riding, distance riding etc. I hardly eat on rides unless going at a decent pace, can do long rides in Z2 on empty (not convinced it’s a beneficial thing to do often though). Still, may try 1hr Z2 turbo session on rainy days. Podcast and pedal.

I think the efficacy of z2 depends hugely on your genetics.

Some people already have more type I muscle fibres, so they are better at long slow efforts, so that’s what they do – they don’t like sprinting much, they don’t do it, and a bike ride means a long steady 4hr spin through the countryside with a banana half way round, and of course they burn what little fat they have and become even better adapted to it.

Some people have more type II, so they are powerful and like smashing it everywhere. Technical MTBing provides ample opportunities to redline it on singletrack and power up those tricky climbs. They can do this well because they have more sprint power and they end up enjoying it more, so they do it more. It depletes glycogen, so they get chug gels on the way round and binge when they get home to replenish, because having low glycogen makes you crave carbs.

I think this is why there are so many more tubby MTBers than roadies.

So if you are the latter kind of person genetically then you benefit much more from lots of z2 riding than if you are the former. I was told that if you’re a sprinter it’s possible to increase your type I/II ratio and become much better at endurance, but if you’re an endurance rider you can’t go the other way very effectively.

Maybe, I don’t know. I expect it makes a difference once you’re getting to higher race levels but for the rest of us riding is a mix of short sharp efforts and steady outputs and yeah, you often develop what you’re good at because it’s either easier or more rewarding. Took me a while to get away from being pretty bad with energy management (since I was young) to being efficient over long rides.

Right, I’m off to do an hour in Z2 on the turbo which will be a first..

I think the efficacy of z2 depends hugely on your genetics.

Yep. This is what I discovered via being coached. My power curve/endurance is good at Z2, very narrow and poor at Z4/5/6 but I have a pretty strong sprint all of which lent itself to longer distance MTB Like Jameso I’ve never felt the need to eat much on long rides.

… wasn’t as bad as I thought, tbh just sat there pedalling steady upper Z2 with a good podcast on the headphones is not a bad way to spend an hour. I’ve done 30 mins recovery rides there when doing ‘proper’ training but aside from intervals that’s been it.

Back to the OP, I guess it’s a case of what you do to stop an hour feeling like 2. I thought it went by fairly easily listening to a podcast I always find interesting, certainly compared to HI intervals with suitable music on where 4 mins seems a very long time and the whole session is a bit grim (I only have a dumb trainer, CBA with anything complex).

It couldn’t replace outside miles for me but it could be a way to get an hour or 2 added Z2 or sweetspot time in each week. The bit I need convincing on is that 1hr of Z2 is beneficial if I’m already fairly well adapted to base pace, but it certainly is easier on the turbo to hold a pace +/- 3 or 4bpm and stay right on that upper Z2 threshold (assuming I’m using the right measure, which is the next Q).

not a bad way to spend an hour

Lightweight! I ‘challenged’ myself this lunchtime and managed 1hr05m… 😎

Not a great place to be if you’re in a slightly depressed introspective mood as I discovered, heart rate was probably rising just due to going over angry work emails that I’d never send 🙄

Got better at the end when I started focusing on a really smooth pedal stroke and trying to ‘correct’ my weird asymmetry on the pedals, gave me something to focus on.

I’m guessing 75bpm is more recovery/sleep than z2. I may have to change event in 15 mins

assuming I’m using the right measure, which is the next Q)

I’m still using the ‘singing along’ measure which is tricky because I don’t really know the words to many songs. Even brief choruses leave me a wee bit out of breath even at my usual Z2 heart rate/~65% FTP, so either I’m still going too hard or (hopefully) singing along is slightly harder than talking.

It couldn’t replace outside miles for me but it could be a way to get an hour or 2 added Z2 or sweetspot time in each week.

For me, it’s most useful at the weekend when I just can’t be arsed to give up my day on some dull ride or when it’s pissing with rain etc. I can take my own snacks and beverages and watch all the Netflix stuff my wife won’t like in relative comfort.

Lightweight indeed.. Can’t say I’m inspired by people doing 6hr turbo sessions. Well, apart from that story about John Stamstad. The master of dumb training.

Buy some rollers for your Z2 work.

I personally think the people who bemoan turbo work are over-hyping how exciting riding is fullstop 🤣🤣🤣🤣

If you want to hit your goals, you need to put in the volume. Distract the heck out of yourself and get on with it 💪🏻