Scotland Indyref 2

But perhaps you misunderstand what being part of the single market would involve ie giving up independence of fiscal and monetary policy and less sovereignty? The worst scenario would be a small country (having to fulfill entry criteria ouch!) being a member of a broken economic structure. As before that is the upmost folly.

Scotland already has little or no input on fiscal and monetary policy and less sovereignty than if we were an independent member of the single market.

I’ll take being a member of a broken economic structure with a population of 500 million over being a member of a broken economic structure with a population of 60 million people.

Maybe you just don’t understand how little influence Scotland has on how it is governed.

No i can see though politicians excuses a bit better and i understand how the single market works.

If it’s going to be such a ballache to leave the EU, isn’t it going to be an even bigger one to leave the UK and also re-join the EU possibly, or possibly have to wait outside both then re-join? Would businesses view this as unfavourably as Brexit?

But then, Scotland could enjoy a good position as the only other native English speaking country in the EU. But if there are special trade relationships with rUK being based in Scotland could allow access to both the EU and whatever trade empire rUK can create…

teamhurtmore – Member
I favour super majorities for such fundamental votes.
So do I.

Jo you are obviously far more sensible that your representatives who, in stark contrast, are jerking their knees faster than a reeling party goer

So we agree. Time for Nicola to STFU and concentrate on the job at hand until 2030. Stop the smokescreens and start delivering on your promises. That’s what “the interests of the Scottish people” is all about not pointless grandstanding.

Like Theresa she has v weak oppo, but unlike her a much stronger majority. So no more excuses. Time for results. Scotland deserves better. See you for the 2030 referendum!!

Don’t take that as an indication I wouldn’t vote yes again tomorrow! 😆

The dislike of tory westminster is a powerful force! 😆 as ben alludes to.

I think overall my view of the 2014 ref, with hindsight, is that there was a lot of naivety to it.

Time for Nicola to STFU and concentrate on the job at hand until 2030.

Unionists keep saying this. It’s odd because the SNP have been in power for a decade now, and are still incredibly popular – how do they do that if all they concentrate on is independence?

The obvious answer is that they’re doing a lot of other things, including running the country in a pretty competent manner. They are capable of doing more than one thing at once – just look at the discussions going on now at their conference.

What’s funny is that people have surveyed how much the SNP talk about independence versus other parties – and the other Scottish parties mention it an awful lot more than the SNP do!

Maybe you just don’t understand how little influence Scotland has on how it is governed.

What? It has the same amount as England and Wales, actually slightly more.

are still incredibly popular – how do they do that if all they concentrate on is independence?

Maybe people are pro SNP for the same reasons they were pro Brexit in England? Lashing out at the establishment? Maybe it’s simply reactionary rather than considered?

How exactly does the greater number of people benefit you? The most obvious difference being that you’ll have far less influence over the other 594 million than you do over the other 54 million. Are you seriously expecting that the greater number of people will result in Scotland doing more trade with them despite the opposite being the case at the moment – your previous musing about how things might change post independence have a similar level of fantasy to that of most Brexiters.

I think overall my view of the 2014 ref, with hindsight, is that there was a lot of naivety to it.

Well we agree again – as does Stiglitz the main econ advisor to the naive ones!

If you are going to do it, do it properly. Not half-arsed, half-baked and based purely on anti-English anti-Westminster rhetoric and candy floss. And dont avoid the currency question next time – it wont go away and the € is not the answer either.

Scotland deserves better. Much better.

An independent Scotland in the single market will have access to a larger market for goods and services and have greater sovereignty than Scotland inside the a UK that is outside the single market.

The one thing we know about trade is that the current levels of trade between Scotland and rUK and the EU is going to change. You can’t tell me how it’s going to change and I can’t tell you. I’m presenting an optimistic scenario and you’re not presenting any scenario you’re just telling me I’m being stupid.

Maybe you can say what you think is going to happen with Scotland outside the UK but inside the single market?

The same access as it has at present. Losing that access will make rather less difference than losing access to the rUK market – it’s a simple matter of where Scotland does trade with. I’m just not sure of the benefits of trying to change that around given the geography involved.

My scenario is that the trade with the EU won’t be much different than it is now (there’s no obvious reason why it should be), whilst trade with the rUK will be reduced due to trade barriers, in the same way Brexit is an issue for Germany. The only reason trade with the EU would increase is as an attempt to make up for loss of trade with the rUK, but it’s not going to make up for the loss. It being a larger market is somewhat irrelevant if you’re not actually trading with it – the US or the world is an even larger market, why are you limiting your ambitions?

I’m fairly sure my scenario is rather more based in reality than your optimistic one.

BTW you mention sovereignty as well – exactly how does that directly benefit an ordinary Scottish person?

I find it hard to believe that rUK leaving the single market while Scotland stays won’t result in any companies wanting to relocate to Scotland so they can continue business as usual. What do you think companies that rely heavily on trade with the single market will do if the UK leaves the single market? If they won’t move to Scotland where will they go?

Like I said, Scotland is a small country so it doesn’t take a large percentage of the firms currently based in England and Wales to relocate to have a large effect on trading.

As far as the sovereignty thing goes, I think you have to live in a small country to realise how close you are to members of the government.

When I moved to Norway I got chatting to a guy in a bar and it turns out he was the minister for culture. Apparently it was well known that this was his local.

The level of political engagement in Norway is far higher than it is in the UK because the politicians live amongst us.

A good illustration of what can happen when the prime minister pops out for some coffee and a paper.

Ireland, Holland…

teamhurtmore – Member
One can argue that any nation, state, region, etc can be independent. Of course they can but that is not the question….

It is very much the question.

Everything else is embroidery around the edges.

Ireland, Holland…

What would make Ireland and Holland more desirable than Scotland to the extent that none of these businesses would move to Scotland?

No it isn’t – its merely a statement.

What would make Ireland and Holland more desirable than Scotland to the extent that none of these businesses would move to Scotland?

Easy starter for ten – a less volatile currency. Marmite anyone?

Countering that of course, the left-of-centre (no really) government has the old lets compete on corporation tax card. So we have two tax types of “havens”, but one with a more volatile currency driven by the price of a commodity whose supply and demand is driven by others (#fakecontrol2). Not a tough choice that one, is it?

😆 there is a specific reason I picked those out of all the options available!

Though the most obvious other answer is that they will still be in the EU at the point the UK leaves.

To even make a stab at what might happen with trade, what industries are the main ones in Scotland? Could post Brexit the Rest of World make up for an lost EU trade?

O&G, Defence, Manufacturing
Food & Drink
Financial Services
Agriculture / Fishing
Tourism
Textiles
Electronics / Software

Easy starter for ten – a less volatile currency. Marmite anyone?

So now the Euro would be a good thing?

Though the most obvious other answer is that they will still be in the EU at the point the UK leaves.

That’s why I said a Scotland in the single market. We need to get our finger out with this referendum.

Remember, Scotland is a small country. We don’t need all the businesses, just some of them.

Bruce be sensible – the Euro? No that would be daft. You see, with a little thought you come back to same point. The interests of the Scottish people are best served as members of the UK coupled with a devolved assembly.

You can keep going round and round in circles – or believe the snake oil salesmen – but the hard truth remains the same. Why? Because its so bloody obvious which is why as Jo put it the last attempt looked so naive.

Bruce be sensible – the Euro? No that would be daft. You see, with a little thought you come back to same point. The interests of the Scottish people are best served as members of the UK coupled with a devolved assembly.

Holland and Ireland are more desirable because they use the Euro but the Euro is also such a massive folly you’d have to mad to use it?

In your opinion are there no businesses that would want to relocate from rUK outside the single market to an independent Scotland in the single market? Not a single one?

That’s not my opinion – however if the prime reason for moving is access to the single market then it’s far from the most desirable location, the options I suggested have pretty much everything Scotland has to offer along with other advantages. I’m sure you will get a few companies moving, but not the big players in the sort of scale you’d need for your vision.

Bruce – pause a little, This is becoming nonsensical now.

Holland and Ireland are more desirable because they use the Euro

As a foreign base – yes. A Scottish pound is likely to be more volatile due to the exposure to oil price. Why would you want that additional risk as a foreign company? (assuming similar tax rates etc).

but the Euro is also such a massive folly you’d have to mad to use it?

Different thing altogther. This is from the perspective of the home nation not the foreign company considering where to locate.

Of course, there is one hope – a disordely collapse pf the € – but the best place to “benefit” from that would to be part of the UK not as a marginal side player.

In your opinion are there no businesses that would want to relocate from rUK outside the single market to an independent Scotland in the single market? Not a single one?

No one is saying that, so why pose the question. Its irrelevant.

But once again, another circle but same end point. The interests of the Scottish people are best served as part of the UK.

It has the same amount as England and Wales, actually slightly more.

when did it last vote for a Tory govt?

When did the election results in scotland last decide an election result for the UK?
Same questions for England please.

IIRC it was 1951 for both questions for scotland

After that they get the govt england votes for
Now you can argue that is fair within a Union or unfair as you see fit but its hard to argue they have the same influence as England

Unionists keep saying this. It’s odd because the SNP have been in power for a decade now, and are still incredibly popular – how do they do that if all they concentrate on is independence

I voted for independance BTW

When did the election results in scotland last decide an election result for the UK?

2010 – we got a coalition instead of a Tory majority.

2015 – Scotland did it for labour (among other things) and delivered a Tory majority. Be careful what you wish for!!!

2015 – Scotland did it for labour (among other things) and delivered a Tory majority. Be careful what you wish for!!!

With only 1 Scottish MP the Tories would have got a UK majority without him. The only big difference in Scotland was the SNP tsking other non Tory seats.

If Labour had taken every Scottish seat there would still have been a Tory govt.

The inability of Labour to take Englush seats and the inability of the Lib Dems to hold seats let the Tories win their majority.

No one is saying that, so why pose the question. Its irrelevant.

Because if you’re prepared to admit that at least some businesses will move to Scotland then we agree on that point and then it’s just a question of numbers.

I think it will be enough to offset some of the loss of trade to the UK. You think it won’t be enough. Neither one of us is working with a great deal of solid information so all we have is our ill-informed opinions.

So unless you’ve got some evidence to show that an insignificant number of businesses would relocate maybe you should tone down your scorn for other people’s opinions.

Other people’s ill-informed views are just as valid as yours, I’m afraid. Being a dick about presenting your opinions doesn’t make you right, it just makes you a dick.

I think it will be enough to offset some of the loss of trade to the UK. You think it won’t be enough. Neither one of us is working with a great deal of solid information so all we have is our ill-informed opinions.

Speak for yourself Bruce, I am working off the facts and informed analysis.. But as you said yesterday they result in tough answers and dont make you Mt Happy. Life really isnt fair is it?

If you want to call falsification of non-points “scorn”, then so be it. The solution? Stick to sensible points rather than vague scenarios and, more importantly, the facts – accepting that having to listen to SNP groupthink might make that challenging.

Yours at large

Dickie xxx

molgrips
Maybe people are pro SNP for the same reasons they were pro Brexit in England? Lashing out at the establishment?

It may have escaped your notice but the SNP are the establishment. And as for having the same amount of influence as England, how is that possible gI’ve never the number of MPs? The fact is that Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales get what England votes for (EU Referendum anyone?)

If Scotland leaves the UK and remains / joins the EU, I don’t see Scotland being more attractive to business than anywhere else in the EU.
Native English isn’t an advantage anymore, the language skills in most European capital is superb. transport and other infrastructure across European capitals are superior. If there’s an exodus of business it will have lots of more attractive opportunities elsewhere in the EU.

Speak for yourself Bruce, I am working off the facts and informed analysis..

Thanks for that, I just spat out my Ovaltine.

As you were 😀

Native English isn’t an advantage anymore, the language skills in most European capital is superb. transport and other infrastructure across European capitals are superior. If there’s an exodus of business it will have lots of more attractive opportunities elsewhere in the EU.

Not only that, but as with Ireland, logistics becomes a real issue, as anyone who has sailed Rosyth to Zeebrugge will tell you, and the only other option becomes travelling through a non EU/single market country (rUK) to get there, so two sets of customs, paperwork galore. Being based in Ireland or Scotland for anything but service industries would be a nightmare.

Speak for yourself Bruce, I am working off the facts and informed analysis.

Citing facts without providing any evidence to back it up and pouring scorn on those who don’t accept your fact, doesn’t stw have a name for that? Jimbofact or something?

Ffs let’s not do this again.

Saying a safe labour seat in Scotland is different to one in Wales or England is nationalism. SE Wales also doesn’t have the government it voted for. Boo hoo, that’s democracy. You don’t always win. You’re wanting special treatment because you’re Scottish.

Ok so I am trolling a bit but the question is fundamentally that you believe you are a different nation. So let’s make it clear. It’s nothing to do with faulty representation within the UK system. You live in a UK constituency and you get one Westminster MP, same as everyone else. Except not, because you have an MSP too.

Re language – it’s not just that, it’s working practices too. And transport links too.

I wonder how so many companies manage to survive in Scotland just now then. It must only be because we are living next door to somewhere full of wonderful business people who can thrive no matter the political situation. A tiny bit of that must be rubbing off on us. We could never sustain any success at all without the guiding hand of our neighbors. Neighbors who are much more attractive to companies than Scotland. By god you are a patronising bunch of cocks.

molgrips – Member
…Boo hoo, that’s democracy. You don’t always win. You’re wanting special treatment because you’re Scottish…

No, it’s democracy when the majority in your country decides what policies you get, not the majority in another country.

Yes, we want special treatment – the same special treatment as all the other small nations in the world, the right to self determination.

km79 nails it. The opposition to Scottish independence is fundamentally racist.

Having lots of successful companies in Scotland at the moment (most of whom I imagine are serving the Scottish market, but for those exporting goods more of them are exporting to rUK than anywhere else) does not provide any evidence that companies are more likely to want to move there from rUK than to any other EU country full of successful companies.

teamhurtmore – Member
2015 – Scotland did it for labour (among other things) and delivered a Tory majority. Be careful what you wish for!!!

ahh the year the english people couldn’t stomach the thought of a labour gov backed by as scottish party! 😆 hence the tory majority!