Scotland Indyref 2

Do you really think that voting on an actual Bill is where the influence (of any MP) happens?

But I’ll just lazily post a quote from that Wiki article that Brucewee posted:

During the 2000s a number of pieces of legislation which affected only or mainly England were passed by the UK Parliament, although the votes cast by MPs were such that the legislation would not have been passed if only the votes cast by MPs representing English constituencies had been counted.[2]

its about Scotland wanting to seek its own way ion the world on a path that is blocked by westminster. A path of progressive policies, a path of engaging with the outside world in a spirit of cooperation including with england. An outward and forward looking vision. Its about self determination

Very much this for me too. I would have to accept that there is an element of the pro-independence vote that is anti-English though and I don’t feel happy being on the same side of the argument as those people. But that’s democracy for you I guess.

Ultimately I think it comes down to whether you think the people of Scotland would choose a different path to the rest of the UK. I happen to think they would. I also think that in doing so they would provide an example to the rest of the UK of the benefits of going down that path, which could result in what I would see as positive change for the rest of the UK too. But that’s all speculation at this stage.

Good one Twodogs. I had forgotton that.

of course that is Scots labour MPs obby fodder voting with the Westminster labour government when there was a rebellion in the HOC so its not what I was thinking of when a westminster government proposed something and the scots were able to stop it or When Scots MPs wanted something and Westminster refused but it fits the criteria

Apart from creating the third largest party?

By your logic if we should allow any region of the UK that doesn’t have influence over Westminster to secede, right? How about Devon and Cornwall?

Molgrips I’ll take this in two parts .Since becoming the 3rd largest party, the mps of that party are frequently jeered at, humiliated, and ignored. I cannot think of one SNP bill which has gotten through in westminster in that period.
Secondly the government of Scotland in particular but of all the UK is much too centralised it is damaging the relationship between the centre of government in south east England and the other areas so why should’nt Devon and Cornwall secede or claim an element of self governance.

Secondly the government of Scotland in particular but of all the UK is much too centralised it is damaging the relationship between the centre of government in south east England and the other areas so why should’nt Devon and Cornwall secede or claim an element of self governance.

No arguments there. The devolution settlement for Scotland and Wales has brought up this very question across the UK and I think it will progress slowly over the years if independence doesn’t happen.

Re Scottish influence – with that many SNP MPs it’s not hard to see how they could hold the balance of power in a parliament. Or even if they weren’t all SNP, the total number of Scottish seats is significant.

Twodogs

thats the sort of thing I love this forum for. One cannot get away with sloppy language, thinking or writing.

to refine the point I was trying to make – ask it as “When in the last 20 years have Scot as MPs been able to change UK government policy?”

thats the sort of thing I love this forum for. One cannot get away with sloppy language, thinking or writing.

I’m a bit confused about which one of my huge number of brilliant and insightful posts you mean now 😂

The one where you skewered me on the west lothian question 🙂

I could feel the burn

During the 2000s a number of pieces of legislation which affected only or mainly England were passed by the UK Parliament, although the votes cast by MPs were such that the legislation would not have been passed if only the votes cast by MPs representing English constituencies had been counted.[2]

Is the “mainly” there because England has the largest (by far) population so ANY legislation impacting all the UK would impact England “mainly”?

Also, how many of the votes were due to 3-line whips and/or cabinet MP’s voting with the Govt?

Dunno….how many?

The one where you skewered me on the west lothian question 🙂

I could feel the burn

😂

What are you basing that on? My understanding is the majority of young voters are Yes voters.

Recent polls.

You sound very certain. Again, what are you basing that on?

The TJ method. You missed the joke.

@molgrips I’m certain that Scottish Labour, Scottish Libdems and Scottish Tories have an agreement not to vote with the SNP under any circustances. Not sure if it applies to their UK counterparts

Re Scottish influence – with that many SNP MPs it’s not hard to see how they could hold the balance of power in a parliament. Or even if they weren’t all SNP, the total number of Scottish seats is significant.

Labour don’t like to side with the SNP?

Wee woman in work was telling me how much she regrets her No vote in 2014, after the last 8 years + yesterday’s ruling.

Recent polls.

links?

The TJ method. You missed the joke.

I did miss the joke. In fact, I’m still missing it completely.

Labour don’t like to side with the SNP?

Labour Libdem and Tory work with varying degrees of informal alliance in Scotland particularly in local politics

Labour don’t like to side with the SNP?

Labour in Scotland have a deep-seated antipathy towards the SNP, and seem to either have no idea how repellent this is to left-leaning voters like myself, or are so consumed by their hatred that they don’t care. It’s been that way for years, and is both incoherent and toxic, leading to them actively encouraging voters to support Tory candidates to try and prevent SNP candidates winning. It’s what helped Theresa May back into power by a narrow margin – that suddenly uptick in Tory MPs from Scotland was enabled by Labour’s encouragement.
It’s why I stopped supporting Labour over a decade ago.

Labour in Scotland have a deep-seated antipathy towards the SNP, and seem to either have no idea how repellent this is to left-leaning voters like myself, or are so consumed by their hatred that they don’t care. It’s been that way for years, and is both incoherent and toxic, leading to them actively encouraging voters to support Tory candidates to try and prevent SNP candidates winning. It’s what helped Theresa May back into power by a narrow margin – that suddenly uptick in Tory MPs from Scotland was enabled by Labour’s encouragement.
It’s why I stopped supporting Labour over a decade ago.

While I live here, Central-belt ‘politics’ are a bit lost on me, are Labour after the ‘Rangers’ cohort as their Scottish ‘Red Wall’ equivalent?

And agree, I voted Labour all my life in England, but I’ve supported the SNP for the +10 years I’ve been in Scotland.

“When in the last 20 years have Scot as MPs been able to change UK government policy?”

@tjagain – I know many people think Gordon Brown wasn’t the greatest prime minister this country has seen, but I think it would be going some to suggest that he, or any of the Labout MPs in the Brown/Blair years had no significant influence on UK gov policy.  Presumably during the coalition years the Lib Dem scots continued to have a strong influence, and tory scots will have done since (especially in periods with tight majorities).

Even from the opposition benches the SNP must have had some success in influencing policy – for otherwise surely the 2014 referendum would never have happened, and certainly “the Vow” would not have come about without it, which whilst mostly a load of nonsense did result in some small refinements to the Scotland Act.

I support the concept of Scotland finding its own way in the world – but we need to be careful if we say we do not have any democratic voice.  Clearly we do.  Everyone in the UK should be concerned that democracy doesn’t work for them.   Its wrong to suggest that even a back bench MP in an opposition party has no ability to change government policy – that’s not the same as many policies they don’t like getting voted through anyway.

Do you really think Brown was looking after Scotland or making policy to suit England. He as chancellor and POM saddled us with absurd policy that no one north of the border wanted. See ERI for a prime example

Edit: – OK I’ll accept my point was hyperbolic and as above it should have been ” Scots MPs have no influence to vote down UK government policy”

Labour don’t like to side with the SNP?

In Scotland we have had the labour / tory non aggression pact that resulted in the tories gaining 10 seats at westminster that resulted in May being able to save her administration and resulted in Brexit.

We have labour doing deals with the tories on local councils to freeze out the SNP to the point labour kicked two councilors out of the party for refusing to do a deal with the Tories to freeze out the SNP

WE have the absurd spectacle of labour voting aginst the SNP i holyrood when what the SNP were proposing was the same as london labour policy – see “the bain principle

links?

I’ll see what I can find but I picked it up from news snippets last night.

Looks like I either misheard or they were selective in their reporting.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2022/06/14/where-do-scots-stand-independence-2022

My apologies

I did miss the joke. In fact, I’m still missing it completely.

It’s a paraphrase if it’ll take decades for the UK to get back into the EU but Scotland wouldn’t take long at all.

It’s a paraphrase if it’ll take decades for the UK to get back into the EU but Scotland wouldn’t take long at all.

Because of political will. thats the differnce. Scottish government wants to return. EU want us back.

UK government does not want to return nor does the UK opposition.

UK government does not want to return nor does the UK opposition.

The current Government doesn’t no, opposition can’t make their minds up. Regardless the claims of decades are never happening aren’t exactly certain.

Oh and while you’re. Didn’t you once renounce your English on here and claim you recognise as Scottish?

Of course its not certain – its an opinion

How can I renounce my ancestry? I have never tried to. Scotland is my home but I am English born of English descent with an English name and accent

Of course its not certain – its an opinion

Exactly. It holds no ground.

No, I thought you said you see yourself as Scottish now not English. My mistake. Anyway I think you’re anti-English government, not anti-English. But it’s a Tory government so I’m cool with that.

Its all rather complicated and nuanced Drac so I get your confusion. Identity on this archipelago often is

When pushed I describe myself as “British of English birth and descent but Scotland is my home”. That makes me “one of the people of Scotland” because its my home but I can never be “scottish” the ethnic group. I feel no allegiance to England at all now and IMO that is not because I have left England but because England has left me. England now is a very different place from when I last lived there 35 years ago and a much less nice place.

I visited my roots and the nearest I have to somewhere my family comes from when I was on my big bike ride – a small village in Shropshire.

I know many folk of many nationalities who are a part of the “People of Scotland” English, danish, polish,dutch and greek

No I get that.

In similar stance. I moved away from my home town over 27 years ago. I no longer recognise the town, it’s full Tory town and lot of people who moved into are a bit above themselves.

Can’t change where I’m from and I wouldn’t anyway. The town I live in now is very much my home and so much like my birth town was.

I can’t say that the Scottish government are swaying me towards independence at the moment with their stance on public sector pay deals. Kinda feel like it’s ‘come meet the new boss, same as the old boss’. The purported idea of some social nirvana under a scottish government is looking rather shaky imho.

Thats back to the problem of being unable to raise money. Tax raising powers are very limited and austerity from Westminster means less money to Scotland as well

Public sector pay is a huge part of the Scottish government budget so if they give better pay deals then that extra money has to be cut from other budgets

As a nurse I was paid slightly better in Scotland than in England because they had given slightly higher pay deals than in England

So while the tories say “there is no more money” and its bogus because they can raise more money by taxation or borrowing the scottish government actually means it as they have no way of raising significantly more money. Tax raising powers are very limited and deliberately designed to be a poisoned chalice / not to be able to be used in the way the scottish government would like

That is actually a good arguement for independence as post independence the scottish government would be able to raise more money in the way independent countries can. Whether they would is a differnt issue.

And yet when it comes to tone, you can feel the SNP’s passion for independence. They do all they can to force Westminster’s hand. Pay and conditions for the public sector and there’s nothing they can do and they don’t look overly concerned about it.

If the SNP want to fund higher pay deals they can raise income tax. But it won’t be popular.

As for not being able to borrow.On balance good. Passing the problem on to the next generation isn’t the answer.

NOt true IME. As I said a few years ago the nurses pay body recommended IIRC 3%. Tories said no and gave 1% to English nurses. In Scotland we got our 3%. I was paid a few hundred more than an english nurse

Also in Scotland if you earn bellow the national average you pay slightly less tax. Above the national average you pay slightly more

Numerous examples of this sort of thing over the years

If the SNP want to fund higher pay deals they can raise income tax. But it won’t be popular.

Very limited powers to do so and they have used the powers. Its been quite popular. One holyrood election was faught on this. SNP vote went up on a tax raising manifesto

Holyrood does not have the power to raise income tax by enough to fund a decent pay rise.

I was born in Scotland and have lived and worked in Scotland most of my adult life.

However, I – like others – are challenged by – presumably ultra – nationalists who, at every turn, seek to create division, demonise others ‘The English’, accuse those of us who are happy being part of the UK as “Not a real Scot” or “A traitor”. Additionally a FM who claims to talk on behalf of all Scots – when she patently does not.

This given current and recent events related to division completely turns me off.

However, I also acknowledge the challenges the UK has as a whole – a political system which requires reform, recent blatant lies, corruption, etc.

Surely recognition of the fundamental issues facing the country and trying to build positive alliances to deal with those is hugely more positive than yet more division.

Plus the current UK and Scottish governments really need to show me a real path to stability, meaningful employment and as much prosperity as it is possible for as many as possible.

Taxpayers in Scotland earning less than £30k pay £21.62 less tax than an English taxpayer.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/changes-scottish-income-tax-2022-2023-factsheet/

Woohoo! Let’s complicate the tax system with an additional band so we can boast many Scottish taxpayers pay less. True £21.62 less.

Playing political games with the tax system.

Additionally a FM who claims to talk on behalf of all Scots – when she patently does not.

Is that any different from what the UK prime minster does?

Bams everywhere for sure and we have our share but you do realise that actually the unionist parties talk about the SNP talking about independence far more than the SNP does? In the runnup to the last holyrood election independence was talked about by unionist parties far more than the SNP. there was some sad person went thru every speech and the other parties individually talked about independence many more times.

IRC – thats the limitations of the scots tax raising powers and its not an additional band / complication or cost.

TJ,

Interesting that you should defend the FM by pointing towards the PM. So, would you agree that the FM suffers from the same untruths as the PM? If so that is great as it suggests to me that you are more open minded than some who seem to believe that the FM does walk on water and can do no wrong and hence a reasoned discussion can be had.

I would sincerely appreciate your sense of what masterplan the SNP have in place to assure those they claim to represent will be no worse off or even better off than current? What sectors will assure meaningful employment for all who want it, with good income to allow meaningful tax income to support health, education, pensions, defence, etc, etc. Given the O&G industry appears to have fallen out of SNP favour in order to have an alliance with the greens? Seriously, what is the master plan to convince me that independence will be better? Thanks.