Scotland Indyref 2

aracer – Member
athgray » I have a close friend from Holland. I know there is a fair bit of dissatisfaction there.
Wilders is leading the polls there, and says he’ll hold a referendum if he wins.

usually a coalition though according to wiki, so not necessarily in his hands?

Dear old Nicola still can’t answer basic questions on Marr re the basics of an independent Scotland – groundhog day!!!

Dear old Nicola still can’t answer basic questions on Marr re the basics of an independent Scotland – groundhog day!!!

Didn’t do Boris any harm.

True

#posttruthpolitics

Was there ever a #truthpolitics?

There was a time that suspension of disbelief worked. Not anymore.

teamhurtmore – Member
Dear old Nicola still can’t answer basic questions on Marr re the basics of an independent Scotland – groundhog day!!!

So what?

It’s not as if it’s going to much different from the challenges made by other former colonies when they got independence, and none of them have come crawling back.

There’s plenty of resources to meet whatever challenges that do pop up, the most important being people.

Out of everyone involved it is only Nicola Sturgeon that seems to be actually doing anything about this, unless you include quitting or hiding or blaming someone else.

Can’t embed it for some reason.

https://youtu.be/HNe-yHr7uJc

teamhurtmore – Member
Dear old Nicola still can’t answer basic questions on Marr re the basics of an independent Scotland – groundhog day!!!

Sounding awful smug again old chap. Particularly when your entire defense in the stability of the uk has justt been proven as utter bullshit. You also missed out the self harm tendencies…Anybody else think thm needs a rename?

I think the deceitful one has a nice ring to it… 😉

Let’s hear your argument for remaining in the uk? We’re listening…..

@YoKaiser: Change the https to http:

I should be surprised that we haven’t heard anything from the Prime Minister since his resignation speech, nor anything from the Chancellor since the result. I should also be surprised that we have had so much back tracking from Vote Leave and little else in way of ideas or leadership. Also I should be surprised that the BBC seem to have teamed up with the Blairites and have made the news all about the demise of the Labour Party.

WTF is going on?

Btw regarding the cards falling, listening to some reactions of europeans on the news, the theme seems to be that the uk has just made itself the guinea pig, so they are all watching with interest. but that’ll be over a much longer period, they’ll want to see where the uk is in 10 years time. So I’d like to amend my previous thought on it happening quickly, I doubt it will. There will be no queue to join, imo. Least not for a decade.

The thing also it there’s not a fixed queue for EU membership – we don’t join the list behind Turkey or whatever. Scotland is already in the EU, we already meet the criteria – so really it’s more a matter of semantics whether we take over the UK’s membership or are fast-tracked into a new membership.

Fundamentally, if Scotland came to the EU fresh, would they refuse us membership? Of course not.

Fundamentally, if Scotland came to the EU fresh, would they refuse us membership? Of course not.

Well, maybe not if you ignore the various separatist movements around Europe – the Catalans, Basques and Gallicians in Spain are the ones I’m most familiar with, but the French also have their share and I’m other countries too.

Maybe Scotland on its own would be welcomed, but national governments will also weigh up “pour encoureger les autres” when deciding whether to admit or veto another country’s entry.

turning up fresh would be more of an issue than staying imo. we need to sort it out before england and wales leave. Our goal is not to leave at all. Whether that is as part of the uk or independent is a matter of the opinion of others.

The majority would obviously prefer uk + eu, how knows where that is possible.

Though you would imagine, england and wales leaving and scotland wanting to stay isn’t really a scenario that looks likely in other countries, ie spain, so that precedent has also fundamentally changed.

Spain isn’t a problem:

An argument as rank and rotten as a two year old fish

Spain isn’t a problem

That’s a lovely opinion piece which completely ignores just how much the central parties hate the Catalans, and makes a frankly pathetic argument that Spanish fishing quotas in one small province would make a huge difference to national politics.

Serious question for any pro Indy Scots. If your pro leaving the UK for greater local control etc (which by the way I can understand, if not agree with) then why do you want to then join the EU and give control back to Brussels? I’d understand going fully Indy but struggle with the next bit.

Like I said, honest question just interested in the feeling up there.

I don’t view the EU as having control. There are universal laws in the EU etc, I’m all for that. There’s plenty of control at a national level to run our own affairs.

Fair enough. So if the option was to leave the UK and join the EU but have to accept the Euro, land boarder etc etc would that be preferable to remaining in the UK which is either out of Europe or has sort of “associate” membership? Be interesting to hear what the pro Indy voters would accept in return for membership if given a stark choice from Brussels?

You’re getting it a bit backwards here though, it’s now up to the UK to put a case forward.

The immigration hysteria is not a good look.

Independent suggesting a “reverse Greenland” as s possibility.

It all gets a little complex, but effectively UK remains intact, E&W get to leave EU, but S&NI get to remain in EU.

Apparently the Greenland & Denmark situation is similar to that.

mogrim – Member
…Maybe Scotland on its own would be welcomed, but national governments will also weigh up “pour encoureger les autres” when deciding whether to admit or veto another country’s entry.

Another way of looking at it. An entire country has strongly voted to preserve the EU citizenship of its people.

Are the EU going to stand by and allow 5 million EU citizens of that country to lose that citizenship against their will?

Scotland is in a union by treaty with England which has decided to leave the EU. Scotland is not a possession or territory of England, and is prepared to sever the treaty of union with England to preserve the EU citizenship.

Seems contrary to EU ideals.

Looks like some in Germany support Scotland

bencooper – Member

Scotland is already in the EU

Only as part of the UK, you are not a member state.

we already meet the criteria

Do you?
Because there are a lot of criteria to fulfil, and as yet Scotland has not proved this, only the UK as a whole has. You are also financially much worse off than you were at the time of the indyref.

Fundamentally, if Scotland came to the EU fresh, would they refuse us membership? Of course not.

You simply don’t know. They might only accept your membership if you joined the Euro. You know, that thing that has failed catastrophically.

All this was explained to you before the Scottish referendum, and nothing has changed since.

Hopefully the whole of the UK can move forward and build a new relationship with the EU that doesn’t incite the underlying fears and racism that the Brexit campaign just has.

Hopefully.

Seems contrary to EU ideals.

And Scotland remaining a member is contrary to the law of EU treaties.
You’re making the same mistakes as Mr Cooper; confusing Scotland, England and the whole of the UK.

Thm;tick…Zulu11;tick…Just need Jambalaya for “house” on a Scottish Indy thread bingo. Don’t you have bigger fish to fry just now gentlemen?

You simply don’t know. They might only accept your membership if you joined the Euro. You know, that thing that has failed catastrophically.

Agree to take the Euro hasn’t stopped other countries from not adopting it. It gets brought up time and time again but if Scotland didn’t want it there’s plenty of way to not take it.

From the Wee Blue book.

I always laugh at claims the euro has failed. No it hasn’t it an pretty stable currency, has been since it’s inception.

Some eurozone countries have failed and aren’t doing very well.

This chap[/url] has very good commentary (and economic facts) about indyref and brexit.

I agree with him that basically the economic argument for indy scotland never stood up even with oil, and is even weaker now (to make up for uk £9Bn annual contribution to scotland choose something like 14% tax increases, or 14% cuts in services .. austerity to an extent never seen outside Greece. Good luck selling that).

Theres no accounting for people voting against their own interests (see EU ref result) but hopefully people will have learned that emotional and protest votes can have real consequences.

Sometimes when “the experts” say we should be afraid, they’re right.

Sturgeon/SNP clearly know this, based on the effort expended in preserving the barnett formula during post indyref discussions.

Their pragmatic but hypocritical unwillingness to live on only Scotlands own earnings shows that she knows the economic argument is weak, and she might lose.

I voted no to indy and no to leaving the EU, and even I had an initial “well FU then” reaction to the EU result, but looking at the facts (blessed blessed facts, oh how we’ve missed you!) says no independence for Scotland.

All of which of course doesn’t mean we won’t have the pleasure of another “joyous” festival of divisive nationalist flagwaving democracy.

Woop!

I agree with him that basically the economic argument for indy scotland never stood up even with oil, and is even weaker now (to make up for uk £9Bn annual contribution to scotland choose something like 14% tax increases, or 14% cuts in services .. austerity to an extent never seen outside Greece. Good luck selling that).

Serious question – What would the numbers be for the UK to break even?, cos I’m pretty sure it would make similar reading.

The 9bn transfer is essentially Scotlands share of the deficit. take away London in England every English region(we’re now calling Wales an English region) is just as bad as Scotland, in most cases they are worse.

Now given that the UK has just voted to hamstring London and create a European competitor that is likely to seriously curtail London. Who’s going to pay the UK deficit?

May well be in Scotlands interests to remain in the EU and promote the growth of the financial centres in Glasgow and Edinburgh to become competitors to London.

Tbh these are arguments for the future, I personally think talk of an Indy ref is a bit premature, and arguments regarding the financial case for and against, for the moment are all fairly speculative.

Going at all this with a slowly slowly approach is the correct way, and seeing if there’s a way to keep both the EU and the UK firstly. As that is the clear democratic will of Scotland.

If that can’t happen, we need to vote on it.

The basic point is that in Indyref1 the choice was between the status quo and a risk with independence. Now the choice is a risk on both sides – though if the Scotland/EU negotiations become clearer, then it may well turn into a choice between the status quo of being in the EU, and a risk leaving with the rest of the UK.

Top tip Mr Cooper: avoid using texts that write in slang if you want to be taken seriously.

nobeerinthefridge,
“Serious question – What would the numbers be for the UK to break even?, cos I’m pretty sure it would make similar reading.”

Thats not the case.
From Chokkablog above

The GERS figures show that Scotland’s total net fiscal deficit in 2014-15 was £14.9bn or 9.7% of GDP. Scotland’s deficit/GDP was bigger than any EU country in 2014. Only Greece and Ireland (at the peak of the financial crash) and more recently Slovenia have shown worse deficits over the last 14 years. In 2014-15 the UK as a whole ran a deficit of 4.9%; on a comparable basis Scotland’s deficit was twice as bad.

Wisdom from Shetland: 🙂

The solution to this constitutional clusterbuckle seems straightforward.
If England wishes to leave the EU, but the Scottish Parliament will not give its consent, then all England has to do is secede from the United Kingdom. No referendum is required: using English votes for English laws, Westminster just revokes the 1707 Act of Union. Simples!
Jonathan Wills
(Independent councillor for Lerwick South ward)
Sundside, Bressay

Everyone can be happy.

^^^ Hehe 🙂