just because the EU isn’t screwing you, doesn’t go to say it isn’t screwing your neighbour!

Is my neighbour the person next door, a work colleague, the next town, the next nation (I’m Welsh) or the next country?
Who is my neighbour?

EU clings to a principal of free movement (whatever that means)

Doesn’t do you any favours… But you know how you can get a job in the next town without having to live there or registering there or do anything- just drive there and work, you can do that across Europe too. It’s quite neat when you think about it. 😉

Anyone else idly googling where else they could work in Europe? Suddenly feels like a right I’d like to use before it is snatched away.

Anyone with an interest in the outdoors should spend the next couple of years in Scandinavia whilst they still can!

Many European countries too where they can start learning a vocation at school at 14/15 that then leads onto a formal apprenticeship. We have an education system fixated by exams, standards and university when the sad fact that many have meaningless qualification is subjects for which there is no work.

The point of acadmeic acheivements is that you have learnt how to learn, so equiping you for being able to learn new stuff or retrain yourself throughout your working life.

The point of acadmeic acheivements is that you have learnt how to learn, so equiping you for being able to learn new stuff or retrain yourself throughout your working life.

Do we have to assume that everyone has an academic ability for this to work?

My skills are more appropriate to Brussels, apparently. I do have an interest in beer though. And I could drive to the Alps.

MrSmith – Member
But that happens with hot shot young graduates with sunshine blown up their arses from an early age, 2 of those can be employed for the price of you. They could be be from anywhere, British or EU migrants.

Nice try (why am I not surprized someone tries to turn this into a race issue) but her nationality is irrelevant. The fact is she has unintentionally disrupted an economic ecosystem. I don’t blame her for seeking and working for a better life. But at what cost??????

molgrips – Member
I never play games, seriously.
Your thread/posting history suggests otherwise.
It’s ok, either you don’t need to admit past wrong doing, afterall its the web. Or you’ve become a reformed “character”…

molgrips – Member
Alright, but why is it significant that she’s from Romania? Would it not be possible for that younger person to be cheaper and also British?

Sadly for you, I see the trap you’ve set there, so no pitch forks, tonight. Where she originates from, isn’t the issue. Rather it’s the EU policy of adhering to free movement without regard for the impact it may have. That is the issue. For me and many millions of brits. She works for much less and so **** the established, prevailing economic landscape. All to the benefit of the shareholders and business owners. Yippe-ky-ay!

Everything in moderation, right? Including economic migration? Well, not in 1950s Europe!

You can run-get your pitch forks now.

Your thread/posting history suggests otherwise.
It’s ok, either you don’t need to admit past wrong doing, afterall its the web. Or you’ve become a reformed “character”…

You’re just misunderstanding, seriously.

Rather it’s the EU policy of adhering to free movement without regard for the impact it may have.

But what’s the difference between a Romanian and a Brit doing it? Is it because there are simply more people prepared to undercut you because the labour pool is larger?

Nice try (why am I not surprized someone tries to turn this into a race issue) but her nationality is irrelevant.

Which was my point. 🙄

“Sadly for you, I see the trap you’ve set there, so no pitch forks, tonight. Where she originates from, isn’t the issue. Rather it’s the EU policy of adhering to free movement without regard for the impact it may have. That is the issue. For me and many millions of brits. She works for much less and so **** the established, prevailing economic landscape. All to the benefit of the shareholders and business owners. Yippe-ky-ay!”

As you say, ‘where she originates from isn’t an issue’… So how is this connected to the EU policy of free movement? If your esteemed employer is trying to cut costs they’ll do it any which way. Brexit isn’t going to stop immigration.

If you are really interested in this debate, keep an eye on openeurope.eu. It’s not full of love for the EU, but it’s painfully realistic about how little effect leaving the EU will have on immigration. The language is of window dressing rather than real impact because employers are demanding workers, both skilled and unskilled and the UK labour market is not looking flexible enough to provide them.

http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/what-might-post-brexit-uk-immigration-system-look-like/

molgrips – Member
You’re just misunderstanding, seriously
You nearly cost me the privilege of posting here. Your actions were avoidable. I won’t forget it.

But what’s the difference between a Romanian and a Brit doing it? Is it because there are simply more people prepared to undercut you because the labour pool is larger?
That is part of it and a major reason Sir Sugar et al like the EU.
But also, wages that seem low for the UK are a handsome reward for those from other areas of the EU.

Have you stopped to wonder. If our friends from Eastern Europe are a worthy and valued addition to an economy which already boasts more people than jobs.
Why Sir Sugar doesn’t pay them the same wage as me?

And if he does. Then perhaps he can explain his preference for people from the EU over those already here.

Alright, but why is it significant that she’s from Romania?

Possibly because she’s willing to take lower money to get into the UK as its safer, with better healthcare than at home and she’ll live in a shared house saving/sending money home. Our Slovak au-pair saved most of the £50 a week we paid her and sent it home to her parents who used it for a flat deposit. When you get huge disparities in incomes etween countries what seems a low wage to us looks like a fortune when its sent home. Thats whay many immigrant workers leave their families at home and any in-work benefits / child allowance looks like a fortune. They can undercut a UK breadwinner as he/she is trying to support a family at UK prices not Easten European

But also, wages that seem low for the UK are a handsome reward for those from other areas of the EU.

Does the Romanian not live in the UK then and incur the same costs of living?

Have you stopped to wonder. If our friends from Eastern Europe are a worthy and valued addition to an economy which already boasts more people than jobs.

But not in many areas, apparently.

would you have kept your job if you had not asked for a pay rise ?

we all want to pay less for products and services .

As above why does Ashley/JJB Sports have mostly non-Brits in their warehouse ? Are they genetically better suited to the work than Brits, are we too stupid or lazy ?

Does the Romanian not live in the UK then and incur the same costs of living?

Yes in a shared house, spends little, drivers her old car from home. Not supporting a family here. Saves / sends money home to “set her up”

@ Jambalaya , you had an immigrant au pair , you paid £50 a week ???? 😆

Is it because there are simply more people prepared to undercut you because the labour pool is larger?

Lets say, for instance, that you grew up in the UK and have just been to a UK university, you have, as suggested before, £40k debt to clear, you’re 24 years old and would like to start saving for the deposit on a house, and plan to have a family in the future, you’re also prudent and looking to the future so think you ought to pay into a pension that will keep you in a reasonable standard of living in the future.

Romanian of equivalent age who was planning to work in the UK for a few years and return home would be in a completely different financial position wouldn’t they, so would be willing (able to) to work for less.

On top of that – we keep hearing how theres a skill shortage, how the NHS etc. are propped up on foreign workers. Well, if that was the case, what would you expect to happen to wages without being able to recruit from abroad? In order to recruit the best people, then surely you would have to pay more?

Our Slovak au-pair saved most of the £50 a week we paid her and sent it home to her parents who used it for a flat deposit.

Look at all those future, new customers. Yummy.
I’d rather see money being spread around like this in order to keep economies bouyant than going into the pockets of a few, never to be seen again.
On the other hand you might be right, we’re better off without them.

Yes in a shared house, spends little, drivers her old car from home. Not supporting a family here.

Same as many UK people but ok.

And I am not sure about this £49k of debt to clear. You don’t have to clear it really, do you?

But aside from all of this, why aren’t you complaining about the government who gave you this debt? The government who encouraged house prices to become unaffordable? Those problems are the ones that that need solving.

But instead of finding creative solutions, people are simply heaping it all on the EU.

so Nifan if you have to pay poeple more , where does that extra money comes from ?

Yet my company thinks she can do the same job as me, for LESS money

Can she?

FWIW in my old job we accepted a company wide paycut in order to avoid redundancies. Nothing to do with free movement, just clients not paying up for the work done. That was in year 3 of the 7 I was there.

On top of that – we keep hearing how theres a skill shortage, how the NHS etc. are propped up on foreign workers. Well, if that was the case, what would you expect to happen to wages without being able to recruit from abroad? In order to recruit the best people, then surely you would have to pay more?

I was talking to someone who works in the NHS and she reckoned that the fact we had free movement from the EU had effectively discriminated against immigrants from outside the EU, and implied the quality of staff had suffered.

I read an article recently which reckoned a lot of EU immigrants were fearful of being ejected because they would not pass the immigration requirements for countries outside the EU, so that implies that if we didn’t have EU free movement then we might actually benefit by having a higher quality workforce…

Oh yeah: the working hard and sending all your money home to set yourself up back home thing – that would also happen with the points based skilled worker system. I’ve worked with Australians doing exactly that, in IT.

Can she?

she can if her living costs are less, as already discussed.

So basicaly free movement of labour supports/causes downward wage pressure.

Not great for the working classes in particular, or workers rights, but great for corporations and those of a Tory idealogy.

But strangely also great for the majority of this forum, who obviously have secret Tory tendencies.

There are more non-EU migrants working in the NHS than EU migrants…

that would also happen with the points based skilled worker system

yes, but when you have skills in an indemand area you can easily move around, but not in most working class professions, you have to just sit there and take being shat on.

There are more non-EU migrants working in the NHS than EU migrants…

so? that was her impression.

yes, but when you have skills in an indemand area you can easily move around, but not in most working class professions, you have to just sit there and take being shat on.

They just find away to get cheap labour in around the points visa, us has of real protection for workers and leaky borders, Oz does working holiday visa’s etc. Expect nothing to really change in many ways just remove the benefits

TurnerGuy – Member

I was talking to someone who works in the NHS and she reckoned that the fact we had free movement from the EU had effectively discriminated against immigrants from outside the EU, and implied the quality of staff had suffered.

This is a bit of a Faragism. Reality is, EU and ROW immigration are separate. Free movement from the EU has never stopped anyone recruiting from outwith the EU. The only thing that does that, is whether or not they can get a visa, and that’s entirely a matter of government policy.

Basically it’s another “blame the eu for a thing we do to ourselves”

philx1975 – Isn’t this what civil servants do (my arse) assess cases based on facts rather than roll up roll up doors are open come on in.

Not really, civil servants usually apply the rules set by parliament, rather than invent the rules. Jamba seems to think we should listen to his vision of what the rules should be – so I am interested in where he draws the line, and the detail behind his ‘plan’. Afterall, he’s the only person in the country who has shared any sort of vision…

Why do we have to kick out anyone who is already here? Just put some controls in on future immigration. Fairly simple and fair.

Why do we have to kick out anyone who is already here? Just put some controls in on future immigration. Fairly simple and fair.

Why because apparently they were the problem.
And future immigration give up trade for movement etc.

would that the issues only be trading though, many people voted out because of the diminishing power of our government to make decisions that affect the people it has been elected to govern. A system where Malta has proportionally 15 times the power than the UK does.

many people voted out because

Many people voted out for lies, BS and manipulation… many people woke up and had no idea what they had voted for, some voted for the reasons written on busses that turned out to be BS & lies… but yeah notions of power was right up there along with the anti foreigner angle.

you do realise all the brexitiers are arch-neoliberals with a low wage, low cost, let the market decide ethos

You have spoken to all 17.4 million of us, chapeau (although I don’t remember you asking)

I imagine that the first quote is referring to the people who will negotiate brexit as opposed to the people who voted to leave the EU. I also imagine that a lot of the people who voted either way don’t know what neoliberal means.

Can you explain the Malta thing please?

There are more non-EU migrants working in the NHS than EU migrants…

So visa system works then.

I have spent quite some time speaking with a friend who works in recruitments / HR in the NHS. They voted Remain for various reasons but agreed a visa only system would still work for the NHS

My friend voted for ‘leave’ as she wanted to get rid of Cameron and knew nothing of the actual vote. I told her she was an idiot as she had no idea what she was voting for.

My 19 yo nephew voted out yet he has a Finnish boyfriend. Mind he’s going the way of Jamba as all he seems to post is extreme right wing stuff these days from sites like breitbart. His parents have just shouted ‘immigrants!’ to everything and also had no idea of what they were voting for. Just they wanted ‘immigrants!’ (their constant refrain) out and thought everything would be fine in the country if only we could kick them all out.

Yes, I do believe some of my family are racist. 🙁

Mind he’s going the way of Jamba as all he seems to post is extreme right wing stuff

I am very much centre ground politically. The view that a desire for controlled immigration is a “far right” policy is nonsense. The whole of the rest of the world isn’t “far right”