Why are you atheists so angry?

religion only works until commerce takes over…

Based on recent events, I think I might hang onto my religious beliefs for a wee bit longer – might come in handy if we need a cover for the financial apocalypse.

Crikey – isn’t history essentially a story between the battle between man’s duty to god and his duty to the state? I don’t think this is new as it is a feature of ancient, medieval and modern history.

On that basis, given that all successful societies have had a religion, it looks as if we’d have had to invent God anyway if he didn’t exist, so what’s the worry?

I suspect the reason for successful societies having a religion is something to do with having non fiscal or political control over the people. I.E. we can make them do things by making them feel guilty that they won’t go to heaven.

This is going to sound really arrogant, but there is recent research to suggest that the more intelligent in modern society are either atheist or agnostic.

ditch_jockey – Member

“its very hard for people to accept that things “just are” -we always want a reason”

bloody annoying isn’t it – you’d almost think we were created that way!

superb!

This has been fun, and stimulating, but I need to go and do some prep for a DofE session!

I leave you with one of my favourite bits of philosophy…

I think history is better characterised as the battle between man and other men, and a lot of those other men came from different ‘tribes’ than our own.

A the Nation State has developed, far fewer wars have been fought along religious lines.

I think the development of religion is intricately linked with the development of society as a whole, but the Abrahamic religions missed a trick by allowing themselves to be limited by the use of one sacred text; society is outgrowing religion, for better or worse.

my hypothesis about the existence of the God described in the Bible makes sense of what i see in the world around me, and nurtures the convictions about how I should act in the world.

I don’t think you necessarily need “belief” for that to work though?

One could read books on (non-theist) philosophy, biographies of “good” people or even just good works of fictions that make you think about life, then use those “lessons” to make sense of the world.

Indeed I’m sure you could take the Bible purely as a fictional story and still gain a lot from what it says without believing it to be a literal truth.

You’re right mavisto, it does sound a touch arrogant. Fair enough, I’ve only got a nursing degree and a diploma in CBT, but my wife has an OT degree, PSI degree, Masters in health care management and is currently involved in introducing sensory integration into schools in the area. I’m catholic, she’s a proddy. Thick as shite, the pair of us. 🙄
And with regard to the OP, I’m generally quite furious, so it’s not just the preserve of athiests 😀

My neck feels much better anyway, and wee willie winky has come out far enough for me to have a wee.

Alls well that ends well….

Was there no moral code before the Christian religion?

TJ – coming back to this question, but turning it on its head. So we agree that there was a moral code before Christianity. Indeed, quite easy to link the moral foundations with the Stoics etc. But, a separate question, how do we account for the fact that the idea of man’s duty to god being more important that duty to the state recurs throughout history? This is not an accident of the past 2011 years clearly.

What is the basis of this endurance – reality, ignorance, superstition, fear….?

Barnsleymitch – c’mon then, what’s the answer? You two must have sorted it out…is there an earthly intermediary between the soul and God?

No team hurtmoe – there were morals not a code.

Religion – fear is its main weapon

Oh, I’m far too wooly to give definitive replies teamhurtmore. 😉 Anybody fancy a pint?

Fear and surprise…

idea of man’s duty to god being more important that duty to the state

I suspect the idea has been more pervasive than the reality, and I would hazard a guess that this is related to the majority of early chronicles being associated with religion?

It would tie in with there being a point at which the state becomes more powerful than the religion..

Religion – fear is its main weapon

Odd how the gods that have survived are the ones that promise eternal torture, yet the fun ones like Dionysos have fallen out of favour. I wouldn’t mind a spot of worship when it’s the god of wine.

Religion – fear is its main weapon

Our two weapons are fear and surprise…

barnsleymitch – Member

Don’t shoot the messenger.

I know loads of people with higher degrees who are religeous.

From my own personal experience, I was a christian when I was younger, but after a lot of personal issues, I choose to disregard the existance of any higher power.

Sh1t happens and there is nothing we can do about it. It’s not god or the devil; it’s life (or death as the case may be).

I wasnt shooting the messenger mavisto, simply attempting to point out that statistics are quite often manipulated to suit particular arguments. Personally speaking, I’ve got bigger issues to deal with than arguing the toss about angry people, religious or otherwise. Now, how about that pint?

earthly intermediary between the soul and God?

Otis Redding 😕

Barnsleymitches dog?

However, the whole thing does stand or fall on my conviction about the existence of God, which I can’t prove beyond doubt to either you – or myself for that matter!

I agree and this position answers the earlier query about a belief in Jesus as the basis for a belief in God. CS Lewis made the same point essentially which was that Jesus was either the Son of God, deluded or something worse. He couldn’t have been ‘just a good bloke’. It is through my exploration of Jesus, his teachings, the social context of his teachings and through me living out the Christian faith that has led me to an evidence-based belief in a creator God – I certainly don’t believe because I was told to, I have questioned myself and my position and do welcome discussion and debate.

On the point about rejecting all other gods – Christianity and the God Jesus talks about is the only God that offers relationship that is not based on our ‘works or efforts’. So this notion about being ‘good’ or leading ‘good’ lives is a non-starter. How do you define a ‘good’ life? Who is the judge?

barnsleymitch – Member

I nearly didn’t post my messages because you are never going to change peoples minds who don’t want them to be changed. I have however, been at both ends of the spectrum of belief and read enough of the bible to make an informed view.

I have very personal reasons that I’m not prepared to go into on an open forum, for being an atheist.

I’ll have a Pendle Witch please.

No crikey, mine’s brown. I would however, encourage him to do that, purely because of Mr Claptons, erm, right wing tendencies. 😉

led me to an evidence-based belief in a creator God

Can you share that evidence?

Christianity and the God Jesus talks about is the only God that offers relationship that is not based on our ‘works or efforts’

So where is the motivation to behave in a moral fashion?

It is through my exploration of Jesus, his teachings, the social context of his teachings and through me living out the Christian faith that has led me to an evidence-based belief in a creator God – I certainly don’t believe because I was told to, I have questioned myself and my position and do welcome discussion and debate.

Evidence based – riiiiight

What evidence please

you have already claimed to be a scientist so lets see some rigour here.

Evidence based – riiiiight

Steady chaps, it’s better to ask and then debate, we seem to be doing well in terms of not being unpleasant so far.

I agree and this position answers the earlier query about a belief in Jesus as the basis for a belief in God. CS Lewis made the same point essentially which was that Jesus was either the Son of God, deluded or something worse. He couldn’t have been ‘just a good bloke’. It is through my exploration of Jesus, his teachings, the social context of his teachings and through me living out the Christian faith that has led me to an evidence-based belief in a creator God – I certainly don’t believe because I was told to, I have questioned myself and my position and do welcome discussion and debate.

This is known as the lord/liar/lunatic straw man argument. There are lots of links on the interweb about it.

Pork scratching?

Evidence based – riiiiight

I can see this thread going downhill from here. Which is a shame as we’ve managed a very entertaining, interesting and reasoned discussion on both sides for 10 pages so far.

Please don’t let it slide into petty point scoring.

Steady chaps, it’s better to ask and then debate, we seem to be doing well in terms of not being unpleasant so far.

You were comparing posters on here to your shrunken willy earlier, Mr. Pleasant!

Sorry chaps 😳

CS Lewis made the same point essentially which was that Jesus was either the Son of God, deluded or something worse.

Our RE Teacher at school made a similar comment. The flaw here is that it assumes accuracy of reporting. It’s possible, likely even, that the man we know as ‘Jesus’ is based on many men, and subject to exaggeration, embelishment and chinese whispers as stories are passed between people and generations before it was ever written down.

an evidence-based belief in a creator God

I’d love to hear some of your evidence-based findings that have brought you to that conclusion.

Sorry chaps 😳

It was a fair question TJ, but we’re trying to keep the tone civil and mutually respectful.

living out the Christian faith that has led me to an evidence-based belief in a creator God

Can I jump in here and suggest that theboycopeland maybe isn’t using the term “evidence-based” in the way that it would be used in the scientific disciplines – he started off agreeing with a comment I’d made about the ‘experience based’ element to my own convictions, in which I’d acknowledged that I couldn’t provide any definitive evidence for the existence, or otherwise, of God. He’s obviously at liberty to contradict my interpretation, but I think he was simply suggesting that some of his life experiences affirmed his conviction that God exists.

I think if someone could scientifically prove the existence of God, we might not be hearing it first on STW!

he was simply suggesting that some of his life experiences affirmed his conviction that God exists

Alas, that’s a very human failing. Well researched and proven. Look up “confirmation bias”. Unfortunately, it’s meaningless.

I put a cardboard box on my head yesterday, to keep the elephants and tigers away. I wasn’t sure if it would work, so I checked. I didn’t get attacked by either beast, so it must have worked.

Unfortunately, it’s meaningless.

as is human existence in general – you and the writer of Ecclesiastes would get on pretty well.

I’m familiar with the idea of ‘confirmation bias’ – I’ve even seen examples of it in the way Christians explain some of the circumstances of their lives. Then again, I’ve noticed it works for atheists as well 🙂

I compared my willy to Elfin, which is possibly a compliment, although I’m not sure who for…

I would be interested to hear people who are religious discuss if and how they deal with any contradictions they encounter between their belief and other stuff in their lives, does one trump the other, is there a point at which religion takes precedence, or does religion act as a default.
Dunno what I’m asking really, how does it work in practice?

is there a point at which religion takes precedence

sometimes “yes”, sometimes “no”, 🙂

I think to some extent it depends on the type of person you are. I tend to be quite reflective and introspective, so I have a hard time living with unresolved tensions between theology and practice – to the extent that it’s had me nudged out of 2 different churches by the leadership who got tired of me pushing issues they didn’t want pushed.

If we’re talking about intellectual tensions – say between notions of God as Creator and scientific knowledge, nowadays I feel far less urgency about finding quick/easy answers. I used to feel I needed an answer for everything, whereas nowadays I’m happy to live with the notion that I will die with unanswered questions (hopefully a long time from now, understanding far more than I do now)…

The hardest issues are the ones that generate tensions between my conviction about God being loving and human suffering – being with my dad as he died of cancer was not/still isn’t easy.

Don’t know if that answers your question in any way?

Can I jump in here and suggest that theboycopeland maybe isn’t using the term “evidence-based” in the way that it would be used in the scientific disciplines…..but I think he was simply suggesting that some of his life experiences affirmed his conviction that God exists

This is partly true. However, I think ‘evidence’ is also misused/misunderstood as I alluded to earlier i.e. Is an eye witness account of a crime any less evidence than DNA found at the crime scene? The DI would take al aspects into account. I also think that purely adopting a positivist view of evidence in this regard is inappropriate.

With this in mind, some of my evidence is experience-based as suggested, but it is also informed and influenced by historical accounts and the experiences of others. I don’t have DNA evidence but then neither do atheists and it could therefore be argued that atheism is as much of a matter of faith a theism. To my knowledge, the only discipline in ‘science’ in which ‘evidence as proof’ occurs is mathematics. Everything else is a matter of probablitlity. Therefore, it’s a case of building up the ‘evidence’ to form a world-view.

see here for the ‘clever-blokes’ version of STW does the God delusion

http://www.fixed-point.org/index.php/video/35-full-length/164-the-dawkins-lennox-debate

TJ – for what it’s worth mate – I had no issue with your question or the tone.

Good debate this.