Zone 2 on a turbo trainer…

@crosshair If you have no reason to doubt the accuracy of your power numbers, I think you might be surprised at your FTP estimate.

What does https://intervals.icu/ , a donate-ware site, suggest your eFTP and eCP are?

Where is eCP? eFTP for the last 42 days is just 300w as it has nothing high intensity to use in the model. (eFTP is 357w for this “season”).

You can add a load (12+?) of custom date ranges and whether it looks at indoor/outdoor/both power numbers to show in the table and graphs at any one time. 😉

Under “options” you can choose 2 parameter CP; 3 parameter CP; eFTP with 3 parameter (default); eCP with 3 parameter.

If you haven’t tried them already, you ought to try introducing some sub 20min sprint races like the Zwift Insider Tiny Races on Saturdays.

I’m trying to stay patient 😀

What a lot of the Poalrised discussions miss is that it is a description of a season’s worth of training. I don’t think the 80/20 split needs to be weekly or even monthly. And as Dylan pointed out in his great graphic- certainly not daily 🤣

And even Tempo work technically falls into the 20% side of things (if vt1 is the easy day/hard day cut off).

I am definitely a little flat on my top end. I do notice it. But I’m telling myself that vo2 work plateaus in just 3 months so that still gives me two more months for Base 3 and Build 1 until I need to start worrying 😀

@crosshair,

so how many hours, what were our zones pre

How many hours a week?
I’m averaging 9h20 on the year at the minute.

I did that same Tempo ride in a very similar fashion back on September 11th ‘22 so that’s a good example. Back then my power for the entire ride (warm up, 2h tempo, quick cool down) was 240w at 158bpm. On Tuesday it was 250w at 155bpm.

My eFTP at that time was something silly like 347w thanks to the chaingang’s, so on paper my Z2 went up to 257w but the HR from that tempo ride shows that was a lie by probably around 20w.

ISM Z2 vs Trad Z2 –

It’s really noticeable what upping your ‘Z2’ limit by 5% or so does for a ride. I’ve done 2 x 2hr loops at the ISM sort of Z2 limit Vs trad Z2 (Trad as in 60-70% of max or ~66 to 77% of LTHR) so far this week.

Using that talk test after watching the GCN episode (talking to myself on country lanes, they’ll say I’m finally losing it) I can go to 145bpm maybe up to 150 without struggling to talk, just the odd pause or deeper breath. At 150bpm or more I start to get into more exertion type breathing and I know I can only average 155-156 for 60 or 90 mins as a tempo/sweet spot ride (150-165 range) and that leaves me pretty well finished.

So what ISM is saying about Z2 in his terminology makes sense, it’s simply above riding easy and it does go into lower trad Z3 which I’d always thought was the junk miles zone. Riding 132-145bpm range doesn’t feel like it’s pushing me into the ‘effort’ range but it makes hills much more enjoyable compared to gearing down and staying below 135bpm / in trad Z2.
I do think my 5-6hr Z2 rides at this revised upper limit would be much harder than trad Z2 though. I’d usually stayed in the upper end of trad Z2, this would add 7-10bpm to that limit. Interested to see what riding to this new upper limit does for my perceived base fitness as I’ve been riding to trad Z2 limit (approx) during winter road miles for many years.

I think the difference between ISM Z2 and junk miles for me, is in treating it as an intensity day.

I reckon when it comes to build/race time- too much ISM would inhibit your ability to hit the high numbers on interval days just like “junk miles” do.

^ Agree. Junk miles would seem to be more varied intensity so no Z2 build value nor enough HI to make a difference.

For me it’s Z2 ish base time with SS MTB providing the unfocused HI in the background, or turbo trainer interval sessions over 8-12 week blocks if I actually want to get quicker for something specific. I generally use the same interval session for that.
I do find at the start of blocks of these interval sessions that it takes 2-3 sessions before I can hold the efforts fully, like training for the training or shock to the system to get into it. As you say, a lot of base pace and a general lack of HI time outside of MTB.

It’s really noticeable what upping your ‘Z2’ limit by 5% or so does for a ride. I’ve done 2 x 2hr loops at the ISM sort of Z2 limit Vs trad Z2 (Trad as in 60-70% of max or ~66 to 77% of LTHR) so far this week.

It’s amazing what a small difference power can make for sure.

I did a ‘Tour of Zwift’ ride..
205w 214wNP
Couple of days before i did a race.
222w 229w

But the HR average on the tour was 141bpm, against 166bpm for the race…. even though a small difference in power, the overall HR was massively different.

Can’t see how anyone can do anything more that 60 minutes on a turbo at zone 2, even 30 minutes is a chore/bore.

Would rather ride in heavy rain, or go for a walk or swim.

Zone 2 outside can be rather enjoyable. Zone 1 can do one though…..

Can’t see how anyone can do anything more that 60 minutes on a turbo at zone 2, even 30 minutes is a chore/bore.

Netflix

Think people are discussing 2 different levels of Z2 (just to complicate things further) though.

ISM Z2 is at the top end of the zone, even pushing into lower z3 power. Friel calls it “aerobic threshold”, about 30 beats below your lactate HR, +/- a couple of beats. Takes some concentration IME.

^ yes, that was what I took from the GCN talk with ISM.

My trad Z2 upper limit is ~5-7% lower than where I’d ride based on the talk test and the mid talk test level is actually right on 30bpm below my (relatively) trained 20MP LTHR level. ‘ISM Z2’ for me goes up to about halfway into trad Z3.

(all fwiw or for comparison value, seems that the talk test and HR are a fairly good guide in all this and it lines up for me as accurately as I’ll need for generally polarised riding)

No you are right, upper z2 does require some cocentration. I am churning away at mid-low z2 now purely to allow me to watch telly whilst I am doing it. Right now it’s a means for me to get calories out of the door* although it is certainly helping my endurance at the same time,

* ideally faster than the Tesco van delivers them

@n0b0dy0ftheg0at

tried that intervals.cu gave me an eFTP of 161w while wahoo half monty gave me 169w. Not done a continuous 20min FTP since 20th of December.

It’s a handy site, tomorrow I’m hoping to do a short outdoor ride to test the direct ride upload functionality and analysis.

It looks like it could be a good enough tool for me this year to look at any outdoor efforts, rather than pay £55 on Strava.

I’m a sucker for graphs and numbers. Given that it automatically uploads from garmin makes it easy to look at.

Forgot to write earlier that in Intervals site settings, you can tweak the minimum duration length for an eFTP estimate. Personally, I’ve changed mine to 600 seconds, because I’ve lost far less under 5mins than 5-10mins over the past four months of long Covid.

You can also specify the minimum heart rate at which Intervals will give a HRRc figure for an activity, that is the heart rate drop over a minute duration after hitting the specified heart rate. At the mo it’s typically 25-32 for me, but 45-55 was pretty common before last September.

Intervals.icu is way better than Strava.

Strava is crap for analysis, can’t even read/display the correct watts in lap data…it’s just a social platform, nothing else.

That intervals.icu is brill. So easy to compare numbers and see improvements.

Zwifting Z2 for 2:40 with AJ and the ZZRC crew at 9:25 tomorrow if any one feels like joining.

Talk test – for those, like me, who’ve never really gone into training nerdy stuff, this is a good outline of the talk test and what to do with it. Only requires a HRM, though easier indoors and with a power meter.
Talk test
It then suggests the ‘pyramidal’ training that Dylan J talks about. My domestic/work situation and living in the Lakes makes Z2 outside quite tricky, so I’m aiming for 2 or 3 Z2 indoor sessions a week. I quite enjoy it, with Netflix or podcasts and with HRM and power recorded, you know you’ve done it right.

“So now what do you do with this information? Well, a portion of your training needs to be below this VT – perhaps 70-85% (how much depends on a lot of things, such as your goals, how fit you currently are, and where you are in the year). Below your VT, it will feel Moderate to Somewhat Hard – but still conversational. When you train there, you are using predominantly fat as your fuel source. Please don’t misinterpret that to mean you need to be way below your VT, in the so- called “Fat-Burning Zone”. Don’t listen to those silly charts ever again. An aerobic workout does not need to be “Easy”.
Then 10-20% of your training can be right at your VT – this is very effective training and really helps build your aerobic system and can actually raise your lactate threshold. But don’t go there all the time – it’s too much for the body. Even elite cyclists are smart about how much time they spend at or above their VT/LT. For most of you, 1-2X a week.
And then finally, 5-10% of your training can be above your VT – in that Very Hard range. That’s where you cannot talk! Don’t be afraid of that zone, anaerobic training is also important, just don’t do it more than 1X a week for most people, or 2X a week if you’re more fit or are training
for a specific goal. And always do it in intervals with sufficient recovery in between hard efforts.”

Knackered now, 2:40 average 212w/2.6wkg. I think two 14hr days at work adding 220 miles of driving and only 10hrs sleep since Wednesday night wasn’t the best prep…

Well done Kryton 👌🏻

We went out and beat up on the slower of the two group rides going out today. It was in an effort to be disciplined so we can ride again tomorrow but, actually, it was a mega confidence boost for the last four months of work.
As the ride went on, the differential grew larger and more obvious until we were being ushered to ride on alone.
What was most striking was how it wasn’t just at Z2. My mate (another Z2 covert) and I both found our HR’s were on a string- Up and Down almost instantly with the power required to hold the leaders up the climbs. And even after 4hrs out, we felt we could have done another 3hrs.

Very rewarding and gives me plenty of confidence to keep going with the process.

4hrs of ISM Z2 outdoors* today and it felt great ride compared to strict trad Z2 limits. The increased upper range means the Cotswolds hills can be ridden fairly normally, if slow + steady. And along the flat it’s a decent enough pace.
Does feel like the talk test is sound guide. In the past I’d go over trad Z2 upper limit on a climb but not feel like I was putting in more effort. At the point where my breathing is getting a bit quicker I’m 15-20bpm over the trad Z2 limit. Can’t say it felt more fatiguing compared to 4hrs of trad Z2 though – 8-10bpm higher av HR but same RPE.
I’d say my long non-HR monitored rides where I’m at what I’d call audax pace (pace suited to 300-400k) are generally at this ISM Z2 level with a few more efforts on the hills here and there.
*OT technically but the ISM Z2 stuff is interesting at the mo, plus no way could I do 4hrs on a trainer.

We went out and beat up on the slower of the two group rides going out today

Was good to see you at the cafe. I saw you go when you got to the A4 after that climb but decided to wait for the others.

I missed a ride this week so I have to do 4hrs this weekend to meet my 6hr/week target. About to start hopefully a 90 min session now.

6hrs a week isn’t really a lot, but I am working in consistency first which I’ve always lacked.

6hrs is better than 5. I’m outdoors tomorrow for hours 9-11.5 First time on Pirelli Velos on G1800s as a winter option.

I really enjoyed it 😀 The tiffin was AMAZING at that cafe too.
I wish I’d been on the Diverge though- it was definitely the right choice for the state of the roads.
We intended to do the fast group but I keep reminding myself it’s only February 🤣

We intended to do the fast group but I keep reminding myself it’s only February

Yeah, I am not doing that till I get back on the road bike!
We you with Bernie when he came past up the hill whilst I was having a piss?
I was so far off the back I have no idea who was on the front, spent the first 30km trying to convince the slower riders not to chase the faster ones as the group was too big.

Not sure- possibly.
I did have the route saved but hadn’t bothered to load it so we all went wrong and ended up going to Lambourne 🤣🤣

Then a passing cyclist told us everyone was up the road once we were back on route so we drilled it and caught up just after White’s Hill.

Oh yeah that was White’s Hill where you were peeing I remember now 🤣

Another good group ride today. Easy to Town and Back and then a 38mile loop at 222w/141bpm/19mph in between. It was more like Z2 Under/Overs rather than perfectly steady but I think that’s a worthwhile compromise for the chance to ride with others and have a chat.
Again, it was nice to compare favourably to the other riders. Just hope I’m not a ‘Xmas Star’ as Friel calls them 🤣

That rounded off a pretty tasty week of 13h15, 10800kj’s and 791 TSS.

Next week is pretty daunting. I want to attempt to move my Tempo progression on to 120min at 270w but I reckon I might need extra recovery from the weekend and so might move it from Tuesday to Wednesday. (It sounds silly but I’m already nervous about how that’s going to feel 70 minutes in 😮‍💨🤣)
Then, I want to finish off the 3 week block with a solo century so will probably do that on Saturday. The goal will be to match my best one from last year (207w/17.8mph). Carrying that fatigue into the Sunday group ride will give me even more benefit as I then roll into a blissful recovery week (as long as I survive it) 😎

I cannot remember what I read here on on the TR forum Crosshair,

you say you didn’t feel the need to retest as the zone for 2 is large so an incremental bump in ftp wouldn’t swing the zone too much, so didn’t bother,

wattage wise, I’m riding about smack in the middle of what my Z2 power is,  if I nudge it towards the top of Z2, my hr will go into hr zone 3, is this a non-issue? and did you vary the watts in zone 2 to achieve different stimulus, or doesn’t it matter?

I’ve kind of given up with FTP, it just no longer seems relevant 🤷🏻‍♂️

Basically, I wrote a Friel type plan starting Boxing Day.
The first three weeks had 2x ISM Z2 sessions where I looked to ride quite high up in Z2 HR as I knew that was about where my talk test was from rides I’d been doing.  Because they were done on ERG, I actually just guessed a wattage that would get me there. Those were literally just 1x120min @235w with a small warm up and cool down. I think I started with 100mins wk1 and then jumped straight to 120.
Then two days a week were ‘old fashioned’ zone 2, where I was probably 30w lower than those ERG sessions and then the fifth day each week was z1 with high cadence drills.

Where I’ve had a 💡 moment is how ISM’s ideas are complimentary to a Friel plan. In Base 2, Friel adds a Tempo session. So what I did was, used that session as a way to progress my ISM work- so I just added a few watts on. That became 1×120@ 250w.
I don’t even really care where the HR/RPE/Lactate are for that session either as it’s supposed to be muscular endurance rather than aerobic endurance but actually, I’m only just tipping into Tempo HR (although I’m probably out of ‘talk test’ by the end).
Then the rest of the week is a similar mix of another stricter ISM z2 ride (lower than the tempo ride), more old fashioned z2 and a recovery spin.

Im going to carry that tempo progression all the way to my “120min @ 300w” target hopefully.

Base 2:

250,260,270, recovery week

Base 3:

260,270,280, recovery week

Build 1:

270,280,290, recovery week

Build 2:

280,290,300 🎉

They are pretty scary mind- I’m already planning a long enough stretch of road locally for tomorrow and fretting over whether I can ride that far and back at 270w 😱 🤣🤣

I’d not sweat the detail too much on HR/Power zone- just make sure you’re pushing that boundary each ISM ride.

One of the reasons I like mentioning my training in a forum is accountability. Even though none of you care- if I’ve said out loud I’m going to do something, it’s slightly harder to bail.

So despite my legs feeling tight and it being chuffing freezing, I set off to at least start my effort and see what happens.

After a few pedal strokes, it seems unlikely you can hold it for ten minutes let alone 120 but one thing the steady progression of Z2 has given me is confidence and sure enough, my body settled into a kind of uneasy steady-state. Nothing like an ftp effort of course but just that nadgery feeling that your kind of trapped into the pedal tension and even a moment easing off will encourage your body to quit

And then stayed there for two hours 🤣

Whats depressing about being 95kg still is how little speed you get solo, so the effort was just 40 miles and change at 20.3mph.
That’s clearly not the point this time of year though and it’s just super exciting to start imaging how good this kind of endurance is going to feel once the chaingangs and hard group rides start up.
I’m really really pleased right now at how all the discipline and structure is translating into tangible results. And what’s even better is that I’m not even wasted afterwards (I did eat a lot in anticipation but only took one 750 bottle).

One or two for fans of intervals.icu please:

Does “free” strava get you enough data ?

Is it easy to work it directly via Garmin ?

I’m still experimenting with this, but directly uploading GPS unit activities to Intervals works great, including power data. My premium Strava expires in a few days and I’ll continue to use the free option for basic info, but besides segments, Intervals is the winner for me.

My premium Strava expires in a few days and I’ll continue to use the free option for basic info, but besides segments, Intervals is the winner for me.

Thats exactly what I did about a year ago.   I would pay anything for Strava TBH, and if I had to, I’d ditch it.

Nice work Crosshair.