Well scotland didnt get independance, thread

Scotroutes, do you have a mirror in your house?

😀 Typical yS behaviour and quite amusing really. 😀

Avoids answering question though but helps those of south of the border to understand what life north of the border has been like. For that, we thank you Scotroutes.

So how many lies have been identified so far? Simple question.

Who else could have done it but westminster? I am not sure what the point is there ernie tbh

Really ? You can’t figure out that my point was that Westminster has a proven track record of devolving power to the Scottish people ? How astonishing.

Yes but Ernie, that is really very inconvenient. As we have seen throughout, the truth is difficult to swallow for some.

I did genuinely miss that as your point.
Apologies.

I dont think one devolution in the entire union is a great record tbh but it is better than the one in Ireland.
I assume, given the new statement, they will deliver.

I dont think one devolution in the entire union is a great record tbh

Don’t you ? I think it’s not too bad. 300 years ago the Scottish Parliament didn’t even bother asking the Scottish people how they felt when they decided to ratify the Act of Union. During most of the time since then there has been little evidence that the majority of Scots have wanted independence or devolution.

Things have changed in recent decades and Westminster has responded. In 1979 a Labour government asked the Scottish people if they wished to have devolution, unfortunately only 30 odd percent of the registered electorate answered yes.

20 years later a New Labour government asked the same question again but this time lowered the bar and it was a huge Yes vote.

17 years after that a Tory government allowed Scots to decide whether they wanted to separate from the rest of the UK and they said no by a clear margin.

Both main political parties have shown a commitment to listening to the wishes of the Scottish people, I’m not sure why you expect more than that.

Thm both Cmd and Ed (don’t Call Me Dave) seem to have withheld significant pieces of information from the public.
I am in favour of an English parliament and devolution to the regions. For Scotland I would rather have independence but for the moment that ship has sailed.
Ernie there is a long history of support for Scottish independence going back to about the middle of the 19th century.

Of course there’s a long history of support for Scottish independence, in fact going back to the Act of Union – wasn’t the vote in the Scottish Parliament simular to 55/45 in favour ? I said : During most of the time since then there has been little evidence that the majority of Scots have wanted independence or devolution.

BTW fwiw I don’t really think you can question Westminster’s commitment to democracy. I actually agree with ernie. And I’ve often had discussions with friends from the O6 telling them that the GFA is the way forward(I’ve actually used the Scottish referendum as proof), as Westminster’s greatest weakness, from a republican point of view, is a belief in law and democracy(on what is classed as home shores at least)

Problem with the pledge is that it isn’t a complete pledge, all it does is take it up to a 2nd reading and then leaves it entirely up to the next parliament to ratify if they choose.

So its not particularly a cast iron guarantee of powers. (Which it was made out to be). And that’s before you take into the account that there was nothing really specified, so it can be a token gesture and that’s the pledge fulfilled, which will solve nothing.

Basically I can get brought up periodically over the next few months as each deadlines passes. But the deadlines aren’t really the problem, its content and an incomplete timetable.

So its not particularly a cast iron guarantee of powers. (Which it was made out to be). And that’s before you take into the account that there was nothing really specified, so it can be a token gesture and that’s the pledge fulfilled, which will solve nothing.

It’s a cast iron guarantee of extra devolved powers, but no, there’s no specifics, just like there were no specifics about what would have happened in post-referendum Scotland had it been a Yes vote. But everyone knew that on Thursday when they went to the polling stations so no one was hoodwinked.

I agree that ratification after the next general election would appear pose a problem for the doubters, but you can’t simply cancel the next general election which is less than 12 months away, and you can’t rush things through in just a few weeks – things are being rushed as it is.

None of this suggests a lack of honesty on the part of the 3 main parties just a reality of the limitations of a tight timetable. And there is no doubt at all that after the next general election the 3 main parties will have a majority in the Commons, so it will be ratified.

If any further powers were granted to Scotland without proper consultation and agreement of the parliament of the UK then it would be undemocratic and not acceptible. The challenge is to come to the table and work out a better future for the UK together as that is the way the vote went,

Tbh its a wait and see situation. It’ll not be solved till after the GE. Nationalists will obviously use that time to gain political capital.

My questions:
1)Who gets to decide what’s just English? Would this mean purely reserved matters?

this whole question is not a tricky one. The legislation that MPs vote on specifies clearly where it would have effect. the powers that have been devolved to the Scottish parliament are clearly articulated. whether it’s a good idea or not is a political question, but as a technical question it’s no big deal to separate out the legislation.

If any further powers were granted to Scotland without proper consultation and agreement of the parliament of the UK then it would be undemocratic and not acceptible.

it would have to be by an act of parliament whatever happens. ps we would get to see the House of Lords in action as the wise, considered upper house that won’t rush to judgment or be politicized cough cough cough

To my fellow scottish yes voters.

You are on the wrong forum here. You need to focus your energy on the fight ahead e.g join a party who’s policies are more socially fair for all.
You are banging yer heid against a brick wall here.
This forum is made up of mainly middle class people who vote conservative.
They are good people ‘who’ like us, enjoy riding their bikes.

But because they are conservative, they enjoy having their lot and keeping it.
That in itself does not make them bad people

It’s one other factor why so many voted no(95-percent of tories in Scotland voted no).
Too many people out there, happy with their lot, and unwilling to share, for a more socially fair society.
The dream was almost a reality, but the fight goes on.

gordimhor – Member
Thm both Cmd and Ed (don’t Call Me Dave) seem to have withheld significant pieces of information from the public.

No. They may have panicked about a rogue poll and got ahead of themselves for sure, but they are essentially facing the realities of details, details….

Staffy,, that is some imagination you have there. Is running away (wrong forum) really the answer. How about facing up to simple questions and giving simple answers. The Tories!?!? Don’t forget how SNP voters behaved. If you can’t carry your own party, it’s a bit rich to blame another one. So Ernie are you a Tory now? Don’t worry that doesn’t make you a bad person apparently!!!

The dream was exposed as a poorly prepared pipe dream without foundation and the majority rejected it (remember). apart form one rogue poll, the voting/poll patterns were pretty consistent. Accept that and move on. No need for yS to keep lying and manipulating the truth, AS did enough of that for all of you all put together. If you want to blame anyone, blame him for failing to prepare properly, and for missing the biggest open goal in his political history (ok, second to Kinnoch). No wonder you are all so bitter. He screwed it up by choosing initiation, bullying and deceit as the principle tactic and wondering why so many saw through it. Once the misplaced hero worship dies down, that simple reality will sink in and your anger can be directed towards the correct target.

They may have panicked about a rogue poll ……

To be fair it caused panic across Scotland. With every single opinion poll out of a staggering multitude of different ones showing winning support for the No camp, the rogue poll a few days before polling was the best thing that happened for the No camp in the whole campaign – it shook the complacency out of Scots and guaranteed that they rejected separation by a clear margin.

I remember as the fallout of the rogue poll from the business and financial sector in Scotland was being reported thinking whether the poll could have been the result of shenanigans from the No camp, it really was a gift to them. It just seemed too good to be true

You are banging yer heid against a brick wall here.
This forum is made up of mainly middle class people who vote conservative.

You don’t have to be a Tory to reject separation. Most Scots aren’t Tories most Scots rejected separation.

You don’t have to be a Tory to reject separation. Most Scots aren’t Tories most Scots rejected separation.

Don’t spoil their ideas Ernie, most seem to be looking for any reason why it’s not the fact that most Scots rejected the prospect of independence. It’s clearly got nothing to do with not being on board with the SNP ideas, not trusting them to sort out the required important issues properly or the fact that an independent Scotland could be better than the current one. I’m not sure if there was a clause but I hope the next go is many years off.

In 1979 a Labour government asked the Scottish people if they wished to have devolution, unfortunately only 30 odd percent of the registered electorate answered yes.

Why would you write it like that seeing as there was a vote in favour of independence that was not respected due to it not reaching a threshold?
I may as well say that in the last vote less than 50% of the population voted to stay in the union – also true but spun somewhat 😕
I also think it is somewhat difficult to cite an example of them ignoring the will of the people in a yes vote for devolution as an example of their fine tradition in respecting devolution.

most seem to be looking for any reason why it’s not the fact that most Scots rejected the prospect of independence

Point of order please we need to say those resident in scotland and eligible to vote in the referendum – it was not a vote of the Scottish people/Scots – to be clear i am not making the claim that non scots swayed the election. I have seen no stats either way on this point and have no view.

the rogue poll a few days before polling was the best thing that happened for the No camp in the whole campaign – it shook the complacency out of Scots and guaranteed that they rejected separation by a clear margin.

If a yes voter said that they would be considered to be a conspiracist loon who was clutching at straws by some on here and blaming others for the no vote etc.

FWIW I dont disagree with you so we could ask who was best served by this rogue pol – unionists or nationalists whilst wishing to decide who “sanctioned” its release.

FWIW i have no idea if it was an honest mistake or not.

This forum is made up of mainly middle class people who vote conservative.

I strongly doubt that. Middle class may be the (slim) majority but I doubt that Tories are.

In fairness mol, we are absolutely classing labour supporters as Tories these days! 😆 I wouldn’t say they are finished in Scotland far from it, but the have done them selves damage. The feeling at the moment is to do further damage.

To be fair it caused panic across Scotland. With every single opinion poll out of a staggering multitude of different ones showing winning support for the No camp, the rogue poll a few days before polling was the best thing that happened for the No camp in the whole campaign – it shook the complacency out of Scots and guaranteed that they rejected separation by a clear margin.

Good point Ernie. It certainly did that.

The yS still have to accept that more of their supporters (?) voted No than for the SNP. If SNP voters are able to see through the BS, no need to blame anyone else. Pinning this on the Tories is pretty poor. Put the results map in a general election context and what do you have?

Still, two days until Wednesday and STFU day.

Steffbhoy, I understand where you are coming from, does no harm to understand different opinions. I do get frustrated as hell as times mind you, hence my various statements about giving up arguing! 😆

BTW regarding the point only 45 accepted it. There’s a difference in how that is being perceived north and south of the border. South that it was a resolute beating. North that to go from 25% to 45% in 2 years is a great achievement and absolutely a great base to build from.

Point of order please we need to say those resident in scotland and eligible to vote in the referendum – it was not a vote of the Scottish people/Scots – to be clear i am not making the claim that non scots swayed the election. I have seen no stats either way on this point and have no view.

I’m probably in trouble now for referring to the inhabitants of Scotland as Scotts. I shall from now on refer to them as the population of the Scotland.

I always thought a narrow no would be the best outcome. However I’m not ready to dismiss Westminster because they’ve suddenly realised it’s more complicated than they thought. Give them time.

In fairness mol, we are absolutely classing labour supporters as Tories these days!

And Labour’s comeback policy announcement this morning either proves it, or is the most inept policy launch since ending free school milk!

What was that ninfan? I had a laugh at their promise to raise the main wage by 20bloody20 yesterday.

You are on the wrong forum here. You need to focus your energy on the fight ahead e.g join a party who’s policies are more socially fair for all.

it you wanted to make Scotland more socially fair, you’d do something other than chat on a forum. if you wanted to do ANYTHING productive, you’d do something other than chat on a forum.

Seosamh

‘Labour promise child benefit cuts for all’

konabunny – Member
You are on the wrong forum here. You need to focus your energy on the fight ahead e.g join a party who’s policies are more socially fair for all.

it you wanted to make Scotland more socially fair, you’d do something other than chat on a forum. if you wanted to do ANYTHING productive, you’d do something other than chat on a forum.in fairness that is his point. And one a lot of people are doing. Member ship of the SNP, greens and SSP is up by about 12 thousand members since friday. Personally I’m letting things settle for a week or 2 before I decide to join something.

They are correct about a split in Scotland. But not a societal split nor a damaging split as has been spouted.

The silent majority has split. Half aren’t silent no longer. Trick is now to harness and encourage that and not let it pitter out.

I’m developing my thoughts as things go but in the short to medium term I believe we need to focus on reforming holyrood under the powers we have and might get. The constitutional questions can lie dormant for a few years.

ninfan – Member
Seosamh

‘Labour promise child benefit cuts for all’I wonder if they are just giving up on Scotland and planning to take the Tories on in middle England! 😆

in fairness that is his point. And one a lot of people are doing. Member ship of the SNP, greens and SSP is up by about 12 thousand members since friday. Personally I’m letting things settle for a week or 2 before I decide to join something.

I don’t know if joining a political party is any better than blethering on the internet from a usefulness POV but it’s got to be worth a shot

I believe we need to focus on reforming holyrood

Genuine non-loaded question as I am curious and we don’t get to hear about this stuff: What do you consider to be the problems with Holyrood and why would you reform it?

The whole “I am one of the 45” thing really irks me.

2 elections and another referendum to be coming in the not to distant future. So a lot to get involved in. Increasing membership should also influence policy as well IMO. So I don’t think it is futile.

NZCol – Member
The whole “I am one of the 45” thing really irks me.

its a rallying call nothing more. It’ll be gone in a few weeks. People do understand that it is exclusive and not the correct message.

Judging from what I am seeing it is going to take some Yes voters a bit of time to calm down after all the excitement. I am probably pessimistic realistic in my outlook, but like all these things a bit of enthusiasm is a good thing, but it ain’t gonna last. Remember Occupy, Live Aid? It is admirable that people want to change the world but I can’t see any lasting effect for the majority of the 45.

This forum is made up of mainly middle class people who vote conservative.

That’s about an accurate a statement as….Alex Salmond is an honest and trustworthy man!

Anyway, I’m bored of this now….THAT thread did it for me! I’m leaving.

For me the mass engagement with politics was a major benefit of the referendum campaign.That is irrespective of which side you were on. There is now a need to unite and hold the politicians to account wherever they are.
In my opinion the beauty of the Yes campaign was that it became a “ground up” campaign with hundreds of groups connected by a theme like Women for Independence , and geographical groups like Yes Lochaber. This “ground up” nature is one of the reasons I have not yet joined one of the political parties as I see them as centralised and to a greater or lesser degree top down controlled.

In a UK general election context the signs are worrying for Labour, various sources say 30% -40% voted yes. So there is a need for Labour to regain that support or to get votes from SNP voters who voted no. The problem is that Labours party machinery is wrecked due to neglect. It is vital for Labour to be seen to delivering on the vow and on or very near the timetable.
40% of labour supporters back yes