Scotland Indyref 2

epicyclo – Member

The opposition to Scottish independence is fundamentally racist.

stop talking balls.

epicyclo – Member

km79 nails it. The opposition to Scottish independence is fundamentally racist.

Around 50% of Scottish people must be pretty conflicted then….

stop talking balls.
[/quote]

Aha, time for us English folk to bow out of this thread and leave them to it?

epicyclo – Member

The opposition to Scottish independence is fundamentally racist.

Is it ****. There is definitely an element of xenophobia (as demonstrated in the last election campaign) but fundamentally? No. Racist? No. Gens una sumus. This is the last place we want to go.

aracer – Member
Aha, time for us English folk to bow out of this thread and leave them to it?

Don’t do that, if anything turns me against scottish independence it’ll be an epicyclo, chip on their shoulder, ultra nationalist takeover.

Thankfully that’s not the main driver of it, imo.

Epicyclo a “chip on their shoulder, ultra nationalist” You really do not understand do you. Epicyclo is simply believes that Scotland is a nation and should have self determination. His position is by no means extreme.

He did suggest that those against it were racist though, tj

I think it’s “The opposition to Scottish Independence is fundamentally racist” that we’re objecting to, not that Scotland is a nation.

tjagain – Member
Epicyclo a “chip on their shoulder, ultra nationalist” You really do not understand do you. Epicyclo is simply believes that Scotland is a nation and should have self determination. His position is by no means extreme.

I understand perfectly fine, I’ve read his views for 3 years on scottish independence, he’s exactly as I describe.

Point of order:
SIDEBAR
can you be an ultra- nationalist and not be racist?

Really can you ?
Genuine q as not been following the thread at all
all the ones i can think of are really rather racist

Surely we say nationalist to differentiate a nationalist from a racist and then ultra nationalist to indicate they have crossed a line

I also think its an unfair and inaccurate description of the person on here as well

Bruce – its a daft thing to say like that but there is certainly a strong tinge of racism underlying a lot of the nationalist sentiment we hear but to think Epicylo is some sort of raving loony ultra nationalist simply shows a lack of understanding of the whole Scottish political scene

*klaxon sounds*

TJ – step away from the political thread

*klaxon sounds*

TJ – step away from the political thread

tjagain – Member
but to think Epicylo is some sort of raving loony ultra nationalist simply shows a lack of understanding of the whole Scottish political scene

You could probably get a medal at the Olympics for that leap. 😆

Junkyard – lazarus
aracer » He did suggest that those against it were racist though, tj

Point of order:
SIDEBAR
can you be an ultra- nationalist and not be racist?
Really can you ?
Genuine q as not been following the thread at all
all the ones i can think of are really rather racist

Surely we say nationalist to differentiate a nationalist from a racist and then ultra nationalist to indicate they have crossed a line

I also think its an unfair and inaccurate description of the person on here as well

I’d refer to an ultranationalist as a blind nationalist. Whether racism is a crucial factor in that, I’d doubt, but it’s not uncommon.

In a scottish context I’d refer to an ultra nationalist as the flag waving, propaganda supping, highland clearance waffling, saor alba-ist.

If thats your definition then thats around 30% or so of the population of scotland that are ultra nationalists. I prefer to call them Ideological nationalists
*klaxon goes…………………..*

It really does bug me that epicyclo thinks he’s oppressed by a government he doesn’t want and has the right to one he does, whereas I have to put up with Tories because I’m not Scottish and I deserve Tories.

**** you, frankly. Just as much Tory opposition where I live and in other parts of the UK.

Well now you’re just arguing semantics!

tjagain – Member
If thats your definition then thats around 30% or so of the population of scotland that are ultra nationalists. I prefer to call them Ideological nationalists
*klaxon goes…………………..*

30% is way too high, but aye there is an element.

Still not clear about the concept of a country vs a region then? Let’s get it clear- if there was the same amount of opposition to the Tory across England as in Scotland then there wouldn’t be a Tory government.

Its his attitude* as much as anything else. As if sharing nationality (which I don’t anyway) means I deserve it. As if all English are Tories.

* and yours too apparently

@molgrips – personally I’m still not sure why it is more undemocratic Scotland not getting the government it votes for (some of the time) than it is for the people of Shetland and Orkney who haven’t got the government they voted for (at Westminster or Holyrood) since – well I can’t actually be bothered to check exactly, but I think since the last Liberal government.

Junkyard – lazarus

can you be an ultra- nationalist and not be racist?

I reckon so. Nationalism doesn’t have to have any racial tint at all. Like, my limited experience of non-french canadian nationalist zoomers is that they’re incredibly inclusive zoomers, as long as you get being canadian. You can come from the moon and as long as you understand what a 2 line pass is it’s all good. (no doubt there are awful canadian nationalists but that’s not the point, these dudes are the proof of concept)

For your scottish nutters, there’s definitely some that are outright racist and ime more that are xenophobic (and obviously a lot specifically anti-english) but there’s equally a lot of “scottishness is a frame of mind” sort of stuff. I reckon I see more of that than most with my work, academia is full of outward looking scottish nationalism, I wouldn’t assume it’s typical but it’s the sort I identify with and see most of day to day. There’s a limit to how racist the 75% of SNP voters who want to stay in Europe can be really. Maybe typify it as people who want their country to be better rather than people who believe it couldn’t possibly be better.

(one of the fiercest scottish nationalists I know is english, he moved here probably 20, 25 years ago and this is a quote, “Scotland is what would happen if England could learn from mistakes”. Another is a new zealander and I remember when he was one of my lecturers, the first thing he said was that he’d be going home to the big island real soon. 20 years ago… He married a norn irish protestant and now he’s scottish by adoption, or contagion possibly. But then he says scotland is just new zealand with worse weather and better career prospects.)

aracer – Member

@molgrips – personally I’m still not sure why it is more undemocratic Scotland not getting the government it votes for (some of the time) than it is for the people of Shetland and Orkney who haven’t got the government they voted for (at Westminster or Holyrood) since – well I can’t actually be bothered to check exactly, but I think since the last Liberal government.

The Scottish question isn’t about democracy, it’s about whether Scotland wants to go a different route all by itself, for good or bad, and whether it fundamentally disagrees with Westminster’s direction enough to break off and go with a smaller democratic grouping and decide it’s own fate..

Scotland within the uk isn’t undemocratic.

Still not clear about the concept of a country vs a region then? Let’s get it clear- if there was the same amount of opposition to the Tory across England as in Scotland then there wouldn’t be a Tory government.

Indeed and why its such an issue.

personally I’m still not sure why it is more undemocratic Scotland not getting the government it votes for (some of the time) than it is for the people of Shetland and Orkney who haven’t got the government they voted for (at Westminster or Holyrood) since – well I can’t actually be bothered to check exactly, but I think since the last Liberal government.

Deja vu are we going to r do every ref topic again?

At some point we have to decide at what point a geographical block is governed;country is the fairly standard yardstick by which we do this.
It seems to confuse non scots though for some reason

Appreciate the answers re ultra- nationalism

I dont go home often enough to know and its not something i discuss with relatives.

i guess it also depends on your definition of ultra-nationalist.

I understand the argument JY, but it seems to need reprising because some people don’t understand that irrespective of that there is nothing at all undemocratic about how Scotland is represented in governments. Of course if they become independent then the democracy will be different, but there will still be people unrepresented in the government which has to take decisions for the whole of the territory it rules.

It’s kind of a side point though – for me the fundamental issue is whether being ruled from Holyrood rather than Westminster will make a substantive difference (let alone a positive one) to people’s lives, or whether it’s just an ideological thing. I have to admit I’ve become even more cynical about democracy recently!

aracer – Member
have to admit I’ve become even more cynical about democracy recently!

I don’t you’re alone there, if there was an IS and they put me in charge, we’d become a dictatorship, tout suite! 😆

The issue of Sottish independence is an interesting one and there are plenty of things to discuss, but it should be much more than ‘piss of English Tory scum’ which is what it seems sometimes.

Leave democracy and political alignment out of it. As part of the UK you are represented the same as everyone else. Whether or not you want to be part of the UK is a different issue.

And I do think Sturgeon is using the Brexit vote to increase anti unionist sentiment for her own cause. Brexit has pushed all remainers away from government, and oh look what a happy coincidence…

So let’s make it clear. It’s nothing to do with faulty representation within the UK system. You live in a UK constituency and you get one Westminster MP, same as everyone else. Except not, because you have an MSP too.

🙂

@km I’m curious as to where you are thinking of going post Brexit, I say so a eurosceptism is strong and growing throughout Europe as is being reflected in increasingly right leaning election results esp in France, Austria, Holland and even in Germany (no benefits for EU citizens for 5 years).

The SNP are consumate opportunists as Indy Ref 2 provides a perfect distration from their failings in Government. The “lie” accusation is tried and tested (and well used by STWers too). The EU is a topical means to an end. All May has to do is hold firm for a few years and the impending EU financial implosion will wipe that argument away. Of course by that stage the SNP will have come up with something else

You don’t consider that remaining or leaving the EU is a substantive difference?

It’s a substantive difference politically – what difference will it make to your day to day life? And if you think it will make a negative difference, then will leaving the UK be positive or negative?

molgrips – Member
‘piss of English Tory scum’ which is what it seems sometimes

I’d disagree there, it’s view by a lot as an available out to get away from tory-ism. Rather than sticking 2 fingers up.

Which is only partly true, we’ll get away from tory dominance of politics, but scotland has a share of its own tories.

Exactly…

aracer – Member
then will leaving the UK be positive or negative?

Depends on who gets power, and the successive governments there after. It’s an impossible question to answer.

You can only really argue about what the starting point for an IS would be. And we can all agree that is a country with a large deficit and debt.

Otherwise, it’ll be down to “scottish” democracy and it’s people to make what they will of it and to decide whether it turns out better or worse. You’ll need a chrystal ball to know that. There will always be an element of faith involved there.

A good general answer, but I was trying to compare it with UK leaving the EU. I think most of us here see that as being distinctly negative – it seems easy to draw parallels with Scotland leaving the UK, which would have similar effects on both economies. Just trying to generate a new argument here rather than reprising all the old ones – of course we don’t know what would happen in the future, but the starting point would not only be a country with a large deficit and debt, but one with trade barriers between it and it’s majority trading partner.

The thing is though, to come back to the point I was trying to make, the most significant difference constitutional change makes to the life of an ordinary person is to the performance of the economy which directly relates to the amount of money in your pocket. Other than that what real difference would it make to people’s lives?

Well that’s one of the reasons I now favour a wait and see approach. As how many trade barriers go up between the EU and the UK will be fairly indicative of what would happen between england and scotland.

My instinct is not very many in any real sense.

Basically, I think the wait and see approach is prudent, because the brexit thing will basically answer alot of questions, that right now, are basically open ended and can only be answered via wild speculation.

The brexit negotiations will help the IS argument.

there is nothing at all undemocratic about how Scotland is represented in governmentsalways governed by who the english vote for

its does not read that well really does it

The english just voted for brexit as they dont like to be ruled by foreigners though they then seem to think it weird that the scottish feel the same

I suspect the most Brexitee folk are also the most Unionist as well and critical of “ultra nats”- let not have a sidebar on this please.

I dont really get why you dont understand why a substantial number of a country will be irked by constantly getting a govt that england votes for an often one that is diametrically opposed to how they generally vote
there is an obvious democratic deficit, that partial independence tried to cure, that fuels all this talk.

Until that is addressed either by westminster or independence it will remain

I have no westminster based solution other than federalism

Junkyard – lazarus
there is nothing at all undemocratic about how Scotland is represented in governmentsalways governed by who the english vote for

its does not read that well really does it
The english just voted for brexit as they dont like to be ruled by foreigners though they then seem to think it weird that the scottish feel the same

I suspect the most Brexitee folk are also the most Unionist as well and critical of “ultra nats”- let not have a sidebar on this please.

I dont really get why you dont understand why a substantial number of a country will be irked by constantly getting a govt that england votes for an often one that is diametrically opposed to how they generally vote
there is an obvious democratic deficit, that partial independence tried to cure, that fuels all this talk.

Until that is addressed either by westminster or independence it will remain

I have no westminster based solution other than federalism

I don’t not understand it. I get it and it’s probably one if my main motivators in wanting independence, I’d like away from the tory dominance, myself…

I just don’t think it’s correct to call it undemocratic. Democracy by it’s very nature leaves a lot of people unhappy.

If you’re going to reprise that argument JY, I’ll just go and find another constituency which has voted Liberal for the last 100 years. Or maybe just a voter who has voted Green all their life. Because democracy is working just as poorly for them as it is for Scotland. Which doesn’t make the system undemocratic in any way.

Maybe it’s just that I have trouble seeing Scottish people as foreigners.

edit: actually joseph has it – it may be an argument for independence, but it would be helpful if people stopped calling it undemocratic when it isn’t.