summer rugby

thats a team issue, the balance of the backrow is all wrong.

I’d agree with that and imo it’s down to Croft – not because he’s playing badly – he’s doing exactly what’s being asked of him. I just don’t think his style of play is suited to delivering quick ball against a modern SH team. That said I’m not sure who’d replace him in the lineout if he was dropped?

What happens with the refs then,will they have super 15 refs for all tests or maybe French,argie? how does it work?

As I understand it mikey,
Today’s three officials stay. They ref 1 match each, and run line for the other two. They’re all a bit different, but I wouldn’t expect much variation from today. They’ve spent the week together to work on the consistency and agree on how things are. Didn’t see much to suggest the touches disagreed with the ref today, they could always have flagged an drawn his attention if they saw fouls he didn’t.

thanks loum that explains it,i’m far from an expert on the rules but most people in the pub were berating the ref for favouring the aussies,did he?

Rugby is a nightmare to ref, so much grey space in the rules but he was fairly consistent. Lions need to adapt and use the advantage he gives the team that takes ball in to the tackle.

did he favour the ozzies?
No, Not really.
He may have “interpreted the rules” in a more southern hemisphere style than we were used too, but he did that fairly with both sides.
Thought he was good myself.
I reckon next week will be pretty similar so we’d do well to learn from today. Main one- don’t touch the deck with a hand if you’re contesting the ball after a tackle. BOD and POC could do well to remember this.

edit

thinking back. the biggest decision he had to make went very much the lions way.
BOD was very lucky to get away with his block on the tackler to allow Cuthbert the run in for his try.

anyone else and that was an Oz penalty, but everyone loves BOD so he got away with it 🙂

I’d say don’t touch it unless it is clear cut, too much risk. Use this to you advantage and don’t over commit to the ruck, keep players on their feet. We had more ball so this should be their problem but they are clearly use to it!

Indeed the ref favoured the team in possession, Lions need to pick and go up the guts to draw in defenders, we saw it a bit but not enough IMO

Warren Gatland said: “Tommy Bowe is fit and available, he trained today and did contact.”

Centre Manu Tuilagi is also fit for Tuesday’s game at Melbourne Rebels.

“Manu will be available for Tuesday,” Gatland said. “Having firepower come back and more options is hopefully going to be good for the next two weeks.”

Will Tommy come straight back in? Cuthbert took his try well? Seems like Manu wont take part if he’s playing Tuesday.

Tommy is going to be back in if fit, he’s better than cuthbert on reputation alone.
I’d have Manu on the bench, there’s no one else that causes that much havoc around the pitch, even if its I creating space for others due to 3 players having to mark him.
Croft will stay in, I’d out (another) pint on it.

And actually, what is the differance needed between blind and open side flankers? I’m of the opinion that I want two fast, lunatic scavengers who will die to win the ball and turn over, and who love to tackle all day long.

highlights here

How great will be the North Folau battle if they both stay fit 😀

I’m of the opinion that I want two fast, lunatic scavengers who will die to win the ball and turn over, and who love to tackle all day long.

That’s not Croft. As the Lions showed you need someone to do the donkey work tackling and rucking. The Lions have put that on Warbs and given Croft more freedom to do what he does but I think it takes away from the team.

This will come over a bit anti welsh I suppose, but what was with the North taking the piss out of the scrum half before scoring (and which English player was it that got canned for the same thing, I’m racking my brains and I can’t remember) and how did Warbs get handed off so easily for the Israel try? He should have had him easily there.

AA, I wasn’t saying that was croft, I was asking what the differences were between the positions, not Croft / Warbs / Lydiate etc

Opensides are faster, job is to get to the ball and support open play. Blindsides are bigger and their job is to hurt people not fanny around on the wing trying to be an extra back.

and which English player was it that got canned for the same thing, I’m racking my brains and I can’t remember

Armitage, North is getting ready for playing for Scumhampton

how did Warbs get handed off so easily for the Israel try?

which try, cant see Warburton being handed off in either

How great will be the North Folau battle if they both stay fit

I was thinking the exact same thing.
Open sides are also better looking and more successful with the opposite sex than blindsides 😀
Croft is a brilliant flanker, he’s far more than an extra back and gatland knows it. I saw him involved in plenty of tackles and rucks today. Also made a good few yards. The smarts are knowing when to get involved and when to join the line. Its a bit of a black art (and not one I’ve mastered).

Still left Warburton to be top tackler though. I’d prefer someone like Lydiate to do the tackling and free up Warburton more, luckily the front five were exceptional today and were able to plug the gaps. We wont agree Wrecker but I will try and watch the game again whilst sober and see what Croft contributed because it didn’t seem like much. Heaslip carried more and tackled more, Warburton tackled a lot more.

AA you’re right, it was Corbs in the second try. Thought that 1 was a 7. He’s a bit fatter so not as quick, but a hand off’s still got to hurt from a winger as he goes past! Love the reasoning on North getting ready for Scumhampton!
I still can’t see why two fast guys in the same mode aren’t a good thing, as long as they tackle like maniacs.
I know you don’t like Croft, but even garland rates him, he must do something for the team…?

Sexton and halfpenny were better placed for the tackle than corbsiero (a prop chasing a winger!). Halfpenny had a good go, sexton didnt even bother. That’s not me being protective, watch the replay.

No I agree, I mistakenly thought it was Warbs who should have been flat out to make the cover (as any backrow player should). The other two should have had it, but sadly not.
Mind you, I think that the Aussi 14 was a lot, lot faster than he looks, and bloody hard to stop.

Still left Warburton to be top tackler though

The open side should always be top tackler, although BOD made more if I read the stats correctly. The 8 should also do more carrying. (Traditionally).

Open sides are also better looking and more successful with the opposite sex than blindsides

Very true although it is all relative…

In the SH, particularly NZ, openside is seen as one of the key positions – of similar importance to flyhalf which is one of the reasons I find England’s “all back row positions are interchangeable approach” so frustrating – Back, Dallagio and Hill were the last balanced backrow we had. A good openside is the key link man between backs and forwards and is key to quick ball as well winning the odd turnover – watch McCaw for the epitome of this.

Australia captain James Horwill has been cited after an alleged incident with Alun Wyn Jones in the opening Test against the British and Irish Lions.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/23018029

Not the best news for the Wallabies if they lose another one.

Cougs,be fair! This is generally a good thread with interesting debate. One poster seems to continue being silly but his target is being remarkably restrained and everyone else is ignoring the silliness. Please keep it open. There is a good series ahead of us!

If the openside does the most tackling and the eight carries more what is Crofts job. I dont totally agree that the 7 should tackle more either.

Oops!

citing at 15.40ish on timer 3mins on match clock, looks cynical but not brutal

Team to play Delve’s welsh/aussie allstars
15. Rob Kearney (Leinster / Ireland)
14. Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors / Scotland)
13. Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers / England)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens / England)
11. Simon Zebo (Munster / Ireland)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens / England)
9. Conor Murray (Munster / Ireland)
1. Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors / Scotland)
2. Richard Hibbard (Ospreys / Wales)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers / England)
4. Richie Gray (Scotland)
5. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers / England, captain)
6. Dan Lydiate (Dragons / Wales)
7. Sean O’Brien (Leinster / Ireland)
8. Toby Faletau (Dragons / Wales)
Replacements
16. Rory Best (Ulster / Ireland)
17. Makovina Vunipola (Saracens / England)
18. Matt Stevens (Saracens / England)
19. Ian Evans (Ospreys / Wales)
20. Justin Tipuric (Ospreys / Wales)
21. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers / England)
22. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester / England)
23. Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors / Scotland)

looks like we a re doomed to the same backrow next saturday

Tipuric on the bench?!?!?

could be

As a recently ex ref; consistency is what each team wants; didn’t happen.that is the nearest I get to slagging a ref. But what a game despite him. Warns did everything that the ref would let him and in my mind did a very good job of staying within Pollocks views on the breakdown. To use my phrase when talking about Scotland; “ye can only pish with the cock yiv got” both back rows were stifled by interp of breakdown

re watching the game sober… Croft was poor made some bad errors for both tries. On the first if your going to take a dummy so spectacularly at least take out the guy, then North wouldn’t have been caught in two minds about which support runner to track. On the second he shoots out of the line and misses.
Youngs the hooker was immense. Corbisero who I have never watched much was very very good. The Aus fringe defence led by the excellent Mowen really did a number on Phillips who failed to respond. AW Jones was brilliant and POC wasn’t far behind. Defence is a massive issue though, Lions lacked linespeed and organisation maybe Gatland should have taken Edwards over Farrel? Breakdown seemed OK once BOD and others adjusted to the ref, it was poor that they got pinged so much early on though seems to suggest a lack of preparation. Which is odd given the way they chose to use Warbs as a main tackler which suggests to me that they knew Pillock wouldn’t allow a contest. It was certainly wise not to pick Tipuric if Pillock was the ref. Joubert next week will be similar at the breakdown but might give more pens at scrum time (assuming the Lions are not daft enough to take off Adam this time). Poite for the last test.

I thought Pollock was consistent. Almost always favoured the team with the ball. I thought when he did Genia right on the line as the Lions attacked he got it wrong though as I thought Genia was the tackler so could get up and play the ball without being offside.
Do you reckon captain Aus will play in the next game or is he likely to be banned. AW Jones was sporting some nasty stud marks to the face.

He should get a rest for that. Next week is jobbie…sorry joubert. He is even more pedantic than Pollock and favours the attacking side.

Dean Ryan

Well, it’s a win, and it cannot be emphasised enough that that is the be-all and end-all for something as brief and intense as a Lions Test series. Get the win. Any way you can.

But the Lions got away with that, no question. There is a lot to work on. You could see Brian O’Driscoll in the huddle at the end making just that point to the group. It is so much easier, though, to work on putting things right when you’ve just won. That’s why we should pause before reading on, just to celebrate that fact…

Right, now on to next week’s to-do list. There were huge parts of the game that the Lions got taken out of. Australia, as we knew they would be, were so smart at removing threats from the Lions’ game.

Take the lineout. Australia marked up the areas that might have given the Lions something to work with. Ben Mowen lurked at the back, while Kane Douglas stood in the middle with James Horwill, who jumped backwards and forwards. And they left the front completely open. Sure enough, time and again, the Lions threw short; time and again, they were able to do nothing with the ball. Stats-wise, I don’t think the Lions missed a lineout, and if they’re short-sighted they might be pleased about that.

But this is where the Australians are so smart. They don’t care about lineout stats, they don’t care about scrum stats. What they care about is what you can deliver off the back of them. The Lions were 100% at the lineout, but they were virtually all to the front.

This not the kind of ball a Warren Gatland side likes. It means Mike Phillips is not able to get his running game going. Instead, it forces him to pass long. And then the Lions are operating behind the gainline, and with*no Jamie Roberts to smash them back up over it they are immediately under pressure.

The uncommitted defenders at the tail of the Australia lineout are able to make straight for the Lions midfield. Then, if the Lions don’t win that initial contest for the gainline – and the cards are stacked against them in this scenario – that race around the corner for the next phase is always in the defence’s favour. This completely took Phillips out of the game. Mowen was able to mark him, and every time he tried to make a break the defence was on the front foot.

Occasionally, the Lions varied it by shortening the lineout, but this left them with a midfield stacked with forwards. I’m surprised they didn’t drive it more, if throwing to the front was what they were intent on doing. They took all that front ball off the top. Then, when they did go long, they drove that. Also, they were very methodical – and slow – on their approach to the lineouts, whereas, on Australian ball, Horwill would just walk in and say “go”.

Not that Australia had many lineouts, particularly in the first half, which is a tactic that I talked about in last week’s column and one I really feel the Lions need to address. They just don’t kick for touch. They prefer to feed the Australia back three with long box-kicks. And Australia’s counter-attack is lethal.

Kurtley Beale’s break towards the end of the first half came straight from such a kick, and Israel Folau’s second try was worked a couple of phases after*one. The Lions defence is unstructured when facing a counter?attack like that, and no one seems to know who’s marking who. That’s a big concern for them.

Now, I’m surprised the Lions don’t look for a different option, and I’m surprised they’re worried about putting the Aussies into a lineout, where the defence is structured. And we saw what happened when Jonny Sexton sent up a high ball towards the end. Australia don’t play with a sweeper and they weren’t rock solid under the high ball. The Lions should look to contest more.

Just don’t do it, necessarily, anywhere near Folau. George North and Folau*–*now, that’s a heavyweight boxing contest. Unbelievable. We often say that Lions series are defined by exceptional moments. Well, North’s try was one of those. And Folau’s tries were defined by two people. Will Genia’s speed of thought is so much further down the line than anyone else’s. Folau, meanwhile, just looks like the next freak of nature who is 6ft 5in, sits on the wing and can do special things. It’s becoming incredible. This bloke should be playing in the back row.

So, make no mistake. We’re in a Test series here. The Lions should be very relieved to be one up.

How did they win it? Well, their scrum, for the first hour or so, was superior. More than that, though, Australia missed five kicks at goal. It is a problem for the Wallabies with no obvious solution, but the Lions cannot afford to rely on that particular advantage. There’s much to address. At least they can do it with the momentum of a Test win behind them.

I refer the thread contributors to this post.
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/summer-rugby/page/13?view=all#post-5064505
Last chance before I close it.

Cougar – Moderator
<mod>
Gentle warning to keep it civil, you two.

If there’s one thing guaranteed to make me more vexed than having to pick the bones out of a he-said-she-said playground argument to work out who’s at fault and whether warnings / bans are in order, it’s having to read through a bloody sports thread in order to do it. If I have to start wading back through twelve pages of team selection arguing and post-match post-mortems in order to do so I’ll have sense of humour failure in short order. So knock it off.
</mod>

Dear Mr. moderator,
Thank you for your time and attention.
Compared to any other 28 page debate on this forum, this one is sweetness and roses.
There has been a little nastiness, but the occasions are few and far between. When it happens, it’s invariably self-moderated by other contributors anyway.
And the nature of the subject – an ongoing series, a sequence of many smaller debates that change focus on a daily and weekly time-scale – means the argument moves on quickly and new debates appear before issues get repetitive and sterile.

The threats of thread closure appear inconsistent and harsh when compared with the shenanigans that kick off in the political or philosophical threads.

If your problem with this thread is partly down to your dislike for the subject matter, “a bloody sports thread“, then why not let someone else cover the moderating of it. It doesn’t need much, but probably seems more painful to someone who dislikes the subject.

The rest of us – cut it out.
And stay off the “report post” button please, it will end the thread.
If you don’t like a post, ignore it. If you don’t like a poster, ignore them. 😉

Whilst that may be true, my comments were based on the number of complaints this thread has generated, which is into double figures.

I’m aware that sports threads by their nature are mostly people passionately disagreeing with each other, and as a self-opinionated git myself I’m down with that, but when it descends into personal attacks it crosses the “acceptability” line.

Other than that, yes, well said.

Hope that clears things up.

Well said gents!

Anyway, I’m becoming quite a fanboi of Tom Youngs. I was quite critical of him after his first two tests last Autumn. Against the Aussies especially, he looked a little weak in the scrum…..I didn’t realise that at this point he’d only played 9 times at hooker for Leicester!!! Quite astonishing that a year on he’s a nailed on starter for the Lions and one of the players of the series so far! I know that he’s being helped by having Corbs and Adam next to him, but it’s still very impressive. Hopefully he can carry his for into next season…..Hartley will be a distant second choice by then for England and may have even fallen down behind Webber in the pecking order. Quite excited by the England pack if we can keep Corbs fit and settle on a back row.

@Cougar thanks for your consideration, wed like to keepmthe thread open and hopefully we can “play nice” from now on

Agreed with a number of prior posts

We played to the ref very poorly exaggerated by playing too much of the game in our half.
However overall we had the best of the refs decisions, had the Aussies run a block on BOD for a try there would be pages of protest here.
I think the Aussies had worked on defending Phillips, he didn’t have a great game but would still be my first choice
Halfpenny was world class
North outstanding and only 21
Adam Jones came off too early, he’s the sort of player the opposition are happy to see go off

Poor Aussie kicking lost them a match they should have won, had they gone 6-0 up early I think the Lions confidence would have been severely tested. As Barnes said with kickers reversed it could have been 20-5 to Autralia before half time.

The Lions looked a bit naive in playing high pressure rugby and will need to be better next week

@a_a thanks for the clip. Yup that’s a deliberate raked boot to the head of a player unable to protect himself and with the ball nowhere in sight on the opposite side to the ref (so imo very cynical) series ending ban I think 3 weeks min