So, free labour movement then?

🙂 I get that. As my father was born in Bangalore we always had to go up to the embassy to be “checked” was pretty blatant (’67 and ’75 I recall – we went in ’68 and applied to go back after returning). Bit more open now with many Asians I understand.

I have to say that in terms of leaving the EU, one of the issues that distresses me most is loosing free movement.. Trade deals we can sort, we can do legislation, we can can replace funding streams… But free movement is free movement.

I know lots of you don’t like it for all kinds of reasons. I don’t even take advantage of it much but it seems like a progressive and liberating principle to me. I like the principle of free movement.

What’s with all the fascination with Polish people? There are other EU countries.

Currently I have working for me:
2x Polish
1x Chinese
1x Hungarian
3x British
1x Lithuanian
1x German
In the next couple of weeks I’ll be supplementing them with:
1x Greek
1x Spanish

And we’re definitely not paying minimum wage, or living wage either. There’s a shortage of suitably qualified people from within the UK. Without free movement for people within the EU my business will not be able operate, it’s the same in most of the other businesses I work with.

British people abroad aren’t working on average 25%less of the yearly national wage say of Spanish people.

Are you saying EU citizens earn less on average than UK citizens? That could easily be explained by demographics and the ease of access of low paid service sector jobs. You’d have to compare jobs and wages like for like.

However, we could just ask the rest of the world what they do, the EU is the outlier, the exception.

Well no, because we’ve been building our work force based on freedom of movement for decades. People are having their rights removed. Since the EU is unique,and noone has ever left the EU before, there is no precedent for this. Asking other countries will not help because noone has experience of this.

so, not the same at all then?

Of course it’s the same. It’s undercutting however you look at it.
A case in point…pal of mine was earning good money (£1200 a week) as a self employed taper on building sites, working all day every day mind you, sometimes 12 hrs a shift. He had an offer of work in London but for £1800 a week so he went, but within weeks a gang of (not UK) workers came & offered to do the same job for about half the price. So he was undercut just like supermarkets undercut me with fuel prices.
I’m as guilty of course & now usually buy my fuel from a bloody supermarket! 🙄

Tricky though that. Jobs like building are subject to supply and demand pricing. More builders = lower wages.

Is £1200/w fair for a builder?

You have spoken to all 17.4 million of us, chapeau (although I don’t remember you asking)

did you ask if there was a coherent plan before voting? Chapeau right back at ya.

Tricky though that. Jobs like building are subject to supply and demand pricing. More builders = lower wages

Something I’ve always been aware of. You don’t get a complete skill set at the end of your apprenticeship or university or whatever that then sees you out for 40 years. You always need to be thinking about how you add to you saleable skills or what area you need to move into. I’ve met people from all walks who are good at this – they do well, they don’t worry about new (cheaper) people moving in because the new people are moving into the jobs that these people are moving out of.

Or, you could be self employed, doing an excellent job & enjoying a reasonable lifestyle. Then you find your’e being undercut on prices by workers from other countries, so you have to lower your rates which would probably affect your standard of living eventually.

Why difference does the “from other countries” make? Strip those words out, would your argument me the same?

Anyone been affected by that?

Yes every day – it’s called competition

@slow becasue perhaps previously the job paid better than that

Er, right!

Businesses will still get the cheap labour they want and need. The red tape will be removed from pesky things like the workers rights and the minimum wage

Seems likely. Never mind, manufacturing will return. We’ll be competing with Bangladesh making T shirts for Primark.

T-shirts? I reckon ones with “Independence Day. 23rd July 2016” on them would be big sellers. You could do something edgy like a cartoon bulldog cocking it’s leg on a caricature of Junkers underneath. Expand in to tea towels and mugs.

Sovereign Souvenirs – Taking the power back since 2016.

You could go Bangladesh, but why not get them done on Alibaba as part of the drive to forge new trade relations with China?

He had an offer of work in London but for £1800 a week so he went, but within weeks a gang of (not UK) workers came & offered to do the same job for about half the price.

1) Was it really for half the price or is that a nice headline?
2} Perhaps if your mate had lowered his overheads he’d have been more competitive.
3)Was it the same job (materials, workmanship etc)?
4) If they can do it for that price, why can’t he?

I have to deal with competition on a daily basis too.
EDIT: Having lived and worked abroad, I have a somewhat biased view on the advantages of free movement of workers.

Answer to 4/, Captain.

Because employers pay national insurance and pensions contributions in the country wher the company is based not where they work. In France in particular workers from almost anywhere else are cheaper.

Why difference does the “from other countries” make? Strip those words out, would your argument me the same?

We are talking about ‘free movement of EU workers’ aren’t we? I’d imagine most would be from other countries! I know what competition is as well, in that I couldn’t compete with supermarket fuel prices & consequently had the bank foreclose on me.

1) Was it really for half the price or is that a nice headline?
2} Perhaps if your mate had lowered his overheads he’d have been more competitive.
3)Was it the same job (materials, workmanship etc)?
4) If they can do it for that price, why can’t he?

It was a few years ago & ok, maybe wasn’t half the price but it was a lot cheaper than he was happy with so he came home!
Same job but I think the contractor had to supply materials. Workmanship? My mate was probably quite good as he was always working for decent companies.
He probably couldv’e done it for the same price but he was travelling to London on a Sunday night & spending the week in crappy digs then driving home on a Friday night & he could go ‘back’ to £1200 a week anyway.

The point I’m making is that if your’e happy with stiff competition then fair enough. I’m not saying anything that EU workers shouldn’t be allowed to work in the UK but remember that a lot will work for peanuts while still doing a good job, so when the boss says ‘I can get EU lads in cheaper than you so if you want to stay you’ll have to take a paycut’

*probably not as simple as that but you get the idea*

I couldn’t give a monkeys, I’m going part time in 8 weeks! 😛

Indeed – it’s always been well known in the construction industry that there will always be people willing to undercut the locals by living in a portakabin on site and send home money to their family who live somewhere cheaper where work prospects and pay are not as good (see Auf wiedersehn pet for example)
Freedom of movement across Europe just pushes that to another extreme, with an almost endless supply of cheaper employees – but one that seems even more ridiculous when they can then claim UK tax credits to send back to their family in a third country, further subsidising the undercutting of wages.

did you ask if there was a coherent plan before voting? Chapeau right back at ya.

I was a member of the broader campaign team. We where not the government, it is the government’s job to implement the result, The Bank Of England, Treasury and Government made a plan for a Leave vote. We in the campaign team said quite clearly the day after, the week after nothing wouod change, we would remain in the EU just like before. It was Cameron who said he would trigger Article 50 immediately – except the resigned instead.

AP I answer. I think the issue with Poles is they are the number 1 nationality, in 10 years since they joined the EU they have come from nowhere to be the number 1 overtaking India which had built to 850,000 people over 100 years (approx numbers)

there’s a shortage of suitably qualified people from within the UK

Then we should have a process of speaking to local job centre about that so they can plan and arrange training. In the meantime your required immigrant workers can have a 3m or 6m visa as required by the job amd entitlement to zero in-work benefits

The point I’m making is that if your’e happy with stiff competition then fair enough.

The point you’re making is that he chose not to do the work as he didn’t want to make sacrifices. I’m sure the foreigners were well chuffed that they had to work away from their families, but it’s not about them, is it?
He didn’t lose work to foreigners, he simply didn’t want the work enough as he had other work. I’m also sure the local London boys were equally hacked off that your mate was going down there and undercutting them. But that’s not the point either.

ninfan – Member
Indeed – it’s always been well known in the construction industry that there will always be people willing to undercut the locals by living in a portakabin on site and send home money to their family who live somewhere cheaper where work prospects and pay are not as good (see Auf wiedersehn pet for example)

Yes I agree – they made a TV show about it a while back, set in Germany I think.

Jamba – it takes about 4-6 years after A levels to train engineers to the minimum standard I need – 2 years of that is on the job training. I can’t find many capable natives in Britain (there are some) so I need to top them up with other nationalities. Recently that’s meant Greeks. Talking to the job centre would be very little use and 6 month visas less so.

I’m also sure the local London boys were equally hacked off that your mate was going down there and undercutting them. But that’s not the point either.

At the time he wasn’t undercutting the local lads, it was the going rate for the work that was being done & everyone was happy. Then the guys from the EU turned up & undercut everyone.
So, it is the point.

If we want world class companies you need to be able to easily employ the best, no matter where they come from. Points based Visa schemes are generally slow and inefficient, the current free movement in the EU is very fast and efficient, we can interview on Monday and offer the job then and there. Sorting out a Visa or getting an ‘sponsored place’ would take weeks if not months (we do these for some overseas offices and it’s a huge workload and very expensive). If we had to let all our EU staff go, we’d just be less competitive having lower skilled locals do the work (there is a massive skills shortage in the UK).

If we want world class companies you need to be able to easily employ the best, no matter where they come from.

Agreed, so why limit yourself to recruiting from the EU?

At the time he wasn’t undercutting the local lads

Based on earlier dodgy reporting, I’ll just sit here stroking my beard.

Agreed, so why limit yourself to recruiting from the EU?

What do you mean? Where has the EU prevented a company from trading within its borders?

there is a massive skills shortage in the UK).

Absolutely agree on this. Why has this been allowed to happen over the years? When I left school at 15 I started as an apprentice plant fitter, what happened to those kind of schemes?

Based on earlier dodgy reporting, I’ll just sit here stroking my beard.

Sorry Capt. It was about 12 years ago & I don’t have actual facts at hand but that was the jist of it.

When I left school at 15 I started as an apprentice plant fitter, what happened to those kind of schemes?

Still apprenticeships around – they get advertised on telly. Anyone know if/why they are inferior to the way things used to be?

Of course, interesting to note that a long time ago when esselgruntfuttock was leaving school 😉 people’s jobs were a lot more secure, their futures were much more certain, so arguably apprenticeships made more sense…?

If we had to let all our EU staff go, we’d just be less competitive having lower skilled locals do the work

This. Meanwhile all our EU competitors can recruit from a pool of 420m people.

Of course, interesting to note that a long time ago when esselgruntfuttock was leaving school

HaHa! Very true. It was February 1972 & IIR there were 6 candidates for one job.

molgrips – Member

Still apprenticeships around – they get advertised on telly. Anyone know if/why they are inferior to the way things used to be?

I noticed that the government claims to be increasing apprenticeships. So I had a look and discovered that all it really means is they’ve rebranded lots of low paid work and existing training schemes as “apprenticeships”.

So I looked a bit closer and discovered that the entry level version of the job I used to do in the bank, is now an apprenticeship. It seems to be exactly the same job- basically the rank and file of branch banking, absolutely core to the business- but now it’s paid less, with a meaningless “qualification” element which is essentially just the standard job training that they always offered. Oh and now the bank gets money for doing it.

Of course there are still proper apprenticeships, and no doubt many of these modern apprenticeships really are adding value. But in many cases it’s fundamentally a scam. Once again one of those situations where the last labour government somewhat devalued a concept and then the current tory government took that opened door and ripped the arse out of it.

Good stat- there’s been an 900% increase in apprenticeships for the over 60s, simply because of the rebranding and devaluation of the word.

1. An indigenous British couple in their 30’s, with two school age kids he works offshore (and carefully manages his tax to his best advantage!) and she has not had a job since the kids were born 12 years ago. A change in the O&G industry means his contract is not renewed.

2. A Polish women is married to a British man, they have two pre-school kids. He is made redundant from his job.

3. A Polish man lives with a British woman for 2 years, and she is expecting his child and about to start maternity leave. He is made redundant from his job.

4. An unmarried Polish couple with a child born in the UK, he’s been earning whilst she looked after the child. They have an argument, he assaults her and leaves, going back to Poland.

5. A married Polish couple who both work for the same firm, and have done for 9 months since they came here from Poland expecting to settle and raise a family. They’ve just bought a house. The company suddenly makes them both redundant. They are skilled but might take 3+ months to find a job and have no savings (because it went on the house deposit).

6. A Polish builder who lives alone in the UK for almost 2 years, He crashes his mountain bike and breaks his leg. He will be off work of 12 weeks. He has no income. His parents are no longer alive.

7. An 18 year old Polish girl, who arrived here with her Polish parents 3 years ago. Her parents have decided to go back to Poland. She wants to stay. She is studying an HND at a local college. She has cerebal palsy which causes her some mobility issues.

8. A British couple who have 3 kids, neither have worked in the last 10 years. He’s been signed off sick with depression for most of that time.

9. A Polish woman (been here for 4 yrs) who lives with a Latvian man (been here for 18 months) . They have a 2 month old baby born in the UK. She is on maternity leave. He gets disqualified from driving in the UK for 6 months and so loses his driving job.

10. A British couple who have been living in Australia for the last 10 years, return to the UK after having a child to be closer to family. They left the UK after university and have never paid any UK tax. Soon after returning they have an argument and she moves out. He’s devastated and distracted at work, which gets him his P45…

Now replace the word Polish with Irish in all the above and answer again!

Isn’t this what civil servants do (my arse) assess cases based on facts rather than roll up roll up doors are open come on in.

Just what exactly was wrong with Visa’s again.

@footflaps EU is stagnant with 10% unemployment rising to 25% amongst the young so something is wrong with your scenario. EU is the only place/”trade block” in the world with this system. There is a message in there.

@igm ok I get all that so we need visas / foreign workers for 2 years whilst we sort it locally. The rest of the world manages fine

The sad fact is that the UK education systems has been geared-up for graduates with pitiful results – most now leave with £40k+ debt and only 50% will be employed in a job that uses that degree. The majority will never earn enough to start paying off their student loans. Because of the UK workforce demographic, we need 30,000-40,000 new technicians/engineers each year just to replace those retiring – only 20,000 apprenticeships are provided a year so there’s a good case for immigration right there, particularly as our financial services industry is about to decamp to Europe.

The Dutch have a good system, iirc, where kids are guided towards either vocational or academic educational careers from as young as 12(ish). The important factor is that the vocational courses are not seen as being lesser courses than the academic.
Glad we’ve left that sort of thing behind us.
#betteroffout

Many European countries too where they can start learning a vocation at school at 14/15 that then leads onto a formal apprenticeship. We have an education system fixated by exams, standards and university when the sad fact that many have meaningless qualification is subjects for which there is no work. The irony is that our Higher Education systems will also suffer due to no EU research funding and fewer EU students – it’s a right cluster-f***. I have a Slovakian acquaintance who is a highly-qualified engineer and is delighted to work in the UK and we really need people like him in industry.

This is a huge debate. Is school the place for vocational qualifications or should it be academic (and soft job skills) and then vocational on the job or at college?

molgrips – Member

This is a huge debate. Is school the place for vocational qualifications or should it be academic (and soft job skills) and then vocational on the job or at college?

TBH further education is the right place for most vocational qualifications. You can do further education in schools or in colleges, neither approach is right or wrong… but we do it in colleges mostly and in professional training establishments and so that’s how we should mostly continue to do it, as the disruption to change it would inevitably be greater than any theoretical benefit. Maybe we’d do it differently if we started over but that’s not really important because we can’t spend the next 20 years starting over.

So much of it is just an attitude shift. I meet 5th year pupils and they’re saying “where am I going to go to university” not “will I”. A kid says they’re going to college and their mates make mong faces because if you don’t go to university you must be stupid. Further education is not respected. I meet parents whose kids just barely missed our entry requirements and I say, do a 2 into 2 articulation, go to college and get a hnd then come into university in 3rd year. You’re more likely to complete, more likely to get a first and more likely to go directly into employment, than if you’d got that A you wanted and come straight here. And statistically you’re also less likely to be an asshole. And parent makes a face and goes off to talk to another university because they’d rather send their kids to any uni that’ll take them rather than college with a better outcome.

Personally I think we should bring a lot of vocational qualifications into schools too but that’s expensive and there’s not much will to make it happen. It can’t be done at the cost of any other part of the system, is the issue, it has to be additional. And unlike universities it won’t make money. I think the broad answer is, we need to take back most of the money we give to businesses so they train their employees, because they would need to do it anyway.

The UK as a whole isn’t as good at further education as it should be. Bizarrely we have the world’s most respected further education qualifications, and they’re more respected in China than they are here.

So, free labour movement then?

Has seen people from other parts of the EU come to the UK and claim to be able to do my job. The result has been I haven’t had a wage rise since 2010!!

Furthermore, I see no chance of a wage rise, in the future.

Thank you, EU.

The Dutch model plays to the pupils’ strengths but doesn’t neglect academic. They get a rounded education that gently moves in one direction or the other.
We’ve put far too much emphasis on getting a degree and forgotten why we should be getting the degree at the expense of everything else.
Captainsasquatch Ba(hons)

Furthermore, I see no chance of a wage rise, in the future.

Thank you, EU.

This might not be down to the economy at large?

I’m not seeing any competition from EU citizens and I still haven’t had a payrise in years. You may not be blaming the right thing there. You know what confirmation bias is, right?

molgrips – Member
I’m not seeing any competition from EU citizens and I still haven’t had a payrise in years. You may not be blaming the right thing there. You know what confirmation bias is, right?

As I’m sure you’re aware. a) you know me better than that, unless you’re playing games, again.

b) that’s a nice opening remark, but at least you didn’t call me a bigot, xenophobe or racist. But the night may still be young.

So, here’s the news. My contract expired 30th June. I requested a pay rise. Long story short, the request was refused. The girl I sit next to is from Romania. She’s mid 20s. I’ve done this job for 21 yrs. Yet my company thinks she can do the same job as me, for LESS money and so therefore see no reason to grant my request for an increase.

Mine, isn’t a story of a lazy Brit, too proud to clean the toilet, sweep the street or fry your big Mac. Instead, as an educated, professional, I am having the ass torn out of my career and earning power, because the EU clings to a principal of free movement (whatever that means) which was agreed at a time when Europe was litterally rebuilding itself, post WW2!

The very fact, that without “knowing”the facts about what your fellow countrymen may be be experiencing at the hands of Brussels, you ask me about confirmation bias appears to be ignorant, or arrogant, at best! Indeed it makes me wonder who you think you are to ask me if I know what confirmation bias is.
Honestly, have a word with yourself. Something along the lines of just because the EU isn’t screwing you, doesn’t go to say it isn’t screwing your neighbour!
🙄

Mine, isn’t a story of a lazy Brit, too proud to clean the toilet, sweep the street or fry your big Mac. Instead, as an educated, professional, I am having the ass torn out of my career and earning power, because the EU clings to a principal of free movement (whatever that means) which was agreed at a time when Europe was litterally rebuilding itself, post WW2!

But that happens with hot shot young graduates with sunshine blown up their arses from an early age, 2 of those can be employed for the price of you. They could be be from anywhere, British or EU migrants.

unless you’re playing games, again.

I never play games, seriously. My reasoning may not be clear, but it’s always intended to be.

The girl I sit next to is from Romania. She’s mid 20s. I’ve done this job for 21 yrs. Yet my company thinks she can do the same job as me, for LESS money and so therefore see no reason to grant my request for an increase.

Alright, but why is it significant that she’s from Romania? Would it not be possible for that younger person to be cheaper and also British?

Something along the lines of just because the EU isn’t screwing you, doesn’t go to say it isn’t screwing your neighbour!

You should know me better than that!