I still don’t understand this. 3 hours riding on a ebike, is the same as 3 hours on a normal bike.

It’s really not the same. It depends what type of riding you enjoy the most, You can get far more dh runs in with an ebike for example.

They’re 5mm spacers… not really sure why

Designer 1: I’m done guys, that’s as ugly as I can make it and I’ve only $0.03 left in budget.
Designer 2: hold my beer.

It’s really not the same. It depends what type of riding you enjoy the most, You can get far more dh runs in with an ebike for example.

Yeah, that’s obvious. More runs compared to pushing back up the hill.

But the post I quoted was talking about riding 30 odd miles quicker, so I`m assuming they are talking about old skool riding and not going up and down the same hill a lot.

Some people would struggle to ride 30 miles of proper MTB riding (me included and I ride at least twice a week all year round) so if you wanted to ride 30 miles and have the enjoyment of that length of ride then all good isn’t it.
Still can never see me getting an eBike and even less so a £7K+ one but what’s the problem with those that do.

Higher-end enduro style MTB market/sales will be more than 50% ebikes in a few years imo. 75% plus perhaps.
(Will be interesting to see how that comment ages)

What’s the ratio at the moment, do we know?

I don’t have your industry insight but I’d guess more like 25% of “proper” mid/long-travel MTBs might be electric in the medium term.

Feels more like about 10% at the mo, but perhaps there are higher proportions darn sarf.

We should have a sweepstake anyway.

Still can never see me getting an eBike and even less so a £7K+ one but what’s the problem with those that do

People don’t like change; or the perception that those with e-bikes don’t have to work as hard for the same trails. Or that they make people lazy and fat; or that they have more money than skills. It’s all bollocks though – as long as people get out and enjoy riding. I don’t get the hate. Personally I think a lot of it is envy 😉

Personally I think a lot of it is envy

No way you’d get an enve ebike for 7k

Serious question – There’s aspirational at 3/4/5k, then there’s a 6.5K starting price. Am I the only one that thinks this is not a great direction for MTB to be heading? Are we risking removing the basic premise that all comers are welcome? Yes I appreciate e-bikes are cheaper from other brands, but what we’re seeing is a move to a whole different level of attainable. Even if you can afford it now you have to seriously question the value. For someone looking at a stretch purchase its now totally off limits.

Yes eBike motors add a whack to the price, but really probably a grand would cover a like for like bike at retail, so this trend is price hikes for the sake of it. SC didn’t start it but I think they’ve been previously held as the attainable-aspirational bike. Not any more, and I think thats bad for MTB generally. What say you?

Serious question – There’s aspirational at 3/4/5k, then there’s a 6.5K starting price. Am I the only one that thinks this is not a great direction for MTB to be heading? Are we risking removing the basic premise that all comers are welcome?

I think with E-bikes we’re already WAY WAY past that point.

With a few exceptions you can find some bikes in the budget bracket to do a job… But it’s tough. All of mine and many of my mates bikes for both the adults and the youngsters who are all riding are all buying them used.]
Even that is CRAZY though to an extent…. My lads bike this weekend was £1100…. for an 11 year old…. That’s just bonkers… That’s used, not new !

No hatred or envy. If people enjoy them that’s fine by me. Personally I struggle to see the point of them and find it hard to believe that they will be more than a niche product in the long run.

I’ve said before that eMTBs are for the old and unfit in the same way that fatbikes are for snow and sand. By which I mean that they are not. Both can be enjoyed by groups outside of that core market. But both also come with downsides and in the long term (once all the marketing hype has died down) it’s mainly that core group (who don’t have viable alternatives) who will stick with them. There are still people riding (and enjoying) fatbikes on regular trails and there will still be young fit people enjoying eMTBs in five years time, but my guess is that it wont be many, because for most people, most of the time they aren’t really the best option.

As has been said above, most of us are limited by time. If you have, say, 4 hours a week to ride then what does going a bit further actually gain you? There are only so many local trails, so you just end up repeating them more often. But there is also a price to pay. Both financially and (if that is your main form of exercise) in loss of (aerobic) fitness. I just don’t think, for most people that is going to be a price worth paying in the long term. For some yes, but not for many I don’t think. But of course, I could be wrong.

Fugly and overpriced !! They’ll sell loads 🙂

If you have, say, 4 hours a week to ride then what does going a bit further actually gain you?

I get that for some folk, the decent trails might be 10 miles away. Making that bit go quicker/easier with the help of electronic assistance would prevent having to load up a car (faff and environmental concerns).

A huge wodge of money though. I can’t honestly see me ever paying out that on a bicycle. The most I’ve ever paid was £2.5k and that hurt 😉

Am I the only one that thinks this is not a great direction for MTB to be heading? Are we risking removing the basic premise that all comers are welcome?

That depends on if we get to a point where the only MTBs available are eMTBs that started at £2,000+

Can’t really see that happening as there will always be a market for those that can’t afford £2,000+ or don’t wan tot spend £2,000+ on an MTB

Benpinnick – I don’t think it’s a bad thing provided you have competition at all price points. I can’t think of a single consumer market where this doesn’t exist. If the likes of Vitus start pushing pricing, using the likes of Santa Cruz as an excuse then yes, it would be negative.

Specifically re Santa Cruz – wouldn’t they have had to pay a fair bit for r&d on test mules as well as the costs associated with the new frame mould. They will presumably want to recoup that outlay as quickly as possible to bring new models out going forward. Serious question rather than a dig: from a business perspective could you create a bird ebike (new front triangle, shock curve and tune to suit the bike etc) and justify selling it for £1k more than an equivalently specced standard bike now?

Price wise, looks like the top spec Bronson (on which this is based), is £9399, the same spec Heckler is £12000. So £2600 extra for a big downtube, a bought in motor and battery.

Doing it for a grand extra might be a struggle.

Ebikes are fugly as. Doesn’t matter whether they’ve made “effort” – they’re unavoidably ugly compared to bikes.

Ebikes are a bit like vapes. Nobody looks cool vaping – they look like berks 🙂

I’d argue this one doesn’t look too bad

^^you see I think that’s pretty good, a lot of the “just a bit of assistance” type road bikes look quite nice.

Specifically re Santa Cruz – wouldn’t they have had to pay a fair bit for r&d on test mules as well as the costs associated with the new frame mould. They will presumably want to recoup that outlay as quickly as possible to bring new models out going forward.

Serious question rather than a dig: from a business perspective could you create a bird ebike (new front triangle, shock curve and tune to suit the bike etc) and justify selling it for £1k more than an equivalently specced standard bike now?

Yes they would have spent some money on moulds, test rigs etc. Excluding the man hours the capital cost is probably about 10 top end model monies worth! Its not as expensive as people might have you think.

For us, we’re aiming straight at the Turbo Levo SL market with a lighter weight motor on a lighter weight frame, and yes when/if we launch one it will be priced like we took a regular bike and added a motor, not a whole extra bike 😉

when/if we launch one

You might have trouble with the name, birdE already make folding bikes.

Serious question – There’s aspirational at 3/4/5k, then there’s a 6.5K starting price. Am I the only one that thinks this is not a great direction for MTB to be heading? Are we risking removing the basic premise that all comers are welcome? Yes I appreciate e-bikes are cheaper from other brands, but what we’re seeing is a move to a whole different level of attainable. Even if you can afford it now you have to seriously question the value. For someone looking at a stretch purchase its now totally off limits.

Santa Cruz is not the right brand to consider when discussing this question as they are at the top end of the market in terms of pricing (the carbon Bronson frame this bike is based on costs a whopping £2639).

There are are base-level e-mtbs at that aspirational £3/4K level such as the Vitus E-Sommet, Spesh Levo, YT Decoy etc. Whether they are good value or not is up to the consumer as with any purchase.

Interesting comments @benpinnick The cynic in me often wonders whether the enthusiasm for ebikes from some manufacturers might be about getting customers used to paying more for bikes.

Since you are thinking of producing one you’re presumably seeing a demand from your customers and are confident that demand will last, which is interesting. As I said, I can’t see the point in them, but I guess plenty of people can.

I agree that some of the road offerings look OK and I did (briefly) toy with the idea when I bought my latest grave/adventure/whatever bike. Initially there was some appeal. I could have the comfort of those wider tyres and a more upright position but still be as fast as on my “race” bike. But I get a certain satisfaction from a 100 mile ride, which would be diminished if I knew the motor had done some of the work.

still be as fast as on my “race” bike.

Not without finding those 100mi rides much more taxing as all the motor would be doing is weighing you down, unless you’re slow on said race bike. (or the bike isn’t restricted to 15mph)

Ah, good point. I hadn’t even considered that. It is hilly enough round here so it might still work out to be a benefit, but you are right, the logic on a “fast” road bike is even more tricky. Depends whether there is any drag when the motor cuts out I guess.

What’s the ratio at the moment, do we know?

30%? Of new sales / sales growth vs last year it’s growing all the time. Of the bikes on the trails it’s lower as you say, will lag behind for a few years.

The cynic in me often wonders whether the enthusiasm for ebikes from some manufacturers might be about getting customers used to paying more for bikes.

Not cynical … the power system adds a big chunk but there’s no bike brand out there that doesn’t welcome the hike in average selling prices. It’s as much customer demand as sales push though. The value for the customer is there at the entry-mid level, you spend more but get more. £12k worth here? It’s like a £70k car isn’t it. Luxury spend. But every brand will get onto it imo – for the mid to large companies that can do them well there’s just no brand positioning to be had by stubbornly staying with non-powered bikes only – unless you’re a pure XC race brand, and who uses XC and climbing for marketing now?

£12k worth here? It’s like a £70k car isn’t it. Luxury spend.

I dont think it is though. Of the 12k a very small proportion is in the bit Santa Cruz make, whereas your 70k car is (ignoring the factory it comes from) made by the car maker. You’re buying into every switch, cable and engine part. You’re buying into the assembly, aftercare and resale value. On the bike, you’re basically paying for a £3000* frame with £9000 worth of someone elses parts on it. That don’t cost £9000 to buy and assemble. For anyone. And thats the issue I see. If eBikes are the catalyst for once moderately expensive brands to leap to a whole new level of expensive, then that I fear will be the damaging legacy of eBikes, not whether they rip up trails more/less/the same.

* I dont know if the frame has a price, but that would be reasonable.

Edit – its worth saying its happened before with say Specialized selling bikes that cost more than the sum of their parts, but that hasn’t caught on, but with EBikes they seem to be trying it again (no Specialized though, interestingly).

On the bike, you’re basically paying for a £3000* frame with £9000 worth of someone elses parts on it. That don’t cost £9000 to buy and assemble. For anyone.

i’m suprised that there aren’t really any frame only options for e-bikes.

I dont think it is though.

Not in that sense I agree. More in sense of price positioning – price as marketing as much as anything, ‘the best is most expensive’. Not saying it’s good value in my eyes, but it’s all subjective. Also not an option for many brands to price product that way.

i’m suprised that there aren’t really any frame only options for e-bikes.

Indeed. Folk who have already built up a high-spec analogue bike might find it easier/cheaper to move to assisted riding if they could take all/most of their parts with them. I guess there’s simply less money to be made that way.

I guess the decision to use the CC frame is part of this move to push the price up. Using a frame material that is a fair bit more expensive but only saves 200g on a bike with a motor seems daft. Then, when they are questioned about the range on the battery they say that you can always carry a spare as it’s only an extra 3Kg in your pack 🙂

Its one of the reasons that we’re looking at lower power, lighter options. The big motors (which I personally think have only got a few years left in them before the smaller ones offer natural ride feel & equal ride time but thats an aside) have a tendency to destroy everything – drive/wheels etc. Lower power motors will get us back to a point where we’re able to be weight weenies, and obsess over grams, and constantly swap bits around, which is as important as the ride… well sort of. Anyway, it makes a motorised frame possible. You will be stuck with my choice of motor, but otherwise go nuts.

Using a frame material that is a fair bit more expensive but only saves 200g on a bike with a motor seems daft.

Not when you look at how much it costs to make a carbon frame vs alu and then look at how much they sell for. Then you know why Yeti stopped making Alu.

You will be stuck with my choice of motor, but otherwise go nuts.

Do it 🙂

I’ve no doubt there would be a market for this.

The Lappiere with the Fazua motor appeals more to me.
Same sort of weight as a heavy trail/Enduro bike but with assistance.
And once battery runs out or removed pedals more like a normal bike.

My feeling is that there is no right or wrong, it does not matter what any of us think. You can get a Mountain bike for under £1k or anything through to £12k , you can have a motor or not , Person A thinks Bike Y is ugly and Person B thinks its pretty – neither is right or wrong. Your not being forced into spending £10k or restricted to spending £600 so no point in bitching about the cost of £10k+ bikes – its called choice, and we have a wide ranging choice – the last few years has seen the growth of very good £1k-£2k bikes so there is more great choices than ever.

The thing to remember is this is Fun, you dont need a £10k bike to have fun , fun can be had on a £600 hardtail (possibly more fun depending on how you look at it) so buy at the price point you can afford and justify to yourself and then go and have fun.

So tell me – has geex been banned? or is my killfile just working well?

Geex is sadly missed, indeed.

I would expect Santa Cruz are using the cc carbon on this one to recoup the cost of investment in new tools/motors and the like.

Once the first batch of big ticket bikes are sold then the c variant and even possibly alu versions will appear.

Personally I think (hope) the fact that there are still some boutique brands missing from the e bike market is keeping the price of the bikes artificially high. The fact that the tech still isn’t ‘really’ mature yet is keeping them away and the manufacturers who are selling e bikes are making some money on the high demand/interest in them.

The lighter/smaller motor and battery combo bikes appeal to me (really like the look of the Levo SL) but again, until there are more of this style of bike on the market the price will stay high.

I’m more disappointed that they have sullied the Heckler name as an e bike! I really wanted to see some single pivots return from them in the future with that historic name but hey ho….

If you are missing geex you can find him upsetting people on the EMTB website forums

I’m guessing frame only (,i.e including motor) doesn’t work from a warranty/support/ letting someone wire everything up themselves point of view