Visit My Mosque Day, Sunday

From source, always from source.

I suspect that learning Arabic may be a barrier to entry.

(Incidentally, am I right in thinking that the Quran is prohibited from being translated into other languages, or have I made that up at some point?)

Times may have changed but when I was at school I don’t remember any other faiths ever being mentioned even.

Not sure how old you are, but for the same reason our study of history is centered around the UK’s, it is not surprising the same approach was taken to RE and my guess is that the Christian faith was the dominant one in this country when you were at school.

Monologue. FTFY

Good of you and much as i probably did miss-spell (or make it up) it I’m not sure monologue is the word i was looking for, maybe i should have said “delivering monologues”, I may of course be wrong.

You’re quite right, everyone present doesn’t believe in a God or gods, though the assumption that we’re not all here due to some commonality of belief (even if that’s “cycling is fun”), and bound by precepts (thou shalt not evade the swear filter etc.) seems misplaced. A church is just a community formed around a common interest/belief, all be it a long established and quite large one.

[Quote]It’s just a bunch of opinions in a free debate.[/quote] petty sure jhj would disagree…

(Incidentally, am I right in thinking that the Quran is prohibited from being translated into other languages, or have I made that up at some point?)

Regardless of prohibition, English versions are available and only a google search away…

From source, always from source.

There’s plenty of extreme and bizarre stuff in the Bible, especially the Old Testament, but I don’t see a lot of babies being cut in half at the local church bake sales.

…English versions are available…

got one myself…

(it reads like one reeeaaally long cryptic crossword clue, makes the bible seem like easy-reading in comparison)

Not sure how old you are, but for the same reason our study of history is centered around the UK’s, it is not surprising the same approach was taken to RE and my guess is that the Christian faith was the dominant one in this country when you were at school.

I was under the impression that it still was?

I went to school in the 80s. Primary and secondary were both non-faith schools, though I remember hymns and prayers every morning at primary school (not sure if that continued into secondary, if it did it’s fallen out of my head). AFAIK a Christian-leaning RE was on the National Curriculum, though again I may just be misremembering.

I am sorry that the academic discipline of theology has passed you by – after all, it was only one of the principal subjects that our ancient universities were founded to study.

Well, it’s true I don’t have any Theology. But then, I also don’t have any Leprechaunology, Santa Clausology or Fairies-at-the-bottom-of-the-gardenology either.

Ancient or otherwise.

There’s plenty of extreme and bizarre stuff in the Bible, especially the Old Testament, but I don’t see a lot of babies being cut in half at the local church bake sales.

I think that’s part of the issue. You wind up having to pick and choose which bits are True, which are fables and which simply has no place in modern society – and all of those definitions will have changed wildly over time as human knowledge and culture has expanded. And that’s problematic when one is using such a book as a guide to life.

There’s plenty of extreme and bizarre stuff in the Bible, especially the Old Testament, but I don’t see a lot of babies being cut in half at the local church bake sales.

That’s because the religious habit of eventually being dragged along kicking and screaming behind improvements in ethics from secular progress, still holds true.

I don’t believe any of that stuff either. It doesn’t prevent me from having a cuppa and a civilised chat with people who do. Or even from trying to understand some of their beliefs, motivations or philosophy.?

I’ve got no issue in that either, I’ve just got no wish to visit a place of worship. If I’ve got a question about Islam I can look it up or ask one of my many Muslim colleagues.

I am sorry that the academic discipline of theology has passed you by – after all, it was only one of the principal subjects that our ancient universities were founded to study

I’m a scientist, I believe in fact. If there was any factual evidence for anything in the bible, the Koran or the tora I would re-evaluate my position – see that critical thinking thing above – but religious people, in the face of facts generally don’t change their view. Its irrelevant what University’s were founded on, this isn’t the 1400’s, we’ve learned shit since then.

Free debate – where bias, bigotry, ignorance and insults will always be present along with tolerance, indifference, interest and support.
So that makes it representative of the general population.

I do wonder, the way this is (inevitably) heading, whether this splinter discussion should be taken to its own thread.

patriotpro

(Incidentally, am I right in thinking that the Quran is prohibited from being translated into other languages, or have I made that up at some point?)

Regardless of prohibition, English versions are available and only a google search away… [/quote]

The Koran can’t be translated since it’s the literal word of Mohamed as he spoke it. Once translated it’s no longer the Koran. It has been suggested this is one reason why Islam hasn’t gone through a reformative process, the bible by contrast is composed of texts written by human men for the most part, so it’s less blasphemous to interpret them .

So a religion that is getting bad press at the minute is opening its doors to try and build relations.

Then bigoted people on here choose to remain in their bigoted corner because afterall ignorance is bliss.

Then bigoted people on here choose to remain in their bigoted corner because after all ignorance is bliss.

how are people being bigoted just because they don’t want to go to?

The Koran can’t be translated since it’s the literal word of Mohamed as he spoke it. Once translated it’s no longer the Koran.

Aha! Cheers for that.

I do wonder, the way this is (inevitably) heading, whether this splinter discussion should be taken to its own thread.

is heading??

it’s a shame that people can’t rationally debate religion on here without the usual loudmouthed teenage boys braying like Tories at PMQ’s.

I suppose this is what it’s like to be a fancy watch owner/coveter in a watch thread 😆

it’s a shame that people can’t rationally debate religion on here without the usual loudmouthed teenage boys braying like Tories at PMQ’s.

Your image is the result of your own prejudicial overlaying onto sets of typed words, something you’ve seen on TV….

Cougar – a thread which started with the evident intention of sharing a piece of information is now at risk of turning into something else entirely and I can understand you considering hiving it off it elsewhere.
I’m in leeds where there are plenty of mosques but i didn’t know ‘Visit my Mosque’ was on this Sunday until i read the post.
Why can’t people just take it at face value and move on if all they are capable of comprises insults, ignorance and cheap shots.
Can’t avoid thinking that the politics and religious threads provide a clear insight into the ‘real person’.

Coug’s have you checked the current RE syllabus at GSCE and A level?

Both mini THMs studied the subject at both levels and one has chosen to study some modules at Uni (although not majoring in it). I asked him why…because it addresses some of the most important questions that we face in life. Pretty good reason. He goes to listen to extra lectures because one of the profs wrote one of the core academic texts that he was required to study. He finds the lectures very stimulating and acedmaically challenging.

I guess we could take that all away. Perhaps I should feel guilty about allowing him to be exposed to such nonsense and stories of the sky fairy. Tough being a parent isn’t it?

Steady. “Sky fairy” is apparently a “cheap shot”…

my eldest enjoys his RE classes at high school as its one of the few classes the students get to engage in discussions with the teacher rather than just listening. The RE classes discuss different religions not indoctrinate like faith schools do.

The Koran can’t be translated since it’s the literal word of Mohamed as he spoke it. Once translated it’s no longer the Koran.

So that’s why my (fairly old) printed copy I titled “The Meaning of the Illustrious Quran”. Interesting.

Also, I wonder whether there would be any benefit in lumping religion in with philosophy as far as formal education is concerned. Both seek answers to questions that traditionally couldn’t be answered by the more practical sciences/arts.

Cougar – Moderator
I dunno about that, y’know. Religion isn’t a manifest of anything, it’s a man-made construct

Aren’t all man made constructs manifestations of needs or desires?

I reckon I could draw up a framework for a new religion in my lunch hour that had plenty of “be nice to each other” without all that messy raping and killing business.

Couldn’t we all?
Doesn’t mean anyone would follow us.
🙂
People seem to need the killing, smiting and divine retribution bit.

Human nature again.
Any ideology which fails to take it into account is doomed to failure.
Life is complicated and organised religions offer a comfortable social structure and belief system.

The problem in a scientific, rational world occurs when people actually choose to start believing in them.
Once people are willing to ignore their own reality, those who wish to exploit them, can.

All religions go through periods of literalism and enlightenment and are equally vulnerable to exploitation.
Issues arise in a multifaith society when individual religions are at different stages of the process.

I’m a scientist, I believe in fact. If there was any factual evidence for anything in the bible, the Koran or the tora I would re-evaluate my position – see that critical thinking thing above

So does that mean you don’t think people studying many of the humanities are capable of crictical thought? How narrow minded, which is a pretty appalling quality in a scientist. Brian Cox seems to have a much more sensible view

“Philosophers would rightly point out that physicists making bland and sweeping statements is naive. There is naivety in just saying there’s no God; it’s b——s,” he says. “People have thought about this. People like Leibniz and Kant. They’re not idiots. So you’ve got to at least address that.”

Nothing apparently Woppit.

So does that mean you don’t think people studying many of the humanities are capable of crictical thought How narrow minded, which is a pretty appalling quality in a scientist. Brian Cox seems to have a much more sensible view

you can study religion without believing it.

There is no naivety in thinking there is no god, religion is mankind’s first attempt to explain things. However, like a lot of first attempts born in ignorance it is wrong.

I’m not Brian Cox and I stand by my comment that faith means the purposeful suspension of critical thinking.

Nothing apparently Woppit.

Thanks. What?

Nah “Sky fairy” no cheap shot to me.

Just indicates as lack of knowledge were the person who used it, or it’s like, STILL thinks that God is a beardy bloke sitting on a cloud… ?? (THM I presume you don’t. And your use was merely a turn of phase)

As for you Cougar, me old pal 🙂

And that’s problematic when one is using such a book as a guide to life.

You’re a cyclist right?

Does that mean you like to ride a bike on the road? track? bmx? MTB? … Hey maybe you’re a fundamentalist recumbent or unicyclist. You being a cyclist doesn’t limit you to one or all or any number … you pick and choose as you wish.

And back on topic …. going to try and get to my local Mosque and due to take the U6s rugby practise sunday morning…. So thats Body and Soul exercised for sunday, just need to do something for my mind… actually gaining some understanding of a different religion, race and way of thinking about the world takes care of that too, wouldn’t you say?

Peace, out

I stand by my comment that faith means the purposeful suspension of critical thinking.

I’m a scientist too and I disagree. Just because something is intangible doesn’t mean it is not real. To millions, nay billions of people worldwide ‘God’ is real even without the ability to exist in the physical world.

Yes, our understanding has moved on about whether the world was built in 7 days and whether Noah really was a master boat builder but that doesn’t necessarily disprove the existence of a non-physical entity.

Is love real? I’ve never seen it, held it, tasted it in a physical sense – but I’m sure it exists because of the effect it has on people.

And (time travel is allowed here, right – I just can’t think of a better example that everyone can follow) go back 5 years. Is the Higgs Boson real? It provides answers and rationale to a lot of questions and the evidence is there that it should exist but we’ve never actually seen one IRL, because our tools and equipment are not sufficiently advanced to see it.

That’s kind of how i view religion, and God, as a mix of those things. To a lot of people it makes perfect sense and provide validation and answers to many of their questions, and just because I don’t ‘understand’ it in the same way as them it doesn’t mean I’m right and they’re not. Maybe i just lack the equipment to understand it. Maybe one day i will have that ability just as billions of others already seem to, and as we as scientists now do with the Higgs boson now our powerful microscope is working.

I used to be a militant atheist, but as i’ve got older and wiser I’m now genuinely don’t know. Sure, a lot of bad things are done in the name of religion, but also a lot of good things, and it’s not religion per se that is to blame, it’s people. As i said before, sometimes I wish i did have a faith because being a depressive in a life with NO meaning is a nasty place to be.

As for you Cougar, me old pal

‘And that’s problematic when one is using such a book as a guide to life.‘
You’re a cyclist right?

Does that mean you like to ride a bike on the road? track? bmx? MTB? … Hey maybe you’re a fundamentalist recumbent or unicyclist. You being a cyclist doesn’t limit you to one or all or any number … you pick and choose as you wish.

Anyone?

you can study religion without believing it.

Ah so people who study theology who don’t believe are capable of critical thought, but not the ones who have faith – that really makes sense. If critical thought was alien to religion, there would be no encouragement to study theology, let alone requirement to for priests and lay readers.

Is love real? I’ve never seen it, held it, tasted it in a physical sense – but I’m sure it exists because of the effect it has on people.

Isn’t just a chemical trick to get us to reproduce?

The God things very tricky for me. Not really sure where I sit. I do think the old saying “there are no atheists in foxholes” is very true. Certainly is for me, not a literal foxhole but when I have been in a couple of very dodgy situations and with time to think about it.

Back on topic.

A visit to a mosque can’t be a “bad” thing. Got to help tolerance and understanding for some.

However, would you go to any other place, apart from the obvious ones, that had a policy of segregation?

Could be a question to ask why they segregate people when you visit?

The Koran can’t be translated since it’s the literal word of Mohamed as he spoke it. Once translated it’s no longer the Koran.

Whatever. Just translate it from the Arabic version then…

The bible tells us that a 500 year old man and his 100 year old sons with no experience of boat building, constructed an ark that houses all the animals of the world and their food. This man eventually lived to 900 years old. Now this we know is complete and total bollox but the Christian religion tells us this is true and as a Christian this is one of the many stories in the bible that you are supposed to believe in. Lets not even get onto evolution, the age or the earth and universe, so tell me why I should give you a break?

What? 😯

There may be some crazy Christians who believe such things, but there are fundamentalists is ALL walks of life.

I can unequivocally assure you that mainstream Christianity does not declare such stories to be literally true, never mind evolution and the age of the earth/universe.

A visit to a mosque can’t be a “bad” thing. Got to help tolerance and understanding for some

Do you think the folk that need some ‘tolerance and understanding’ are likely to go? NF coach trip?

As an aside to Woppit, I am wondering: You said what you did above about watching paint dry (which was mildly amusing), but do you really think that certain sources of human culture are not worth studying or understanding because they deal with an idea that you yourself do not believe in?

I mean, how can a person wrestle with the world’s great art and literature without having some knowledge of ancient Greek and Roman mythology, as well as Christianity? And don’t you think a person’s perception is going to be enhanced the better s/he know his or her sources?

patriotpro
Whatever. Just translate it from the Arabic version then…

Point missed.

Do you think the folk that need some ‘tolerance and understanding’ are likely to go? NF coach trip?

No. Unless to cause trouble, i suppose.

But if by going, I can increase my understanding of something I find fascinating and perhaps demonstrate that I am tolerant and welcoming of other types of cultures and religions (or is that virtue signalling) then maybe that’ll help both sides in the long run.

Q: can i go on a Gay pride march and support the LGBT community without actually being gay? My presence there is to show my support – I don’t see this as any different. With the added benefit of WIDE selection of tea and biscuits.