Scotland Indyref 2

So- by his own admission I’m honest, because I said she’s considering it, and he is dishonest, because he claimed it was definitely her plan. And somehow this becomes “Keep denying NW.”

More spinning than a pipers band 😉

It’s not healthy tbh.

Its not – you will get giddy. Now admittedly, Sturgeon is not straight on the currency, but “has in mind” and considering is the same thing as you well know. In the book of dreams, a fanciful idea was put forward which collapsed immediately (as Stiglitz admitted despite Scotties attempts at denial). So you are left with two options – a new currency and the Euro. Correct me if I am wrong (but be honest this time) but i have yet to hear Sturgeon lay out plans for an independent currency. But we do know from her own words that she believes that the € is a viable option – which any sane person knows is total nonsense and contradictory to the whole essence of independence.

As you two are in education, I would expect more honesty on these issues but given the wave of post truths politics that has dominated the debate, you can be forgiven for being swallowed up in it. After all ends justify the meant for the nats after all.

But if Brexshit tells us one thing – is that you cannot escape hard reality for ever. In the meantime enjoy the pipedreams.

Why do you nats, always ignore the Welsh and the N Irish – and you claim that the English as self-obsessed?

teamhurtmore – your constant ramblings on here about the SNP and your barely veiled contempt and derisory remarks about Scotland have long worn thin.

You are increasing coming over as very bitter and unpleasant with a superiority complex. You should take a step back and re-evaluate your life, this obsession can’t be healthy.

KM – go back a few pages and see the positive comments about Scoltand. I love the place. What I hate is the crap spouted by yS and the deceit of Sturgeon and Salmond. Like all leaders of posttruthpolitics parties they need to be constantly held to account.

If you want to swallow what they say without checking then so be it. Its a democracy after all and remember that is what the Brexshitters did and look at the mess that has created.

As you were….you can always follow this

epicyclo – Member
teamhurtmore – Member
Dear old Nicola still can’t answer basic questions on Marr re the basics of an independent Scotland – groundhog day!!!
So what?

POSTED 3 MONTHS AGO # REPORT-POST

So what indeed – its not that important is it? 😯

THM – my post has for some reason or another been nuked.

So I’ll repeat:

Very true, like the BSers, those of the generations of recent history who have enjoyed the benefits of union and have bought forward consumption through an excessive use of debt now wish to deprive future generations of the same benefits and saddle them with the costs of our consumption. We are truly the selfish generation.

You’ll have to elaborate, what “future benefits” would I be depriving my daughter of? It’s exacly because of the loss of benefits I’d consider leaving. The benefits of freedom of movement and the single market trump the political direction the rest of the UK seems to be taking.

teamhurtmore – Member
What I hate is

Anything you feel will affect your balance sheet.

Lets cut through your BS will we. You dislike change. You like predictability.

It’s all about the balance sheet.

@rosscore – yes you have it, you will get called names for having those views

@donald ignore the result of an illegitimate referendum. To leave Scotland would have to send in the troops to keep the “English” out.

@seaso that would be the case if it where a UK wide Referendum, as it stands it would be like Yorkshire voting for Independence

If Scotland leaves the UK they would have in currency terms to

1) have a Scottish pound before taking the euro assuming they are able to join the EU sometime in the future
2) have the British pound before joining EU and taking euro
3) have the euro whilst outside the EU and keep it after joining

Brexit timetable is all done by 2019 and next European Elections – this makes Indy Ref 2 timing impossible imo any time soon

SNP would not win a Referendum today. Europe / euro is going to go pear shaped before 2019 possibly accelerated by Brexit. As such SNP would not call any Referendum till UK is definitely out. At that point rejoining EU is desperately difficult as noted above re-Spain / Catalonia etc. I strongky believe by 2019/2020 the EU and euro is going to look extremely unattractive to join.

Sorry SQ missed the ? – not deliberate.

Despite all the referendum BS, when you step back and consider the UK you see one of the best examples of a properly functioning union including a full and successfully working currency union (the thing that yS pretended that they could keep). It works precisely because the UK fulfills the criteria for having a shared currency in contrast to the EU which does not.

So you get all the positive economic benefits that accrue from open borders – higher growth, lower transaction costs, freedom of movement etc (its a ve long list) – with the benefits of diversifying risk associated with a relatively narrow economic bases including the excess exposure to the volatile oil price and having a central bank that is able to fulfil the function of a realistic lender of last resort (important given the (excess) size of the financial sector etc). That’s just for starters

On tip of this, you benefit from an increasing level of devolved power – despite not wanting to use all those powers.

Under what kind of madness would you want to throw these benefits away for future generations? The Book of Dreams demonstrated clearly that there is no sensible answer only smokescreens and deceit.

Now this is complicated because as a whole the UK has embarked on the ultimate madness of Brexshit. So we are all sufferering and this is all the more galling for Scots (as I have said many times early) because you (like the area where I live) voted to remain. So yes, we are stuffed. Its shit, really shit.

But, and this is the thing, is the knee jerk reaction of dear Nicola including “consideration” of joining the EZ and the € a sensible one? Of course not, that is even worse and would result in much less independence of the key instruments of policy and locking yourselves into a currency union which BY DESIGN HAS TO FAIL. Why would you wish that on anyone?

As Stiglitz finally admitted -if you want independence you have to be prepared to have your own currency and the risk and reward that goes with it. This is incompatible with membership of the EZ unfortunately, but there you go. Life is full of tough choices.

The best solution for all of us was to REMAIN but we have thrown that away. But that doesnt mean you do something even more foolish. Step 1 – minimise the damage from Brexshit.

Joe – its a bit early but I will have whatever you are having. Its Friday after all. 😉

Regardless of all the jambafacts being thrown about here I consider this pretty exciting. I’m English but lived in Scotland for about 5 years and only left under duress but our goal is to move back. I was very much No last time but it’s become clear that English government is so at odds with anyone even remotely left leaning and encourages such I’ll treatment of vulnerable people that Scotland, a country of warmth, generosity and compassion, can’t be ruled from Westminster.

Good luck Scotland, I hope this goes well this time.

And this talk of “Scotland” as some homogenous beast is also misleading. The same agreements about unrepresentative powers concentrated in narrow regions occurs in Scotland as they do for the whole UK. And remember the result of the vote

Dundee, Glasgow, N Lanarks (just) and W Dumbartonshire v the rest

OH thm the mask slips further still
Anyway I am sure NW and others are relived you do not play the man

oops forgot my use of winkys there didnt i
😉
😆

Scotland has some stunning scenery and great people.

They were also treated like carp by the English.

Don’t blame them if they want to leave and would love to join them.

Herald/BMG Poll: Published Scottish Independence Voting Intention results September 2016

“Speaking for the people of Scotland!!” 😀

Sturgeon is merely using Brexit to strengthen SNP position by casting doubts in people mind regarding the Union.

She knows very well that if she keeps quiet there is a very big risk their fire (SNP majority) will slowly burn out if PM May succeed in creating an unexpected Brexit success (or whatever negatives previously predicted).

Hence, she is using her leadership time to push for her own SNP agenda that can only be win win for her(I think she wants to be SNP leader for a long time) . For example:

1. Blame Brexit if Scotland is not doing well under SNP. i.e. Get the knife in while someone is still bleeding.

2. Suggest independent would make them better off but the Union prevented them (actually people do not want independent but keeping banging on the point anyway).

3. Claiming to be part of world citizen, EU or whatever BS there is so they want to be part of that (no, keep out of Asia).

All the blames above would ensure that she will not be accused of failing whatever she promised as SNP leader.

I bet King James 1 would be turning in his grave not resting in peace with all these SNP talks.

1. Scotland wasn’t doing well ages before Brexit, significantly poorly in fact if you look at the GERS figures and particularly when economically you remove major capital projects. People are in la la land if they think we can have a sustainable economy without something giving. Our top level tax take, the mythical 1% aren’t where the money will come from, it’s the next layer. You know, all those middle class cockwombles in their BMWs who are bank middle management. WERE bank middle managment post article 50 execution more specifically
2 Exactly, lets make an assertion with no basis.

They should really concentrate on creating better social equality, tackling child pverty in scotland which is an utter disgrace and stop myopically espousing ‘facts’ that are, generously, exaggerations.

. Scotland wasn’t doing well ages before Brexit, significantly poorly in fact if you look at the GERS figures and particularly when economically you remove major capital projects. People are in la la land if they think we can have a sustainable economy without something giving. Our top level tax take, the mythical 1% aren’t where the money will come from, it’s the next layer. You know, all those middle class cockwombles in their BMWs who are bank middle management. WERE bank middle managment post article 50 execution more specifically

So Scotland is uniquely unqualified to run its own affairs in the way any other small european nation does?

GERS is not argument against independence. Almost all the economic levers are still in the hands of Westminster not Holyrood. If the Scottish economy is a mess then its a sign that the status quo is not working not an advertisement for it.

So Scotland is uniquely unqualified to run its own affairs in the way any other small european nation does?

No, it just gave up that right when it signed the act of union, which as you well know was designed at the time to be forever and irrevocable

teamhurtmore – Member
http://www.bmgresearch.co.uk/scottish-independence-voting-intention-results-september-2016/

“Speaking for the people of Scotland!!” starting point was 25% last time…

Indyref 3.

There’s already been 2 once in a lifetime referendum on independence in my lifetime what difference will s third make?

when was the first?

1979

My bad was for a devolved parliament.

yup.

tbh If you look at that timeline.

79failed devo, (18 years) 97won devo, (17 years) 14failed indy, (16 years) 2030 scotland will gain independence.

It is an inevitability and the timeline I’d think people should be looking at.

THM, I see you still don’t know what post-truth politics is. You still seem to think it’s anything you don’t agree with.

In case I’m missing something, can you give us an example of SNP post-truth politics from the last seven days?

Richmtb-i wouldnt say we were unqualified , for a very long time we didn’t really need to worry as we were propped up by oil. Not so now. A lot of our central belt employment is also predicated on financial services. Financial passporting agreements will define what happens to that , I suppose we could mysteriously enter the EU and be a powerhouse, that would be great but I am a bit light on details of how hatcwould happen. Anyway, as a major employer it worries me.

can i have a pound bet he makes up something and spins it to the point of being untrue like the Euro point NW addressed

Whether Scotland can stay in the EU or not is being spoken about with an awful lot of certainty given the fact that no one, and I do mean no one, knows what would happen.

Although this chap doesn’t seem to think there’ll be a problem

Simple: since when has Scottish nationalism had membership of the single market at heart. This week has been another smokescreen with false claims about “rights” about the biggest lie of all – “best interests of the people of Scotland.”

Lets condisder fact: According to the Scottish Government’s own figures, Scotland’s removal from the single market would be far less damaging – by a factor of four – than its removal from the UK single market. And yet how does the narcissist present this in the posttruth world? You tell me.

History showed us that they were prepared to lie royally throughout and this remains the case. Only the blind cannot see this. Fortunately they (still) remain in the minority.

Scotland deserves better

It’s about time Yorkshire got its chance for independence! Sick of hearing about Scotlandshire want another vote. If they were not so narrow minded they could become part of an Independant Greater Yorkshire or YUK (Yorkshire United Kingdom).

I have to admit I’m surprised the voting intentions haven’t changed since the referenda – maybe you shouldn’t believe all you read on here.

Amongst all the rubbish THM does make some good points (it’s a shame he has to spoil it with the bluster – he clearly knows a lot more than people give him credit for). The fundamental one here being that like many remainers I’m prepared to put my political dislike for the EU to one side given the clear economic advantages. Yet the Scottish indy folk are prepared to vote for worse economic strife for the sake of a political point. Yes, I am English, but just like a French person looking at the brexit vote I recognise it would be bad for both of us.

I guess it depends on how you ask the question?

http://archive.is/XeUbD

May seems to be totally ignoring the Scottish people with a hard Brexit, I can see why NS would want another referendum.

Amongst all the rubbish THM does make some good points

why thank you

May seems to be totally ignoring the Scottish people with a hard Brexit, I can see why NS would want another referendum.

Have you met Mr Tusk?

cchris2lou – Member
May seems to be totally ignoring the Scottish people with a hard Brexit, I can see why NS would want another referendum.

Yes, Sturgeon is taking this opportunity to back stab PM May because she knows PM May is busy dealing with EU and Remainders at the moment.

She is trying it on as usual by pushing her views across strongly. She can even speaks without blinking her eyes and normally speak non-stops (without “breathing” or stopping) because she is trying to be viewed as if she knows what she is talking about. Very well rehearse.

The more PM May deals with EU with Brexit negotiations the more Sturgeon will push her views strongly across.

There should be a correlation with Sturgeon calling for independence and PM May negotiation intensity with EU.

If you want to know if PM May is intensifying negotiation, all you need to do is look at Sturgeon reaction.

Sturgeon will be able to get inside information from her EU bureaucratic informants. I assume they are buddy buddy because of the “common” enemy.

Does Tusk have some sort of responsibility to Scotland- did you not argue they were not in the EU as it was only the UK that was in ref 1 discussions? The UK is the only one that can do a soft brexit as the eu wont change the rules for us. we know this and we have always known this.

I agree THM does know his stuff but it would be better if he did not couch it in childish names for politicians and if he clearly articulated hos views rather than alluded and patronised.

Yet the Scottish indy folk are prepared to vote for worse economic strife for the sake of a political point.

I doubt the economic argument is as clear cut if the option is tied to the EU or tied to a post EU UK

Is the real problem not that the non scottish voters just voted for this and Scotland would rather avoid it ?

@cchris2lou she’s ignoring most of the people, I don’t think anywhere near a majority voted for hard brexit. Which is one of the big issues with the whole thing.

Since the brexit thread got hijacked by indyref talk, are we going to do the reverse here? 👿

Interesting as the pitch – though palpable lies- was to include access which looks increasingly unlikely- as we all knew anyway

Part of me hopes May is just doing all this so the three brexiteers get a shit deal and parliament force her to let them vte and they compromise on a new vote on the offered deal
Who knows with may as she sees hell bent on reducing immigration at any cost.