Viewing 40 posts - 201 through 240 (of 295 total)
  • Santa Cruz ebike
  • Premier Icon Paceman
    Full Member

    the additional price tag is MORE than the cost of the base model that company sells, e.g. for a base heckler you could buy the same spec bronson, a 5010 AND still have change.

    That wasn’t the case when the Bronson came out though, it was only 2-3 years later that SC released lower priced Bronson/5010 builds and alloy framesets at a lower price. Hopefully the same will happen with the new Heckler (…yeah, what am I thinking??!?!)

    Premier Icon singlespeedstu
    Full Member

    Tom
    Buying and running an MX bike for a year will cost you a whole heap more than buying and running an ebike for a year…

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Full Member

    People just wont invest in a sport where they’re told that in order to keep up with their mates the additional price tag is MORE than the cost of the base model that company sells,

    This is likely to be an issue for me at some point. Once a few friends have them I’m less likely to want to ride with them. I’d either be holding them back on the hills or simply not making the same average speed on a flatter ride without turning myself inside out. And that’s not what I want to do.

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Full Member

    I see it as symptomatic of an industry thats spent beyond its means in terms of marketing/sponsorship etc. for some time and suddenly sees a new cash cow come over the horizon and its trying to claw back some of that investment

    Well that’s an interesting perspective if accurate.

    If the market drives to e as the normal

    But this is a very big “if”. I just don’t see the appetite for it at all. Still don’t have any riding buddies who have gone electric.

    More likely to always be a parallel pursuit to normal MTBing, with a venn diagram of participants.

    Premier Icon tomhoward
    Full Member

    Buying and running an MX bike for a year will cost you a whole heap more than buying and running an ebike for a year…

    Are people thinking that when they look at the initial purchase price though. How many times have you seen comments like ‘I’ll buy an MX bike instead’ on places like here and pinkbike, never mind in the wider market, when expensive bikes are launched? That’s for both normal and emtb.

    Premier Icon dangeourbrain
    Full Member

    they think £125K Audi R8 Coupe is way out of my league, but i’m happy with a Golf GTI for £28K

    ^^or a kia or what ever at less than a (markedly expensive, aspiratonally badged) golf.

    And that’s the thing, most people think a 500 voodoo is a lot of money for a bike, they’re put off by an 800 boardman, they see a 5k bike, electric or not, the same way I do a porsche.

    Ebikes are being pushed as some sort of gateway – by and large I think to keep the cycling press and groups happy – and that makes the pricing look mad, think of it as a high end because I can product and suddenly the pricing doesn’t seem so unreasonable. Its a fancy toy being sold to people who already spend on fancy toys, santa cruz has always marketed itself in that space and their margin on this is likely less than their non ebikes.

    The bike you’re looking at are no more a gateway than a formula 3 car is a gateway to motor racing and pricing is in line with that and the worry is the same about pricing people out, you can go to a track day in your mk1 escort and be racing ferraris, you might even enjoy it. Liklihood is, your mates are going to turn up in escorts too and, even if you do have a ferrari driving mate or four, it won’t put you off going.

    Comparatively this forum is largely a bunch of folk who own an rs6 moaning about the cost of a brabus 800

    Premier Icon Paceman
    Full Member

    I have an enthusiastic group of young shredders in my mountain bike maintenance club at the secondary school I work in. One thing I do know is that they think e-mtb is the coolest thing going and all want one when they’ve saved up enough money. They simply don’t have the baggage we have in terms of the years and years of “earning your downhills” etc, and see it as a way to ride further, faster and get more of the fun bits into a ride.

    …I just hope e-mtb entry-price isn’t a limiting factor for them in getting their first dream bike (we all have a number of dream bikes through our riding life, right?). At the moment they’d be more than happy with something like a Vitus E-Sommet at around £3K, as long as there remains value(??) at the lower end then they may be ok.

    Premier Icon Paceman
    Full Member

    Comparatively this forum is largely a bunch of folk who own an rs6 moaning about the cost of a brabus 800

    🙂 🙂 🙂

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Full Member

    Comparatively this forum is largely a bunch of folk who own an rs6 moaning about the cost of a brabus 800

    I’m not that au fait with the car models, but I feel more like a slightly smug Skoda owner laughing at the prices people pay for Audis or Range Rovers.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Full Member

    I’ve just looked it up. Brabus 800 is around £250k

    Premier Icon dangeourbrain
    Full Member

    I’m not that au fait with the car models

    Me either, though I often get passed by a brabus tuned merc on my commute and, even as a “what’s the boot space and mpg like” car person, I do go a bit weak kneed at the noise the thing makes.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Full Member

    Hey, imagine my surprise. The only Brabus I’d ever heard of before this thread was the Smart Car. I was struggling to see the relevance.

    Premier Icon singlespeedstu
    Full Member

    How many times have you seen comments like ‘I’ll buy an MX bike instead’

    My guess is they have no idea how much it would really cost them to run a bike for a season.

    Premier Icon lightfighter762
    Full Member

    I was at Innerleithen the last two days in the snow, I have a Bentayga with with a hitch rack. You can see the straight hate people. I do not even have Gucci bikes. A norco FFS. Santa Cruz and Yeti. Lame bikes.

    Premier Icon somafunk
    Full Member

    How many times have you seen comments like ‘I’ll buy an MX bike instead’

    I would love to see these moaning **** even attempt to ride a MX bike, within 1/2 lap of a track they’d be suffering so much arm pump that having a piss afterwards would entail them asking for help to get their stubby noggin released from their pants by their mum

    (raced motox from 8yrs to 20yrs old with full factory sponsorship so i know how much riding/training it takes to hold onto a 125/250cc at full chap, theres no chance a stw keyboard warrior could even pick one up after being spat off.)

    Premier Icon StuE
    Full Member

    I bought an mx bike during the foot and mouth crisis (remember that) and rode most weekends at various practice tracks,I have never been as knackered on an mtb as I was after a day of riding my Honda cr250, never suffered much from arm pump (probably didn’t ride fast enough) but everything else ached for days afterwards

    Premier Icon petercook80
    Free Member

    I was at Innerleithen the last two days in the snow, I have a Bentayga with with a hitch rack. You can see the straight hate people. I do not even have Gucci bikes. A norco FFS. Santa Cruz and Yeti. Lame bikes.

    I dont think its the bikes thats the problem ……

    Premier Icon alexxx
    Free Member

    A guy on one of the shoots when I lived on an estate had a Bentayga and got grief off a lot of people who had deep pockets.. I don’t suspect it’d be any different from a carpark full of working and middle class blokes.

    The bikes aren’t the issue either, people can buy what they want (cars or bikes).. and getting judged is out of your control.. depends how you own it to if it affects you.

    If you are enjoying yourself who cares… if you’re moaning about other peoples stuff or that person is moaning then move on.. life is too short to be surrounded by nobbers.

    I have a Nomad by the way… and its far from a lame bike. Lifetime warrantee on frame and wheels and didn’t need a single part changing other than brake pads and tyres after 100 days of riding in the alps… think I’ll keep it.

    Premier Icon lightfighter762
    Full Member

    Valid points for sure. Yeah life is too short. It was just an observation. Enjoy your Nomad. It is the only SC worth having. I would take one over a Bronson any day.

    Premier Icon RustyNissanPrairie
    Full Member

    The Honda Crf Rally I alluded to is a 24hp 250 dual sport/trail/adventure bike with a Dakar style fairing/front end. It’s £5k new from a dealers. Its VFM compared to any ebike (or most analogue bikes nowadays) is slanted in its favour although I accept it’s not a like for like comparison it’s still enough to turn my back on ~£1k forks, £2.5k frames etc that are worthless when the next trend comes along.

    Premier Icon StuE
    Full Member

    Unfortunately there are not enough trails you can legally ride a motorbike on anymore, if there was I probably wouldn’t be riding a mountainbike

    Premier Icon alexxx
    Free Member

    Sounds like you need to move StuE

    Premier Icon argee
    Full Member

    Saw a couple of the hecklers today, they are nice looking bikes, massive downtubes, but that’s to be expected, reality is they’re pretty much priced in line with the rest of the SC collection, there will be a market for these and i can’t see it not being a decent bike overall.

    Premier Icon ta11pau1
    Full Member

    The Honda Crf Rally I alluded to is a 24hp 250 dual sport/trail/adventure bike with a Dakar style fairing/front end. It’s £5k new from a dealers. Its VFM compared to any ebike (or most analogue bikes nowadays) is slanted in its favour although I accept it’s not a like for like comparison it’s still enough to turn my back on ~£1k forks, £2.5k frames etc that are worthless when the next trend comes along.

    But in the world of motorbikes, the crf250 rally is a budget model, and after a year or 2 on it you’d probably be wanting more power, better suspension, better brakes, and have part exchanged it for a ktm 790 adventure R at £11k…

    The crf250 rally is a vitus hardtail when compared to mtbs.

    The santa cruz heckler is a ducati multistrada 1260 enduro at £17,000.

    Premier Icon chestrockwell
    Full Member

    I’m not that au fait with the car models, but I feel more like a slightly smug Skoda owner laughing at the prices people pay for Audis or Range Rovers.

    Why would a Skoda owner be smug? Nothing wrong with them but they’re white goods. Oh, and who ever above said a Golf is aspirational is wrong. I don’t personally like Audi’s but you can see where the extra money goes.

    Premier Icon choppersquad
    Free Member

    Getting back to the Santa Cruz (and ebikes in general), when you stop pedalling on the down bits, does the motor completely disengage? I’m sure some of the complaints on the older bikes were the level of resistance from the motor still being engaged? As far as the Heckler goes, I won’t be getting one because I can’t afford it. I also won’t be getting a porsche for the same reason but I’m sure lots of people will buy one, and if that keeps people in employment then who am I to judge? As has been said before, it’s not pretty but that won’t change until motor/battery sizing reduces a fair bit. Love it or hate it, Ebikes seem to be the future, but whether that’s a good thing is always going to split opinions.

    Premier Icon tomhoward
    Full Member

    Getting back to the Santa Cruz (and ebikes in general), when you stop pedalling on the down bits, does the motor completely disengage?

    Yes, it’s a legal requirement that the motor only assists when you are pedalling. If you mean ‘is there any drag on the pedals from the motor, when the motor is turned off’ then I can only speak first hand for the Specialized system, which doesn’t have any, but I’m pretty sure the shimano system used on the SC doesn’t either.

    Premier Icon chiefgrooveguru
    Free Member

    Yep, my Levo rides just like a normal bike (with some extra ballast) with the power turned off. Personally I prefer how the extra mass makes it handle in all but uphill situations, and especially in terms of suspension behaviour and when you’re airborne.

    Premier Icon jameso
    Full Member

    That’s the thing though. Customers don’t see the sub £4K market as ‘still really good’. They see it as ‘its a third the price of the stuff I see in the mags/on Instagram, so must be inferior. I can’t afford £12k for the good stuff, so I won’t bother.’

    Brands should never assume ‘customers’ are one thing, one mentality or ‘all like us’. But it’s easy to see the market through your own eyes. Price is marketing, price positioning is how every brand finds space in the market, etc. Brands like Bird make great bikes at a good value RRP. Other brands make Al FS bikes with slicker marketing and stories and cool team riders and add 30% to the RRP. People buy into one or another because they’re different types of consumers.
    You and I buy bikes differently Tom – with respect, I know you’re happy to pay for stuff that I wouldn’t be interested in even at trade price and that’s no criticism or dig, it’s just that I see value in different things or types of product. We’re almost opposite ends of the rider-consumer line, we support different parts of the market and different brands. A £12k MTB has absolutely no impact on how I relate to MTB as a pass-time, scene, etc either. If you owned one and we rode together it would make no difference to how I see you as a rider – only a hint at you as a consumer.

    Almost no-one of basic fitness and health needs a battery or full suspension to have fun on a bike off-road. If you do see it as a need or you’re into Enduro racing vs ‘just riding off-road’ you just need to accept the costs are far higher, you’re into a different game now – how much higher links into how you see brands, value, yourself as a consumer etc. SC are using price as marketing here, that’s all.

    Premier Icon jameso
    Full Member

    We’re almost opposite ends of the rider-consumer line

    – btw not meant as 100% rider one end, 100% consumer the other, reads wrongly. More like riders as consumers, about willingness to spend on tech – or the retrogrouch to loves-new-gear line.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    There is a tiny bit of extra drag when pedaling and the motor not running because you are turning a few more bits ie a clutch ( on most bikes). Its insignificant tho
    On the bosch ones with the small drive sprocket there is a chunk more drag as you are turning an reduction gear as well
    You are not turning the motor tho
    When you are freewheeling there is no extra drag

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Full Member

    Customers don’t see the sub £4K market as ‘still really good’. They see it as ‘its a third the price of the stuff I see in the mags/on Instagram, so must be inferior.

    Sorry I can’t see where this was originally posted, so I’m not sure who I’m addressing – but I’m sure it’s a red herring.

    I have a wide circle of riding buddies, all been into it for years and know what’s what kit-wise. Not sure anyone’s on a bike that cost more than £4k.

    Personally my Radon cost me £2k, and I’ve put maybe £600 of upgrades on it (adjusting for sale of OE parts) – and there’s nothing I’d change. Lyrik RC2, Float X2, Hope/E13 wheels, Code brakes – decent overall weight, progressive geometry and 170mm travel both ends – it’s a very fast and capable bike which I’m sure is a match for the SC Megatower or whatever premium brand bike.

    To suggest that £12k bikes somehow devalue £3k or £4k bikes is daft and I’d be a bit more robust than James and suggest anyone thinking that needs to spend more time riding and less time on the internet.

    If the £4k figure was specifically about eBikes (which doesn’t seem the case from James’ reply), then that’s not my area of expertise.

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Full Member

    Why would a Skoda owner be smug? Nothing wrong with them but they’re white goods.

    All cars (and bikes) are white goods, that’s exactly my point. A Skoda is a Hotpoint fridge and a Range Rover is a Smeg frigde. They do the same job at widely differing prices, but one has a certain “prestige” in the mind of the buyer. Who may be considered a mug or a snob by some.

    who ever above said a Golf is aspirational is wrong

    I’m not a car enthusiast, but the only time I can remember anyone telling me they aspired to own a particular car in the last 20 years was a woman I used to work with.

    Doing quite well and promoted into middle management in media in London, she said “I’m buying a VW Golf, I’ve always wanted to have one.”

    But she must have been wrong.

    Premier Icon chiefgrooveguru
    Free Member

    “I have a wide circle of riding buddies, all been into it for years and know what’s what kit-wise. Not sure anyone’s on a bike that cost more than £4k.”

    I think a handful of people I ride with have a bike that cost a bit more than that but not very many. And that’s out of a lot of people.

    Regarding ebikes, £5k got me a Levo with Hope V4 brakes, a BikeYoke Revive dropper and a 160mm Lyrik RC2. And that’s a current model Levo, which is far from the best value ebike, bought from my LBS. I struggle to see how an ebike could be any better, different sure, but quantifiably better, doubtful. It’s a hell of a lot of money anyway, even if you could spend more than twice as much!

    Premier Icon jameso
    Full Member

    who ever above said a Golf is aspirational is wrong

    Aspiration isn’t only related to price. The Golf is one of the strongest brand/model names in that part of the market, has been for decades. An original hot-hatch and marketed well ever since. Brand power, all about aspiration whether that’s aspiring to an image or elitism. Backs up why I think a mid-range bike can still be aspirational, that £12k premium price aspiration doesn’t negatively impact on image/attitude type of aspiration.
    Edit, look at how many aspired to Sick! Bikes brand image… followed them like the pied piper, keen to align with all that radness.

    If the £4k figure was specifically about eBikes (which doesn’t seem the case from James’ reply), then that’s not my area of expertise.

    Tom’s post was how this £12k model affects perception of the £4k type equivalent, so e-bikes here, or custom road bikes, pretty much the same thing.

    Premier Icon kiksy
    Free Member

    Backs up why I think a mid-range bike can still be aspirational, that £12k premium price aspiration doesn’t negatively impact on image/attitude type of aspiration.

    As alluded to already, ebikes are often touted as a way of getting people who maybe wouldn’t ride a normal bike out on the trails.

    Imagine someone who is interested in getting one who walks into a shop knowing nothing about bikes and sees a £12k one on the wall, asks if they have anything cheaper and gets shown the “entry level” model at £4k.

    What percentage of people are just going to walk out at that point knowing that they will never be able to afford to get into the sport? Many people equate that the second cheapest option is often the best wine choice in a restaurant, so say that’s £5k.

    Honestly how many people can really afford that as an entry into a sport?

    Premier Icon moonsaballoon
    Full Member

    Back in 1997 when I was 17 my dream bike/car combo was a Santa Cruz heckler and a golf GTI , currently have a flare max and a Honda although if someone offered me a Bronson and a golf I wouldn’t say no .

    Im not sure these expensive bikes are going to threaten mtbing , if anything I think these days there is an abundance of really good relatively cheaper bikes from the likes of Bird , nukeproof , canyon etc and that ibis ripmo af looks the business . I do a few enduro races and although you do see a few 6k bikes you see far more 2 to 3 k ones . Just as people will buy the heckler there will be more on  vitus , canyon , yt etc

    Premier Icon moonsaballoon
    Full Member

    Honestly how many people can really afford that as an entry into a sport?

    How many people think like that ? Pretty much everyone I know who rides started with a relatively cheap hardtail moved on to a better hardtail before getting a full suss .

    The thing about ebikes getting new people into mtbing is interesting as I would reckon at the moment most people who own a full suss ebike are already mtbers with a normal bike . I wonder if you took someone who had never ridden before to say glentress and they rode an ebike and had a brilliant time would they think about buying an ebike or a normal bike , would they see what they had done as mtbing or emtbing and view them as different activities.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Full Member

    Imagine someone who is interested in getting one who walks into a shop knowing nothing about bikes and sees a £12k one on the wall, asks if they have anything cheaper and gets shown the “entry level” model at £4k.

    What percentage of people are just going to walk out at that point knowing that they will never be able to afford to get into the sport<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>?</span>

    As already pointed out, there has always been a very expensive “top end”, S-Works, Pinarellos etc have been around for decades. Most folk aren’t interested in spending that amount of money and know that when they go into a shop. Folk don’t walk into a bike shop, see a £6k SC and then walk out, they ask about what is available within their budget. I don’t think that the general public are as shallow as many folk on here seem to be suggesting.

    Premier Icon jameso
    Full Member

    What percentage of people are just going to walk out at that point knowing that they will never be able to afford to get into the sport?

    I don’t think many people are walking into bike shops aspiring to start in the sport of powered technical terrain mountain biking, or if they are they’re like kite surfers or jet skiers and prepared to pay for the gadgets.
    The ‘sport’ thing as some see it here and the ‘new riders’ is misaligned. In your example the customer walked into a shop that’s not selling well to them, or a specialist shop – entry price points for a leisure E-MTB (one for people that wouldn’t usually ride) is about £2k for an E-hardtail that will do well on basic to middling trails. A E-FS at £12k, even £4-5k, may be about as relevant to them as someone looking at ice-climbing gear for winter walks in the valleys.
    – If you need E- or FS or both to get out on ‘tech trails’ then pay the price, £3k or more. If you just want to get out on a bike it’s much cheaper.

    Honestly how many people can really afford that as an entry into a sport?

    Another way I’d look at this – how many people can afford a £25k+ car on HP when paying half that does the same job? Many. In comparison a £5k bike isn’t a stretch? No-one’s being put off ‘the sport’ based on E-bike pricing, sales suggest the opposite – average selling prices are up and e-bike sales are booming. New riders who wouldn’t have spent £800 on a hybrid before are buying £2k+ e-bikes, the spend hike on FS MTBs to E-FS is probably smaller % wise but not much. The E- part adds value in ways that many of us who are long-time cyclists don’t appreciate or relate to.

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