Why are you atheists so angry?

And that, mcboo, is why I ‘cherry pick’ which aspects of it work for me – an open forum’s not really the best place to discuss it, but certain elements and events of my life dont really fit in with the vatican’s views. Ah well, you cant always please the bloke with the daft hat, but I think I can live with it. 😉

GrahamS as before, do you think this is ok?
As a soundbite on its own? Perhaps a little dodgy. In the context of the rest of his rant? Yep sorry but I think it is okay.

Why would you listen beyond that?
I did, to see if he in anyway apologise for it, justified it or showed its ironic intent. He didn’t.

How do you think it is justified?

What I don’t see from any of the world’s religions is the same approach to standing up to the nutters that claim to represent them.

And that was what Marcus Brigstocke (+ Cougar and me) was saying.

No, Marcus Brigstocke was saying that because they didn’t stand up to the ‘nutters’, then they were as bad as them. He told Muslims to stop blowing stuff up!

A great thread this and one that has come timely for me. Strangely enough I was wondering, while I sat in church on Sunday morn (rather than being at an XC running race that literally started at the top of my road) when STW might have a religion thread. Low and behold one is delivered to me the very next time I logged on…. It’s as if by divine intervention !!

And that’s what I’m trying to get out of this discussion… because in my first steps into religion I can’t get my head around God and Jesus as actual begins.

It’s as if I am caught somewhere between atheists and theists.

To me, at the moment, God is a state of mind.

When you look out at the top of the mountain, you’ve just ridden up, and you take in the view and everything is good in your world at that precise moment… to me that’s God. When you’re handed your new born child and you are the happiest you can be … to me that’s God.

And these two examples aren’t God to me because God created them (the landscape, your child)…. I don’t think He did…. It’s the state of mind that you are in. God might be the smile wiped all over your faces at the end of a fantastic bit of singletrack.

So starting to go to church has just made me more aware of when I am basically happy and at peace, with lots of love thrown in there. Church, to me, has put another name to those feelings… God. Church is making it possible to know God and therefore to know happiness/peace/love and to seek it out…. At this point I would like to remind you that I’m the very essex boy city trader you all love to hate… not some limp wristed leftie hippy type….

So what’s my point… Atheists… I think you may be missing out on something if you are hung up on God as a begin that’s all powerful… of coarse there’s is no such ACTUAL begin…. But… what about if we all could find happiness/peace/love…. now that would be powerful force.

Theists am I barking up the wrong tree? Are these the ramblings of someone with a very limited knowledge of what’s it all about. Am I basically a city monkey with no real idea?

Sorry if that just bored you all (guess I’m just trying to gather my own feelings on the matter) but thought it might add a different slant on the debate.

It’s not their image! It’s the image other people have of them, because they are culpably ignorant.

This reminds me of the ‘cycle vs car’ argument. Being right does you no good when you’re under someone’s wheels. The image other people have of them is wrong due to ignorance, sure, ok. But why wouldn’t they want to change that?

If they don’t care what the great unwashed think of them then fair enough, but that does then render the whole ‘tarring with the same brush’ argument somewhat moot if they really don’t care either way.

Low and behold one is delivered to me the very next time I logged on…. It’s as if by divine intervention !!

(-:

It’s actually just the law of probability. We have one every couple of weeks.

…But they’re generally more shouty and bad tempered than this 🙂

Atheists… I think you may be missing out on something if you are hung up on God as a begin that’s all powerful

When you look out at the top of the mountain, you’ve just ridden up, and you take in the view and everything is good in your world at that precise moment… to me that’s Nature. When you’re handed your new born child and you are the happiest you can be … to me that’s Nature.

Same things, with word substition 🙂

Nature….created by…..?

You obviously DONT feel that humans needed religion to explain why. therefore I assume you have an alternative viewpoint on the matter?

Ok, gravity works by thousand on invisible strings on springs much like velcro which pulls everything towards each other. Gamma-Ray bursts are caused by leakage from an anti-universe which exists just behind ours

Those are my viewpoints, you don’t agree what’s your alternative

*nods quietly and politely in agreement with Tim’s post*

Nature….created by…..?

Why would you assume that there needs to be a creator?

The image other people have of them is wrong due to ignorance, sure, ok. But why wouldn’t they want to change that?

If they don’t care what the great unwashed think of them then fair enough, but that does then render the whole ‘tarring with the same brush’ argument somewhat moot if they really don’t care either way.

They have tried, but after a while it becomes clear that there are some prejudices which they cannot be understood and addressed. You’re a smart bloke Cougar, yet you seem to hold some of these ‘they are all the same’ type views. What can be done to overcome this?

I think you may be missing out on something if you are hung up on God as a begin that’s all powerful… of coarse there’s is no such ACTUAL begin…

It sounds like you’re a Christian who doesn’t believe in god?! If you cross out “god” in your post and replace with, I don’t know, “contentment” or “happiness” or “fulfilment” or “well-being”, it still scans sensibly, so I don’t really understand where the church comes in.

Eg,

To me, at the moment, God happiness is a state of mind.

When you look out at the top of the mountain, you’ve just ridden up, and you take in the view and everything is good in your world at that precise moment… to me that’s God happiness. When you’re handed your new born child and you are the happiest you can be … to me that’s God happiness.

And these two examples aren’t God happiness to me because God happiness created them (the landscape, your child)…. I don’t think It did…. It’s the state of mind that you are in. God happiness might be the smile wiped all over your faces at the end of a fantastic bit of singletrack.

Without a creator, how does anything exist? I am just interested in who/what may have created Nature?

Nature….created by…..?

God….created by…..?

Without a creator, how does anything exist? I am just interested in who/what may have created Nature?

Without a creator, how does God exist? I am just interested in who/what may have created God?

Cougar – maybe there are synonymous?

Could God be an internal not an external factor (need a better word, but that will do)?

Without a creator, how does God exist? I am just interested in who/what may have created God?

Indeed!!! And those poor 15/16 yrs olds writing essays on the subject. Must ask one of them as they all get A*s these days, so they must have the answers for us old ‘uns!

Anyway, tonight, once the kids are bathed and in bed, I shall be having a cheeky jamesons, watching crappy sci-fi (warehouse 13) and trying to put my hand up the wife’s jumper. Praise god and sonny jesus!

Without a creator, how does anything exist?

Here’s the honest answer, I don’t know. Just because I don’t know isn’t in any way reason to believe that there is some sort of creator. It may make you feel better for a time but that doesn’t make it any more true. In fact inserting “god” into the gaps in our knowledge just creates a god of the gaps (or turtles all the way down to extend what Cougar has said) which is probably the worst thing that you can do as when knowledge fills in those gaps “god” becomes irrelvant.

The extremists do not claim to represent the majority. They know the majority do not support them.

They say that they do what they do “in the name of Islam” and “Muslim brotherhood” and they are very vocal about that.

Like the EDL example, this claim isn’t true, but unlike the EDL example we don’t see the rest of the Muslim community publicly and vocally telling them to do one.

Why would you listen beyond that?

Because I didn’t find it that offensive and I was interested in what he had to say?

Also I’m not in the habit of knee-jerk censorship of views that I don’t 100% agree with. Sometimes it is better to listen.

How do you think it is justified?

He very clearly explained that he does not believe that the majority of Muslims support bombings, or that the majority of Christians support persecution, or that the majority of Jews support the extreme military moves of Israel.

He told Muslims to stop blowing stuff up!

Yes he did. And some Muslims have been blowing stuff up so it seems like a pretty fair request.

Obviously it was hyperbole, for the sake of comedy, grabbing attention and getting his point across. I think he then qualified and explained that point very well.

GF – perhaps neither science/knowledge or theology give us the answer?

Without a creator, how does God exist? I am just interested in who/what may have created God?

In the Christian tradition, God is considered to have existed eternally – “there is not a time when he was not” I think is the way at least one of the early creeds phrases it.

Of course, nowadays that leads to all sorts of debate about time, eternity and causality, which could presumably sustain this discussion for another 16 pages 🙂

I am an agnostic, dyslexic insomniac.

I lie awake at night wondering if there is a dog.

😀 😀

They have tried, but after a while it becomes clear that there are some prejudices which they cannot be understood and addressed. You’re a smart bloke Cougar, yet you seem to hold some of these ‘they are all the same’ type views. What can be done to overcome this?

I’m not really talking about “all.” I’m allergic to rash generalisations, they make me itch.

When the radio (say) needs a comment from a group about a subject, they don’t go round each individual member, they go to an appointed spokesperson who is authorised to speak on their behalf. If that speaker isn’t representative then any misconceptions aren’t the fault of the listener.

I live in an area which has a large Asian community, and most of my neighbours are Asian. I’ve witnessed some horrible racism from both “sides” back in the 80s and 90s, and I’m happy to say that, IME, most of it has been stamped out now. Point is, race relation issues are forefront here, I’m not just speaking from behind my copy of the Daily Mail in Tunbridge Wells.

I’m quite happy to believe that the community is largely misunderstood, I simply think they could do a bit more to improve their image. Maybe they have tried and given up as you suggest; what I’m saying is, if they tried again they might find a different attitude to the one they were met with twenty years ago.

Are we discounting aliens?

GF – perhaps neither science/knowledge or theology give us the answer?

Even if you accept that, it is still no reason to invent “god”. Your arguments are fallacious as they start with the assumption that something must have created everything and use the fact that we exist to illustrate that fact. At no point do you seek to verify your original assumption.

In the Christian tradition, God is considered to have existed eternally

If it’s acceptable that god has existed eternally, why isn’t it equally acceptable that the universe has? If that’s a plausible explanation, why do we need to add a creator?

I have to say, barnsleymitch, that your whiskey and wifes jumper intentions do more to establish you as a good guy than any amount of theology… 🙂

Without a creator, how does anything exist? I am just interested in who/what may have created Nature?

Difficult question. Maybe too difficult to answer, so let’s be lazy and invent some bloke with a beard and call him God.

Oh.. what can we do now. Let’s build up a huge amount of dogma and some crazy rules. Then we can go and kill people that don’t agree with everything we think.

Now we’ve created a religion. Aren’t we enlightened..?

Atheists… I think you may be missing out on something if you are hung up on God as a [being] that’s all powerful… of coarse there’s is no such ACTUAL [being]…. But… what about if we all could find happiness/peace/love…. now that would be powerful force.

Fair enough. I do believe in happiness, peace and love. (I think most atheists do)

But if you don’t mind me saying that seems somewhat watered down. Most religionists seem fairly keen on the idea that there is a real supernatural God, Jesus, prophet, Krishna etc

Tiger6791 – Member

Are we discounting aliens?

Irrelevant, unless you dont believe the universe exists 🙂

theology – pah! Give me the wifes bazoomers and a glass of BOOZE everytime 😀

Are we discounting aliens?

Only if they have a discount card. Otherwise it’s full price. 😀

GF – perhaps neither science/knowledge or theology give us the answer?

Maybe not yet, but only the former has a chance of doing so, if we adopt rationial thought 🙂

WOOOW GF – what exactly are my fallacious arguments? I merely posed a question? I haven’t invented God – indeed I don’t think I have mentioned my belief at all?

To be clear – what are you asking me to verify? Is it, the QUESTION (not assumption) that, “Without a creator, how does anything exist?”?

crikey – Member
I have to say, barnsleymitch, that your whiskey and wifes jumper intentions do more to establish you as a good guy than any amount of theology…

I’m allergic to rash generalisations, they make me itch.

Well, not all of them. 😀

“When you look out at the top of the mountain, you’ve just ridden up, and you take in the view and everything is good in your world at that precise moment… to me that’s God. When you’re handed your new born child and you are the happiest you can be … to me that’s God.”

Tim , others … you are unquestionably right… that is nature.

I went on to say

“And these two examples aren’t God to me because God created them (the landscape, your child)…. I don’t think He did…. It’s the state of mind that you are in. God might be the smile wiped all over your faces at the end of a fantastic bit of singletrack.”

Cougar understood what I was saying…. Cougar says I could replace the word God with happiness, he obsolutely right.

Nature….created by…..?

Without a creator, how does anything exist?

Both these questions carry the very strong implication that you conisder that there is a creator, and if that wasn’t your intention then you really should have worded them better.