Why are you atheists so angry?

Jesus was a black man.
No Jesus was Batman
No, no, no, no, not at all.
That was Bruce Wayne

I think goes to show the confusion that can happen when we talk about religion! 😯

HTH!

I think all the religions are guilty of this Cougar.

They shouldn’t just be distancing themselves from the extremists. They should be standing up with one voice, from the newest initiate to the most senior, and saying “No! That is not OUR faith. You do not represent US. What you do is against our God.” and doing so repeatedly until their voice is louder than the nutters.

Why assume that all people who profess to having faith, etc, live in fear mcboo? Hitchens is, of course, entitled to his opinions, but he doesnt know me, does he? Yes, I believe in God, but much like you, I want to live as fulfilling a life as possible. My religion is only one part of my life, one aspect that makes up ‘me’ if you like. I’m a psychiatric nurse, and have been for twenty odd years now – I feel this is a more important aspect of me as a person than the fact I’m a catholic. I have a beautiful wife and four fantastic kids, and these are what define me more than anything else. I think one of the misconceptions about people who are religious is that their faith is all encompassing, that they’re all out to convert you or ‘ram their faith down your throat’ (always makes me laugh that, and be honest, how often does it happen these days?). Bottom line, for me at least, is to enjoy life and treat people with respect, and I can manage that with or without religion.

Graham > that’s it exactly, yes. Well said.

<mytwocents> I’m am atheist, and I’m not angry. Fairy tales lost their relevance to me many years ago. Forgive me, I don’t spend huge amounts of time thinking about it, but it’s always been my impression that religion’s purpose was to explain the unknown to a worried populous; why the sun comes up, what happens when we die, why do people do bad things, why does a country need to invade and massacre large numbers of people, etc etc. Since we have a better understanding of (most) of these sorts of things now, I struggle to see the relevance of religion in the modern world, and am always a little bemused when otherwise intelligent people cling to the concept for no particularly rational reason. Not angry though, and thoroughly believe in the concept of live and let live (unlike a lot of religious types, it seems…) </mytwocents>

I think one of the misconceptions about people who are religious is that their faith is all-encompassing, that they’re all out to convert you or ‘ram their faith down your throat’ (always makes me laugh that, and be honest, how often does it happen these days?).

3 times in the past 5 days, here. Pushy young men in cheap shiny suits with very polished teeth wanting to “talk to me about God”, who wouldn’t take “I’m not interested, pal” as an answer. I’ll cast no aspersions as to which denomination they might fall under, but it does make me wonder what they think they’ll achieve. I’m a grumpy looking bugger with a large beard and a permanent air of pi$$ed-off-ness, maybe they just fancy a challenge. 🙂

Yep, we’ve got a very persistent Jehovah’s Witness who has been to our door at least a dozen times now.

The missus made the mistake of engaging in conversation with him because (as a Dr) she was interested in the JW’s beliefs about blood transfusion, transplants etc and wanted to understand how to talk to them about it in her clinics.

Now he keeps showing up and alternately giving us books/DVDs and asking if we read/watched them yet. Every time we try to explain that we are not religious and not interested we get another book to explain why we should be 😀

Still. Saves buying firelighters I suppose. 😈

Honestly pyro, never happened to me. Having said that, a few years ago, when working at a secure unit, I escorted one of the punters, who was a jehovas witness, to the local kingdom hall. Interesting evening, and I agree about the suits. They were quite keen to invite me to attend on a more regular basis, but lost all interest when I informed them I was ‘already spoken for’. 😉
(edit) I suppose that kind of weakens my point a bit – arse!

I’m am atheist, and I’m not angry.

You’d do well to watch at least a few minutes of the video in the OP. Whilst you may remain ‘not angry’, it’ll perhaps help you understand why some people are.

Now he keeps showing up and alternately giving us books/DVDs and asking if we read/watched them yet.

The mistake you’re making there is accepting the books etc. Remember the Grange Hill campaign.

You just need to become a Catholic, Graham. Apparently mentioning you’re one of those scares them off. I suppose you might get away with just lying, but given you’ve previously said you’re not religious, you probably need to do the full conversion thing and go to church every week in order to convince them. Have fun.

Saying you’re not religious just marks you down as somebody who hasn’t yet seen the light.

GrahamS as before, do you think this is ok?

“Muslims, listen up my bearded and veily friends, calm down, stop blowing things up” – big round of applause.
Etc.

Cougar

Have they? All the soundbites I’ve heard from spokespeople from the Muslim community have pretty much said exactly what you said in your earlier post, distancing themselves from the actions of extremists rather than condemning them. Maybe I’ve just not heard the right media output. (EDIT – this maybe sounds inflammatory, but I meant it sincerely. Maybe I have simply not heard the same things you have.)

They do not seek to distance themselves from it, that implies that they are in some way associated with it. They state that they are nothing to do with it. They condemn the violence in they same way they would condemn any other act of violence you would ask about. They should not be required to speak out against it any more than the should be required to speak out against the EDL or the actions of the Christian right in America.

I understand that being beardy with a rucksack and a tan doesn’t make you a terrorist of course; but in a climate where people are twitchy, I think perhaps the Muslim community could make more of an effort to be seen to be doing something to root out these criminals and prevent terrorist activities.

Why because they are the same colour? Or they pray to the same God? This is exactly the generalisation which I think is wrong. Folks seem to fail to understand that the Militant Islamists / Muslims have as little to do with the majority of Muslims as they have to do with any other section of society you wish to identify.

I think perhaps other people would be less quick to judge and generalise if they did.

and if black people kept their heads down and kept to themselves they would get less abuse? That other people judge and generalise is the fault of the other people. It is not for the majority of Muslims to act to pacify them

Graham in my experience only rudeness works with these people..open door holding bombers scream obscenities, chase them down the street [ clothes are optional]
HTH

When I moved ito my house they knocked on my door as my “neighbours” so i invited them in for a friendly chat not knowing who they were. When they finally confessed. i told them to F off and never come back to my house or next time i would be rude and angry
Its a win win they never came back and I reinforced their faith buy persecuting them

I think perhaps the Muslim community could make more of an effort to be seen to be doing something to root out these criminals and prevent terrorist activities.

They do this in th mosques and the islamic schools rather than throught the media…it is hardly surprsing that we dont knwo what they do as we dont go to mosques.

Interestingly a mate of mine had problems in his mosque with extremists about 10 years ago and the police were not interested saying it was an internal matter and not criminal…these days they come and have chats on a regular basis and share concerns. it does happen but it is not often reported

but it’s always been my impression that religion’s purpose was to explain the unknown to a worried populous; why the sun comes up, what happens when we die, why do people do bad things, why does a country need to invade and massacre large numbers of people, etc etc.

In that case I’m not surprised religion has lost its relevance to you.

I’ve always seen mobile phones as a means of waking me up, since i bought an alarm clock the phone is pointless

I’ve always seen mobile phones as a means of waking me up, since i bought an alarm clock the phone is pointless

Humanity needed religion to explain why.

now we have developed science to the point where it is getting closer and closer to honestly answering as many of our questions as possible, religion is pointless 🙂

Humanity needed religion to explain why.

nope

What is the purpose of religion?

No, wrong way round. You made the statement, you need to support it. If I say it is to preserve butterflies and you show that it is not, it does not make your statement right.

Tim – religion may be pointless to you, but to some people it’s a great comfort. The point I’m trying to make, I suppose, is that people should be entitled to their own views, and none of us have the right, regardless of our own belief systems, to criticise or belittle them for it.

Junkyard – Member. Thich Naht Han writes in an amazingly peaceful style.

+1 Finally we agree on something

Some (might) say that God moves in mysterious ways JY!! 😉

…people should be entitled to their own views, and none of us have the right, regardless of our own belief systems, to criticise or belittle them for it…

i have the right to criticise and belittle anyone i want.

i like watching babylon5 – i expect to be mocked, mercilessly, for admitting this, but i don’t mind – it goes with the territory.

Humanity needed religion to explain why.

Nope
Yep.

(obviously I don’t need to qualify my reply, either.)

No, wrong way round. You made the statement, you need to support it. If I say it is to preserve butterflies and you show that it is not, it does not make your statement right.

Ok in that case, I dont need to explain my statement then.

I dont know the purpose of religion, I never have. Just seems to be a human construct.

Therefore I assume that humanity developed religion and the concept of deities it as a fallback to explain things that we werent sufficienct developed enough to understand, but had intense curiosity about.

You obviously DONT feel that humans needed religion to explain why. therefore I assume you have an alternative viewpoint on the matter?

and belittle anyone i want.

Wow, that’s quite a high set of personal standards you set yourself ahwiles?!?

If that is what makes you happy…..

Mitch – The very basis, that absolute foundation of Abrahamic religion is that man must fear god. You may not live in fear but that isnt really the point.

Edit

and none of us have the right, regardless of our own belief systems, to criticise or belittle them for it.

I’m not going to go out of my way to criticise you but no, sorry if I do I have every right to do so and any offence caused is I am afraid irrelivent, completely so. That is the most important idea to come out of the Enlightenment.

teamhurtmore – Member
Wow, that’s quite a high set of personal standards you set yourself ahwiles?!?

they’re not my standards, they’re everyone’s.

Tim – religion may be pointless to you, but to some people it’s a great comfort. The point I’m trying to make, I suppose, is that people should be entitled to their own views, and none of us have the right, regardless of our own belief systems, to criticise or belittle them for it.

I agree. Its why I dont feel organised religion is in any way moral – stem cell testing is a good example of imposing a ‘belief’ (something intangible) on other peoples lifes.

I dont understand irrationality, basically. We are all irrational at certain times, but organised and enforced irrationality, to use perhaps an appropriate term, ‘beggars belief’.

Furthermore, something in your quote is interesting – “people should be entitled to their own views”. Does this not mean that children should NOT be taken to church before they are old enough to make their own mind up. Say at the age of 16? How many people have a belief in god because thats all they have even been told- not by any personal decision.

I suppose, is that people should be entitled to their own views, and none of us have the right, regardless of our own belief systems, to criticise or belittle them for it.

Well if only religion could actually stick to that statement. It seems that a large portion of religion is about labelling non believers as unholy sinners, it largely excludes homosexuals and prevents women from becoming leaders, one thing it certainly is not, is all encompassing in welcoming one and all equally under the eyes of god.

You just need to become a Catholic, Graham.

There’s a Catholic church across the road from me. You’d think they’d have some kind of rule about poaching from territorial waters.

GrahamS as before, do you think this is ok?

As a soundbite on its own? Perhaps a little dodgy. In the context of the rest of his rant? Yep sorry but I think it is okay.

They state that they are nothing to do with it… any more than the should be required to speak out against the EDL

You brought up the EDL so let’s take that as an example: The EDL tries to claim that its racist bollocks represents the views of “White England” (whatever that is).

This nonsense is best fought by people from “White England” very vocally saying “You don’t represent me”, openly demonstrating against the EDL, roundly condemning them publicly in the press and privately among friends.

And this is generally what happens (see the recent “racist on a tram” video discussed here and on the news, or the various anti-racist stuff in football). As a result the EDL have far less power than they might and are exposed as the extremist nutters they are.

What I don’t see from any of the world’s religions is the same approach to standing up to the nutters that claim to represent them.

And that was what Marcus Brigstocke (+ Cougar and me) was saying.

What I don’t see from any of the world’s religions is the same approach to standing up to the nutters that claim to represent them.

To be fair, we have a very westernised view of the world – Anti EDL riots arent exactly front page news in the UK, so why would we neccessarily hear about a any anti Al-Queda protest in Pakistan (for example)?

Tim: agreed, and that goes to Junkyard’s point that it may be these things are happening and we just don’t hear about them because we don’t move in the right circles or read the right news.

But it is the point mcboo, surely? I feel I have a choice in the way I live my life. I was brought up as a catholic by fairly traditional Irish parents, and as a child, never really questioned my religion. As I grew older, I was able to see that not all aspects of catholicism ‘fitted in’ with the way I wanted to live my life, and that certain aspects of it were totally alien to me. I realise that my continuing belief in God, whilst disregarding some aspects of the catholic faith, may be seen as ‘cherry picking’, but I’m a complicated person at the best of times, and as I’ve already tried saying, my religion is only one aspect of my life.

They state that they are nothing to do with it.

Terrorists are blowing people up in the name of Islam. The ‘mainstream’ Muslim community might very well be nothing to do with them, but given that these extremists rightly or wrongly claim to represent the mainstream you’d think that the mainstream might have something more to say about it? Even a bit of positive PR reinforcing the distinction would help, otherwise it just gives the likes of the EDL more ammunition.

They should not be required to speak out against it any more than the should be required to speak out against the EDL or the actions of the Christian right in America.

“Required,” maybe not. Does that mean it’s a bad idea? Should we all just ignore world atrocities unless they’re our fault?

Why because they are the same colour?

Yes, of course, that’s exactly what I was getting at. 🙄

Folks seem to fail to understand that the Militant Islamists / Muslims have as little to do with the majority of Muslims as they have to do with any other section of society you wish to identify.

And assuming that to be true, what are this silent majority doing to improve their image?

and if black people kept their heads down and kept to themselves they would get less abuse?

I’m not sure where that’s come from, given that I was saying pretty much exactly the opposite. Is this just a cheap trolling attempt?

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They do this in th mosques and the islamic schools rather than throught the media…it is hardly surprsing that we dont knwo what they do as we dont go to mosques.

Which is great. And if that sort of work was publicised more, perhaps there’d be a more harmonious relationship between the different demographics.

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I dont know the purpose of religion, I never have. Just seems to be a human construct.

Personal religion is an attempt to explain the unexplained. Organised religion is (generally) an effective means of controlling the masses. IMHO, etc.

Anyway…to get back to the original question…

If someone is an atheist, they are generally going to be a rationalist. It might not cause anger, but its incredibly frustrating to see an evidence based decision ignored in favour of something else because of a belief. And doubly so when its a decision that can affect other people, not just the decision maker.

Be that because of religion, alternative medicine (homeopathy especially!), ghosts, feng shui…whatever really

The point I’m trying to make, I suppose, is that people should be entitled to their own views, and none of us have the right, regardless of our own belief systems, to criticise or belittle them for it.

So I’m not allowed to criticise people for having homophobic, racist, sexist or even liking Babylon 5 (pervert)? Sorry, no but I absolutely do have that right and religious views are not a sacred cow that is beyond criticism or ridicule esepcially where they driectly impact me. Equally you have the right to mock/criticise/belittle my beliefs.

In the UK as in many, many countries, no one has the right to not be offended.

Even a bit of positive PR reinforcing the distinction would help, otherwise it just gives the likes of the EDL more ammunition.

Yes I can just see the Daily Mail headlines now when Imams want to go to every school in the country to explain Islam to children and why its really rather nice.
Here is our pamphlet.
Muslims : why we are not all Bombers a message of hope
I suspect the EDL and others would just call it another example of Islamification.
They cannot really win IMHO
Do you really think the press would fairly represent this or just tell us ehnw a nutter with 30 followers does something nuttty?

Fair enough, I suppose I’m ‘cherry picking’ again. I’m generally one of the first people on here to pull people up about racism or homophobia, so perhaps my assertion that people dont have the right to criticise or belittle other peoples belief systems may be skewed. I dont see religion as a sacred cow, and the comment I was responding to was ‘religion is pointless’.

But it is the point mcboo, surely? I feel I have a choice in the way I live my life

Well I think you do. Unfortunatly the Vatican most certainly does not think you have a choice, none.

I’m not in the bath today, I’m having a quick pint at the Christmas markets in that Manchester, keep up the good work chaps…

but given that these extremists rightly or wrongly claim to represent the mainstream you’d think that the mainstream might have something more to say about it?

The extremists do not claim to represent the majority. They know the majority do not support them. So, they do not claim to represent you either, why do you have different expectations of Muslims than you do of Christians or atheists?

“Required,” maybe not. Does that mean it’s a bad idea? Should we all just ignore world atrocities unless they’re our fault

No, but we shouldn’t expect certain groups to do more than others

And assuming that to be true, what are this silent majority doing to improve their image?

It’s not their image! It’s the image other people have of them, because they are culpably ignorant.

and if black people kept their heads down and kept to themselves they would get less abuse?
I’m not sure where that’s come from, given that I was saying pretty much exactly the opposite. Is this just a cheap trolling attempt?

This come from you expecting people to behave in a way which fits with your (or the general public’s) perception of them if they want to avoid criticism. See below.

I think perhaps the Muslim community could make more of an effort to be seen to be doing something to root out these criminals and prevent terrorist activities. I think perhaps other people would be less quick to judge and generalise if they did.

There is a difference between debating and criticising and belittling others. I think we should respect that difference.

JY – perhaps the PR offensive is for the older generation. In my youth, RE O Level (!!) was essentially a study of the Synoptic Gospels. Today the GCSE is an exercise (1) in comparative religion and (2) taking any of the major religions and addressing the key questions of life etc, form that chosen perspective.

Hopefully that provides people with knowledge and tolerance.