Ukraine

A pop up site in Lille was meant to open today… Except it hasn’t and no-one even knew it was meant to be there till they heard it on the news.

Not even any crisps and Kit Kats?

Well, who’d have thunk it?

Its almost as if they don’t actually want any Ukrainian refugees, but that couldn’t be the case, surely?

This Russian POW has the heart of a lion

And how brave are the Ukrainians telling the armed Russian forces, to their faces, the truth about their “libration” mission. Unbelievably brave. The old woman he talks about. That takes guts I don’t have.

Isn’t that what Blair and Bush did? Make up evidence of WMDs?

Not quite. They used cherrypicked evidence. A lot of the evidence was inconclusive, there were things that were consistent with a WMD programme but could also have other uses. There were intelligence sources of dubious reliability. What they did was cherrypicked the evidence that supported their argument and suppressed the evidence against it. It’s still extremely bad practice but it’s not the same thing as actually manufacturing fake evidence.

At the time it was obvious that they had decided to invade Iraq and were looking to justify it. It was also obvious that they hadn’t thought through the consequences and that the “they will greet us as liberators” claim was delusional. Saddam Hussein was a brutal tyrant and I don’t have any sympathy for him. Overthrowing him in itself wasn’t a concern for me, the concern at the time was that it was obvious that Iraqi and the region would be destabilized and the Iraqi people were going to pay a terrible price. It was a spectacularly stupid decision made even worse by the utter incompetence of the occupation that followed. Even if the evidence hadn’t been cherrypicked, it would still have been a spectacularly stupid decision.

Quick question – with all the western companies pulling out of Russia, McDonald’s, coke, apple etc.

What’s Russian employment law like – I’m guessing thousands if not millions now left without income?

What’s Russian employment law like – I’m guessing thousands if not millions now left without income?

MacDonalds are going to continue paying their staff. Can’t say for the test.

👍 thanks.

Chernobyl now relying on emergency diesel generators for the cooling. Should hold for a couple of days according to an expert in BBC at the mo.

I doubt China are too disappointed with the situation at all.

I think they will be very anxious about it. It has motivated liberal democracies to take security issues seriously. China’s neighours are as anxious about Chinese aggressiveness as European countries are about Russia. This is likely to show that alliances with democracies are a better bet than allowing authoritarian countries to dominate you. The last thing China wants is to be surrounded by wealthy democracies that have a defense treaty with the U.S.

Poopscoop
Full Member
Chernobyl now relying on emergency diesel generators for the cooling. Should hold for a couple of days according to an expert in BBC at the mo.

What’s going on there, is it Ukrainian sabotage? It makes no sense for Russians to turn off the power there?

^^ I think it’s just another way to worry the West.

Putin is scrabbling for any leverage at the moment.

Nor does it make any sense for the Ukrainian’s to sabotage it.

Saddam Hussein was a brutal tyrant and I don’t have any sympathy for him. Overthrowing him in itself wasn’t a concern for me

This is problematic logic though. You, based on the information that you have (been presented), feel that deposing someone is justified. I’m sure there are plenty of people in Russia that believe that Zelensky is a tyrant/NATO are oppressors/Ukraine is full of Nazis. This is based on incorrect data, of course, but you can’t argue with the logic employed – by which I mean a Russian of reasonable intelligence might come to the conclusion that invading Ukraine is justified.

Obviously, neither of us nor the average Russian citizen are sanctioning invasions so it’s moot, and I’d hope that those who were had access to all the information, not just what the government’s mouthpieces spout. But when you begin to justify invasions, it feels like a slippery slope.

What I don’t understand though is that there is no rule of war that says neither of the protagonists are allowed to purchase arms from a 3rd party? So what is simply stopping Poland from selling those planes to Ukraine? If they can’t buy arms from a NATO country as it might turn into WW3 then who can they buy arms from? Makes no sense why those planes and others aren’t already in the country in use.

McDonald’s are paying the staff I believe.
Not sure about the others.Russian currency is now worthless so paying them is literally peanuts.
If they kept open supplies would be limited and paying for supplies could be a huge issues for large companies.
I think in the long run it’s cheaper to shut up shop than face the problems from the west.
The McDonald’s are company owned not franchises like in the uuk so it’s a PR win but I bet it’s more a financial one.

As for coke they can just fuge off anyway.

Well, there’s a massive Russian convoy and attack and buld up of troops coming from that direction, so it makes more sense for the Ukrainians to do something there than the Russians.

@Superficial, I suggest you google ‘Halabja Chemical Attack/Massacre’ then come back and let us know if you’re still questioning if he was a tyrant.

In fact, here’s a little tour of his better known works as a kind and compassionate leader.
1974 — Dawa Killings
1980 — Fayli Deportations and Killings
1983 — Barzani Abductions
1988 — Al-Anfal Campaign
1988 — Halabja Massacre
1990s — Marsh Arabs Devastated
1990 — Invasion of Kuwait
1991 — Kurdish and Shiite Rebellions
1999 — Al-Sadr Assassination

What I don’t understand though is that there is no rule of war that says neither of the protagonists are allowed to purchase arms from a 3rd party?

There is also no rule that says you cant decide to attack those who supply weapons to your opponent. It has led to a few conflicts in the past.
Poland seem to want to have the USA involved in the process to try and discourage the Russians from launching strikes, limited or otherwise, against Poland.
The other problem is Poland still needs them currently. They are being phased out but not due for replacement yet so it looks like Poland are hoping to get some fast replacements (either F-16s or get the already scheduled F-35s delivered faster).

@Superficial, I suggest you google ‘Halabja Chemical Attack/Massacre’ then come back and let us know if you’re still questioning if he was a tyrant.

I wasn’t questioning anything about Saddam. Or Putin, for that matter. I’m sure they are/were both total rotters. I’m questioning the moral right of our leaders to send troops to remove people they don’t like.

We can only act on our own understanding of the world, which might be quite different from others peoples’ understanding. Everything we do is framed by our experiences and culture, notwithstanding the (mis)information we receive. Mr average Russian probably isn’t evil but may hold a very different opinion about NATO to you or I.

Let’s be honest, if your country bordered Ukraine, you wouldn’t feel very confident right now that other Western countries would come to your aid if RF starts salami slicing off bits of your territory.

Anyone watching PM Q’s at the moment?

Yes, feels like Miliband wrote Starmer’s questions… accelerating the shift to renewable energy and storage is key to our response, including restarting onshore wind expansion. And the response to the refugee situation is an embarrassment for everyone in the UK. Glad MPs from all other parties are joining Labour right now, one by one, calling for it to be changed.

The lies are incredible

“We’ve done more than any other country to resettle refugees”

He actually stood at the despatch box and said that with a straight face

pic.twitter.com/rM23D5Xhbe

— Cold War Steve (@Coldwar_Steve) March 8, 2022

And the response to the refugee situation is an embarrassment for everyone in the UK.

Sat in the car ranting at the radio – he has just lied again saying how we’ve led the world in helping refugees.

He expects visas to rise to hundreds of thousands??

Not a bloody chance that will ever happen.

Started watching it 5mins later had to turn BJ off…

He expects visas to rise to hundreds of thousands??

Not a bloody chance that will ever happen.

Theres only 37,000 or so Ukrainian nationals living in the UK so unless they all have three kids/partners the current visa  scheme couldn’t bring in 100s of thousands…..

He expects visas to rise to hundreds of thousands??

Maybe he got confused between how much he charged the Russian oligarchs for passports vs visas for Ukranians.
It is utterly pointless. He just lies and lies.

He’s now said that ‘The UK has led the way in economic sanctions against Russia’ while everyone openly laughed at him for making such a ridiculous claim.

Everyone is asking about the pitiful response to refugees and he’s just repeating the same lies. The latest ‘we are moving heaven and earth…’

Why on earth is he permitted to carry on spouting this utter bullshit in the face of clear evidence its all lies.

Lindsey Hoyle is an absolute waste of space

seosamh77
Full Member

I’m not a Trump fan, very far from it, but you think Putin would be threatening nukes if that mad bastard was still in office?

Well no, he waited til after his useful idiot/asset had done maximum damage to NATO and western alliances and credibility, then invaded after he’d been put in the bin.

It really does feel as if the world order has changed.  Interesting article about Japan’s significant support for Ukraine and a seismic shift in attitudes to defence spending etc similar to those recently seen in in Germany.

“First Germany, now Japan leaves pacifism behind”.

Lindsey Hoyle is an absolute waste of space

Tory frontbench beg to differ.

I’m really struggling to see the problem with Nato being involved

There will be many who don’t agree with Putin’s decision but have a similar feeling to him with regards Russia’s greatness and do not want to see it relegated in the world order.

Russia’s government needs to wake up and realise that military might isn’t the route to greatness. Russia has massive reserves of natural resources, it simply needs democracy and a willingness to trade with the rest of the world. It would get on very nicely. War creates isolation.

Bunch of people up there ^^ reckoned trade was an enabler for war. Overall I beg to differ looking at the last 60 years in Europe. Sure there will be exceptions but I reckon dependencies brought about by globalisation have led to an overall increase in stability.

He expects visas to rise to hundreds of thousands??

I heard Hundreds and thousands, which sounds the same but means different

@ scuttler

Im with you on that. Closer economic ties aren’t a guarantee of peace but there is visible evidence it can help maintain it.

He expects visas to rise to hundreds of thousands??

Weasel Words

Closer economic ties aren’t a guarantee of peace but there is visible evidence it can help maintain it.

Absolutely! The gas supply to Europe from Russia being the case in point. Turning that off would be the financial equivalent of Mutually Assured Destruction. It would have absolutely instant and completely devastating consequences for both parties.

That and not being able to get a Big Mac, obviously. How long will the population of any country put up with not having to remove the gherkin before they eat a burger?

Shits getting real now!

Exclusive: Music legend Sting tells the Mirror the days of private gigs for Russian billionaires 'are over'…in wake of Ukraine invasion. He previously played a 2016 show in Moscow for the family of an oligarch sanctioned last year. https://t.co/Xb5ML5Wdcl

— Tom Bryant (@MirrorTom) March 8, 2022

Dark quote from my 1990 Wapo article on McDonalds opening in Moscow: “The managers will be lifted out by helicopter straight from the roof of the cafeteria, just as American diplomats were airlifted out of the U.S. Embassy in Saigon in the spring of 1975."https://t.co/2pGNettrT9

— Michael Dobbs (@michaeldobbs) March 9, 2022

I’m looking forward to the day that better links between Russia and the rest of the world can be built up again… including making them put up with Sting sat in the lotus position playing a lute at parties, and opening up a bun trying to find where the actual burger is that was shown in the photos. Let’s face it though, that’s all only going to get going again after Putin is gone… and as he’s made it so that he can stay in his post ’till 2036… in reality that means his dethronement now only comes with his death, like a roman emperor.