Scotland Indyref 2

Yes I am aware but one other thing is the number of young Scottish who can also now vote. It would seem most of those also want to remain.

What are you basing that on? My understanding is the majority of young voters are Yes voters.

Regardless it’s won’t happen quickly, it could take decades or not happen at all.

You sound very certain. Again, what are you basing that on?

Do you honestly think we should have left the EU based on a tiny percentage of swing voters who were probably too stupid to understand the issues or who’s vote would change from one day to the next, yet these people have impacted the state of our country for generations to come

True, but the fact is we’re no longer voting for the status quo vs a change. There is no status quo anymore thanks to brexit.

It’s a vote for one type of change vs another type of change.

I’d prefer if the No side didn’t provide any assurances or guarantees. They did last time and it was mostly lies to sway the vote. ‘A vote to leave the UK is a vote to leave the EU’. Oh, the hilarity.

Tbh honest I don’t fully understand how the ECB operates with member states, whether they have any freedom to set monetary policy (assume they do with fiscal policy).

EU states have no power to set their own monetary policy, it’s entirely controlled by the ECB (ask Greece or Italy how well that works for them). If Scotland left the UK and joined the EU, it would simply be switching which central bank controls its currency. The question I’d be asking if I had a vote would be whether Scotland has more or less influence over monetary policy as part of the UK or EU. I think the answer to that is obvious, given that one union has 2 members and the other 27.

The only way Scottish independence makes sense is if they have their own currency. Last time I looked the SNP were’t proposing that so independence would be a dead duck from day one.

I think the answer to that is obvious,

Indeed it is. As a part of the EU we would have some influence. As a part of the UK we have none. Scotlands underperformace economically is because UK financial policy is set for london and normally works against Scottish interests

Same as in the EU we would have some influence politically whereas now we have none

I think the answer to that is obvious, given that one union has 2 members and the other 27

And yet in one block Scotland would have a veto and in the other it doesn’t. You would think it would be the block with only 2 members but…

As has been shown with this judgement, there is no ‘block’ of two countries here. There is England.

There is England.

No, there’s the UK. We all get the same representation at Westminster. If an English issue were split 51/49 then Scottish votes in Westminster would sway it. So no, it’s not just England.

UK financial policy is set for london and normally works against Scottish interests

I don’t disagree but if you think Scotland would have more influence over the ECB I think you’re looking through EU-tinted specs. The ECB is as – if not more – intransigent as the BoE. They were prepared to drive an entire country into the sea and impoverished million in order to maintain their control over Greece. The only country who has real influence over the ECB is Germany.

We have no influence over the BoE. We would have a little over ECB

Molgrips – the point is that Scotland is completely ignored and has zero influence over Uk policy thus only Englands ( and NI if the unionists there are useful) have any influence. What England needs wants and votes for it gets. What scotland needs wants and votes for it does not. Your example talks about England

Thanks for the feedback folks. It’s actually good to hear that my perception is not shared by everyone.

I’m not arguing for a super majority. I just don’t see the point in fighting hard for another referendum unless there is a clear majority in favour of independence.

To be clear, as an Englishman who has lived here for over 25 years now, I’m in favour of independence. I voted Yes last time too, but my gut feeling is that pushing for a vote now would be counter-productive as I can’t see anything to convince me that it would actually be won by the Yes side. If we got to the point where polls showed a consistent and significant majority for independence then I think things would be very different. Obviously 60% is an arbitrary number, but 51/49 just suggests a very divisive campaign and when people are suffering already I think it would be very hard to convince a majority to vote for more chaos (which is how it would be portrayed). Happy to be proved wrong though.

I think you are right. Sturgeon herself said the same years ago

the problem is that there is a strong tendency within the SNP and the wider independence movement that think she is delaying ( for reasons that simply do not add up IMO) and thus she cannot wait any longer or the party will split, she will be out on her ear and the chance is gone

also the longer we are under brexit the harder rejoining the EU is

I think most of us would be much happier if it were clear cut

One thing to remember tho is in the last campaign when people actually got to hear the arguement yes went from 30% to 45%. I would expect the next campaign to show a similar rise in the yes vote.

What England needs wants and votes for it gets

Does it bollocks. BITS of England do. BITS of the UK do.

Please stop lumping millions of people together like this. It’s awful to read, it’s actually making me feel sick to my stomach tbh.

We have no influence over the BoE.

Technically you have more influence over govt and economic policy as part of the UK than you would in the EU. You may not think that, but that’s just your anti-english opinion talking. As I have said many times before, Scotland leaving the UK makes as little, or realistically a lot less sense than the UK leaving the EU. All the arguments for and against brexit apply to Scottish Independence. I get why lots of scots want to leave, just as I understood why lots of English wanted to leave the EU, but it would be a daft thing to do, especially given what we now know about brexit.

I don’t disagree but if you think Scotland would have more influence over the ECB I think you’re looking through EU-tinted specs. The ECB is as – if not more – intransigent as the BoE. They were prepared to drive an entire country into the sea and impoverished million in order to maintain their control over Greece. The only country who has real influence over the ECB is Germany.

There’s lots of ways you can either join the EU and not adopt the Euro (Sweden, for example) or build closer ties without becoming a full member (EFTA, for example).

imo, the best bet for Scotland would be it’s own currency and EFTA membership initially and then see where to go from there but it’s an incredibly complex question that doesn’t really suit single line answers.

I do wish yo would listen and try to understand what it looks like from north of the border

i get your point. Its sloppy shorthand but Scotland has zero influence over UK policy.

Technically you have more influence over govt and economic policy as part of the UK than you would in the EU.

Simply incorrect. In the EU we would get to be represented . In the UK our representatives are ignored and sidelined

your anti-english opinion talking

I am not anti english in anyway. Im effing english by birth.

Once again someone who has no understanding is lecturing us on what we have and getting it wrong

give one example of Scotland having any influence over Westminster policy. Just one example

It’s awful to read, it’s actually making me feel sick to my stomach tbh.

That’s how I feel whenever you say Scotland is the equivalent of just another English region.

Technically you have more influence over govt and economic policy as part of the UK than you would in the EU.

Cool, we have a veto over UK policy.

You may not think that, but that’s just your anti-english opinion talking.

I think that’s just your anti-EU opinion talking.

but that’s just your anti-english opinion talking

He’s English isn’t he? And that’s Tosh anyway. The UK government has chosen to ignore the requests of the Scottish government, and at times avoided even meeting with them. It is the UK government that sets the parameters that the BofE work within, it currently has nothing to do with the Scottish government. How people in Scotland vote now has no effect on UK policy because that’s what the UK government has decided. So we South of the border can chose a government that ignores the votes and needs of Scotland. They can’t do the same to us. There is the power imbalance, and it’s enshrined in UK law, further clarified this week.

I think you are right. Sturgeon herself said the same years ago

Thanks. I though she had too, but couldn’t quickly find the quote.

One thing to remember tho is in the last campaign when people actually got to hear the arguement yes went from 30% to 45%. I would expect the next campaign to show a similar rise in the yes vote.

Yes, you are right and that is a powerful counter-argument.

It does feel different (to me at least) now though, which is where I started from. In 2014 I think we felt a bit more comfortable and people were willing to risk a bit of short term pain for longer term gain. Now it feels as though a lot more people are suffering and realising just what “short term pain” actually means and it will be harder to get them to vote for more of it.

That’s how I feel whenever you say Scotland is the equivalent of just another English region.

Why?

It’s the generalisation of the English as somehow one homogenous group that has some kind of great democratic privilege that I really object to. Scotland is very much a country, but it’s not a separate country. Clearly not historically or culturally the same as an English region, but it is a part of the UK.

So we South of the border can chose a government that ignores the votes and needs of Scotland. They can’t do the same to us. There is the power imbalance, and it’s enshrined in UK law, further clarified this week.

Again this comes back to how important you think that line on the map is. Why is there a ‘people of Scotland’ and a ‘people of England’ but not a ‘people of the UK?’ Because we live in the UK the political system is a UK one. That’s not really avoidable is it?

This all goes back to nationalism. For you, it’s ‘us vs them’. For me, it’s ‘us’.

give one example of Scotland having any influence over Westminster policy. Just one example

Devolution?

And how does devolution influence UK policy?

I am not anti english in anyway. Im effing english by birth.

Lazy language. What I should have said was ‘anti-UK govt’ opinion. 🙂

give one example of Scotland having any influence over Westminster policy.

Apart from having a bunch of Scottish PMs?

Apart from creating the third largest party?

By your logic if we should allow any region of the UK that doesn’t have influence over Westminster to secede, right? How about Devon and Cornwall?

It’s the generalisation of the English as somehow one homogenous group that has some kind of great democratic privilege that I really object to.

Why?

When someone says ‘Scotland voted No in 2014’ I understand that it’s a shorthand to say the majority of people voted No. I don’t get upset because the Yes voters aren’t being singled out and identified as not being the same as the No voters.

It’s the same no matter what decision is being taken. You say, ‘The US elected Donald Trump’ and everyone understands that not every American (or even the majority of Americans) voted for Trump.

Honestly, it’s a shorthand that’s so universally accepted it’s very difficult for me to remember that you personally get upset by it and make allowances.

This all goes back to nationalism. For you, it’s ‘us vs them’. For me, it’s ‘us’.

For me, ‘us’ is Europe. For you, it’s Britain.

This all goes back to nationalism. For you, it’s ‘us vs them’. For me, it’s ‘us’.

Now explain how your choice of “us” isn’t nationalism?

I don’t want the UK to break up. Current attitudes towards Scotland, and not just from our politicians, isn’t about working towards making the UK work with Scotland remaining part of it… it is about relying on dominance of the UK by England to keep Scotland within it. That can only end one way if it carries on in my opinion, and that’s a break up… a break up I don’t want.

Now it feels as though a lot more people are suffering and realising just what “short term pain” actually means and it will be harder to get them to vote for more of it.

I can see that reasoning… that it would make many reject or want to delay a choice as regard independence. I feel it could cause the exact opposite… a lot of this pain has been the choice of the UK government, when the Scottish government proposed compromises to limit/reduce the pain while still honouring a choice made by the UK that wasn’t the choice of voters North of the border. No compromise. No listening. No consideration. Scotland told to shut up and take it.

This all goes back to nationalism. For you, it’s ‘us vs them’. For me, it’s ‘us’.

This statement encapsulates your lack of understanding of how scots nationalism works

its not “anti” anything

its not them V us

Its about us indeed – us being the people of scotland.

its about Scotland wanting to seek its own way ion the world on a path that is blocked by westminster. A path of progressive policies, a path of engaging with the outside world in a spirit of cooperation including with england. An outward and forward looking vision. Its about self determination

And how does devolution influence UK policy?

You asked for an example of Scotland influencing Westminster policy…Westminster had a policy to devolve some power to Scotland, Wales and NI…..I would imagine that this policy was heavily influenced by Scotland…..or are you saying the Scottish Parliament was foisted on you against Scotland’s wishes?

give one example of Scotland having any influence over Westminster policy. Just one example

What short memories we have. It wasn’t long ago that we were obsessed with the ‘West Lothian Question’. Many of those issues still exist today but for some reason it’s not a problem.

It’s awful to read, it’s actually making me feel sick to my stomach tbh.

Excellent – now you can empathise with how millions of Scots felt when they were encouraged to vote to retain the Union on the basis of membership of the EU, the Vow, and greater devolution, only to get shafted at every turn, and now be told that we have no agency over our own future.

PS you keep referring to TJ’s ‘anti-English’ rhetoric – you do know he’s an Englishman living in Edinburgh?

By your logic if we should allow any region of the UK that doesn’t have influence over Westminster to secede, right? How about Devon and Cornwall?

And once again, we’re back to ‘Scotland is just the same as any other region in England.’

By your logic if we should allow any region of the UK that doesn’t have influence over Westminster to secede, right? How about Devon and Cornwall?

all they have to do is elect a majority of MPs for the west country national party ( there actually is a cornish independence movement) and show they want independence and then they should be able to have it. I see no issue with that and would be quite happy with it

Apart from having a bunch of Scottish PMs?

Apart from creating the third largest party?

Who are ignored and have zero influence. No power at all

last time I know of that Scots MPs actually had any influence in Westminster was when they voted down the labour government in the 70s

And once again, we’re back to ‘Scotland is just the same as any other region in England.’

Why are you denigrating the historic claim of the Cornish to have their own nation? 😉

What short memories we have. It wasn’t long ago that we were obsessed with the ‘West Lothian Question’. Many of those issues still exist today but for some reason it’s not a problem

This

Why are you denigrating the historic claim of the Cornish to have their own nation?

What’s Cornish independence polling at right now?

Dazh

And when did the west lothian question actually result in any influence?

Name one bill that was passed that only effects England that would not have passed without the vote of Scots MPs

I think you’re being deliberately obtuse now, TJ.

What short memories we have. It wasn’t long ago that we were obsessed with the ‘West Lothian Question’. Many of those issues still exist today but for some reason it’s not a problem

It was ‘solved’.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_votes_for_English_laws

However, it was found the solution was a pain in the arse and not worth it because, in reality, it’s a useful stick for English MPs to beat Scotland and NI (and very occasionally Wales) with but not a problem in the real world.

And the reason it’s not a problem in the real world is because the devolved nations have so little influence their decisions seldom affect the decisions of English MPs.

I am not. the “west lothian question” is a good one that needs an answer. However its purely theoretical

So I would like you to name a single bill where the west lothian question actually mattered

So that would be one bill that effects england only but only got passed because of the votes of scots MPs

Edit – must be post devolution as well