Scottish independence- where do you stand?

Junkyard – lazarus
One wonders why they kept invading [ over a circa 350 year period] and getting beat if it was just a cost benefit thing and they wer enot interested.

Your either poor on history or trying to get a reaction

Neither of these make me think highly of you.I always thought the Romans not having much time in Scotland was more to do with them being stretched thinly and having to allocate other forces elsewhere on main land Europe, which is why the borders were transient during Roman times in Scotland. I.e. When the natives were less uppity elsewhere, attention turned back to the conquest of Scotland. I don’t really think there was much beating to it. (Although that is a nice wee myth that grew up through the ages to makes scots feel nice that they defeated the Romans! :D.)

ps how the hell did this get on to the Romans? 😀

ps how the hell did this get on to the Romans?

Apologies I think it was my fault. 🙂

Why would you think less of someone with a poor knowledge of history?

I dont in general but I do when they state a historical fact that is untrue, especially so when they are on the internet and they could check it out first.

Grum that is very accurate but you know I hate to do long posts when one word will do
can i quote you on that 😉

when they state a historical fact that is untrue

Which fact is untrue? How does that work?

Can i call him a troll yet 😉

Junkyard – You have tried to insult me and belittle my knowledge of the Ancient Romans. When I ask you to tell me what part of my post was wrong you call me a troll!

No come on – who’s trolling now? 🙂

Can i call him a troll yet

winston_dog – Member
…The Romans were as far North as Inverness and built a fort there I believe. They didn’t stay for very long. I would imagine it would be a bit like Afghanistan at the moment, lot’s of hard fighting brave local tribes. Yes you can use massive military force to knock them down but they keep coming back and in the end it just isn’t worth it so you pull out.

Perhaps we shouldn’t all believe Roman propaganda, there’s another view.

They did a few exploratory invasions at great cost.

As far as there being nothing worth having in the North they were met by an army of tens of thousands. The logistics of that is hardly the work of unsophisticated savages and suggests a considerable civilisation with the resources to organise.

Despite claiming a great victory at Mons Graupius the world’s greatest military power zipped back down south real quick. Maybe it was a bit like the great victories the German propaganda was claiming in WW2 as the Russians got closer and closer.

If you look at the pattern of marching camps near Inverness, they are pretty close together which suggests the Romans were having a really hard time. Not to mention the odd obliterated from history legion.

Just because the Romans wrote the history of their campaign, doesn’t mean we should believe it – their retreating actions demonstrated the more likely truth of the situation.

That’s the first time Ive ever seen the Picts compared to the Red Army.

epicyclo – I don’t see what is fundamentally different in your summary from mine?

It seems be generally agreed that the Scots/Picts fought a guerrilla war against the Romans and when they forced to fight a pitched battle against them they suffered a defeat.

This has parallels with the current and previous military activity in Afghanistan, the Boer War the Russian Partisans operating behind the lines in WW2 and countless others.

Basically, the locals made things so uncomfortable for them they left. Not quite the same as chasing them out.

According to Roman Britain website there is (a suspected) Roman Fort at Thomshill just south of Elgin so pretty much Inverness.

This is quite some derailing, I’m impressed.

Can someone knock up a youtube video to show who was the bestest. With top of the trumps style ratings out of 10.

Maybe a section with a deadliest warriors style bit too.

20 things I love about Scotland………
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/11/26/20-things-we-love-about-scotland_n_4342857.html?utm_hp_ref=uk-comedy

I don’t see what is fundamentally different in your summary from mine?

the bit where you claim they did a cost/benefit thing when the reality is they failed to get a foothold/conquer despite multiple attempts

they failed to get a foothold

No they didn’t.

the historical information is freely available on the interweb as well as this thread. People can read and decide how accurate or otherwise your account is.

dangerousbeans – Member
According to Roman Britain website there is (a suspected) Roman Fort at Thomshill just south of Elgin so pretty much Inverness.

I believe that one is a marching camp. The Romans erected them as temporary protection when on the move in hostile territory. A bit different from a permanently garrisoned fort. The amount of labour involved plus the loss of time means this was not done unless necessary for protection when on the move in hostile territory.

Of course, the Romans weren’t the only ones who built camps or forts, so Roman features are no guarantee that the Romans did it. For example there is the remains of what is called King David’s Castle near Muir of Ord and supposedly from that period in Scottish history. It’s buried under dense undergrowth so not easy to find. When I checked it out I was struck by how closely it conformed to a Roman fortlet, so I paced it out and the dimensions were close – right down to the surrounding moat.

winston_dog – Member
It seems be generally agreed that the Scots/Picts fought a guerrilla war against the Romans and when they forced to fight a pitched battle against them they suffered a defeat.

It’s only generally agreed if you believe the Roman history. There was no written record from the other side. If you judge by what happened next, it doesn’t look like a victory.

2* yes in this household.

What’s the running score then?

Knowing very little about it is the proposed split full or some half arsed affair? Split the NHS, Pension pot, military, taxation system?

I would imagine a proper split would be hugely expensive and something either country could ill afford in the present climate.

How much of it is down to Alex Salmonds ego trip of being the man to give Scotland Indepenence?

Would the English government then keep all ship building in England? What are the repercussions for England and Scotland?

Split the NHS, Pension pot, military, taxation system?

NHS is already split – as are education and judicial systems. Other stuff would split, but sometimes quite simple as lots of things have separate Scottish divisions – BBC Scotland just becomes the Scottish Broadcasting Company, for example.

How much of it is down to Alex Salmonds ego trip of being the man to give Scotland Indepenence?

None of it. He was voted for, he got an absolute majority (unlike Cameron) so the Scottish people at least want the SNP in power, and it’s reasonable to assume the Scottish people know that the SNP wants independence.

Would the English government then keep all ship building in England?

Possibly – but BAE are a multinational and will build ships where they can be built – The Clyde is the best place for doing that.

Wasn’t something said about that though, that Britain had never contracted warships outside of the UK and wasn’t about to start?

Possibly – but BAE are a multinational and will build ships where they can be built – The Clyde is the best place for doing that.

And who is the biggest customer of BAE warships?

And what has that customer said about this matter?

And what has that customer said about this matter?

They’ve said it’s a commercial decision, not in the slightest bit political 😆

The UK buys US-made aircraft, South African explosives, equipment from all over – they’ll also buy ships from whoever can make them.

I love the way most of the Roman stuff on here is based on a tiny bit of historical fact and a huge amount of tendentious supposition.

No politics involved http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-mod-sinks-white-paper-plan-1-3213030

Defence Minister said that shipbuilding could be moved to Portsmouth and that this would require substantial investment in Portsmouth. He didnt make any guarantees.

Look don’t get me wrong. I am voting yes after all.

But don’t go into this thing thinking everything will be just peachy. It won’t.

piemonster – Member

No politics involved http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-mod-sinks-white-paper-plan-1-3213030

Looks like politics to me.

I have no illusions that the defence industry in Scotland will get gutted post independence, and tbh it’s one of the most logical pro union arguments I’ve heard, but it still doesn’t sway me, mostly due to my thoughts on the UK defence industry, I’m heavily biased against it.

It’s going to be one of the biggest challenges any new Scottish government will face, ie seeing these workers right. I would completely understand their reasons for voting no.

Indeed piemonster. I suspect there are 2 reasons that the defence minister wasnt more explicit.
1 A political reason,outside of Scotland the coalition dont want to be seen offering such a hefty bribe to Scottish workers and to guarantee the work to portsmouth in the event of a yes vote would seem like just that. In Scotland the same thing would be seen as an attempt to threaten or bully us.
2 The cost of investing in Portsmouth and inevitable delay in completion of the ships would be a factor.

2 The cost of investing in Portsmouth and inevitable delay in completion of the ships would be a factor.

For sure, but bringing shipbuilding of the Royal Navy home to England after Scottish Independence is surely political gold dust that’d bring the sort of decision making into play that says to hell with the cost.

BAE and politicians go hand in hand together all to often.

Yes but for the coalition to announce that now would simultaneously be a big blow to the Scottish economy and a political disaster for bitter together
Edit added in “Scottish”

I love the way most of the Roman stuff on here is based on a tiny bit of historical fact and a huge amount of tendentious supposition.

So it was perfectly OT then 😉

bitter together

So much better if we swapped Bitter for Ale.

Keep hearing this bitter together tag, yet its the yes supporters who say the no’s are the negative ones!

Born in Scotland (of Scottish ancestry) and lived here all my life.

Due to the glorious administrations fine upstanding treatment regards Trumpton Towers herebys, Wee Eck can go take a flying **** at the moon.

The writing is on the wall plain as day for all to see. Money talks and he’ll bend over for any futret heeded neep who flashes a fat wallet. Best check in on yer grannie just in case.

Who ever you vote for a politician always gets in. Tossers the lot of them!

metalheart – Member
Born in Scotland (of Scottish ancestry) and lived here all my life.

Due to the glorious administrations fine upstanding treatment regards Trumpton Towers herebys, Wee Eck can go take a flying **** at the moon…

Do you really think the SNP will survive more than one election after independence?

I expect it to fly apart into its various political parts.

It’s not the SNP we’re voting for in the referendum, it’s an opportunity to have a political system where the focus is on Scottish matters and not having them as an afterthought in Westminster.

It’s not the SNP we’re voting for in the referendum, it’s an opportunity to have a political system where the focus is on Scottish matters and not having them as an afterthought in Westminster.

Yes it is………………..
Would you buy a used car or bike from Wee Eck? Just remember he is a failed UK MP before he set his sights on his current fantasy. Ask yourselves if he has got enough people to back up his “promises/dreams/bribes” etc…. The flagship education policy has failed, Edinburgh trams have become a disaster, the Borders railway will go the same way, roads are degenerating into cart tracks due to his mismanagement and the Forth crossing prject. there is a whole lot more he is presiding over that the issues of the EU, the £ and oil are only a distraction………Typical politician
He has set up Nic as his fall girl if it all goes t**s up…..
The rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer in a “fairer Scotland”

epicyclo – Member

Do you really think the SNP will survive more than one election after independence?

I expect it to fly apart into its various political parts.

I honestly don’t know, the interesting thing about the last few years is all the pro-SNP but not pro-independance voters, the party certainly has a life outwith separatism (a rough look at the numbers suggests the No-voting SNP voters could support a party of their own!)