Santa Cruz ebike

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  • Santa Cruz ebike
  • Premier Icon tomhoward
    Subscriber

    I don’t see why you couldn’t supply everything pre fitted. I just assume that the ‘frame’ price would be so hideously bad value that no one would buy it, over a complete, if very basic, build.

    Premier Icon benpinnick
    Subscriber

    If you slim it down to an app for modification of the settings, and the motor/battery is fitted and tested before shipping then the rest of the bike is just a bike. There’s some overcomplications going on with displays and controls and what not, most of which I think you can dispense of on an MTB.

    Premier Icon benpinnick
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    The total cost for custom low manufacturing volumes carbon FS frame with shock and motor/Battery etc. (one of the main brands) would be well below £2k imported into the UK Ex VAT. At high volumes you could maybe get to half that.

    What price it then sells for is a totally different question of course.

    Premier Icon Elbows
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    I am with fettlin, don’t think I had a digital camera when I bought my first Heckler (97)

    tpbiker
    Member

    My first full susser was a 2011 heckler. All I remember was it wasnt all that good.

    I like that ebike though. I wouldn’t buy one, or any ebike, as it would be pointless for the riding I do. But If I only enjoyed the downhill element of cycling, as many folks do, then it would be a no brainer. I remember when starting out me and the boys would go to gt and inners and getting to the top was a slog. If if could of got there in half the time on am ebike then it would have been brilliant.

    Premier Icon iainc
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    Nobeerinthefridge

    Member
    Geex is sadly missed, indeed.

    As said above, Gary is rather prolific over on EMTB Forums….

    Though from a personal perspective, apart from ripping the pish outta me, aka nobeer stylee 😂, he has been very helpful 😜

    razorrazoo
    Member

    The total cost for custom low manufacturing volumes carbon FS frame with shock and motor/Battery etc. (one of the main brands) would be well below £2k imported into the UK Ex VAT.

    Is that price to the manufacturer? So say £1-2k + 20% VAT, plus distributor/retailer margin etc?

    Premier Icon benpinnick
    Subscriber

    Yes that’s correct.

    Premier Icon dangeourbrain
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    So say 1500 cost.
    I’ll assume including dev and marketing costs.
    +30% margin for mfr.
    +30% distributor
    +50% retail at sale, 80% to rrp.
    +20%VAT

    That’s a 5.5k frame at rrp, selling at 4.5k in the sale

    (not sure on cycle industry but my distributors want 40-50% retail 80-100% to hit list price. My selling price is between list less 50 and 75%)

    Premier Icon dirkpitt74
    Subscriber

    So £7k will get you the base spec Heckler or a Fox equipped X01 build Atherton Enduro.

    I’m now trying to work out which one is the better VFM….

    Out of curiousity anyone know what the cost of the Shimano drive unit is – retail and OEM?

    Also where do SC get their carbon frames made?

    Premier Icon iainc
    Subscriber

    7k would also buy you a close to top of range Orbea Wild FS, with a full carbon frame. Bosch 2020 motor, 625 battery, full 2020 XT and a Fox 36, with decent 29er wheels and top finishing kit….

    Premier Icon benpinnick
    Subscriber

    So say 1500 cost.
    I’ll assume including dev and marketing costs.
    +30% margin for mfr.
    +30% distributor
    +50% retail at sale, 80% to rrp.
    +20%VAT

    That’s a 5.5k frame at rrp, selling at 4.5k in the sale

    Thats for your mid size distributor led option though, like a Yeti or a Mondy. The bigger guys will be direct to the shops and paying more like the 1k cost. Therefore having the option of chopping a couple of grand off the ‘possible’ price. For most shops use more like +50-60% to RRP, infact if you add 50% per hop you’re probably not too far off the truth.

    Premier Icon benpinnick
    Subscriber

    Out of curiousity anyone know what the cost of the Shimano drive unit is – retail and OEM?

    Also where do SC get their carbon frames made?

    I do yes, OE anyway, but sorry I can’t say. On the frames, I’d not get hung up on where they’re made. Most frames at a reasonable quantity will cost broadly the same and country of origin is not a specific indication of quality. That is to say you won’t find Chinese frames to be vastly cheaper than say Taiwanese ones, if the factory is as good. Some are geared on small runs, some big runs, some you pay more up front, some you pay more per unit. What is definitely true though is that carbon when done on a large scale isn’t especially ‘expensive’. Its all relative of course but say a run of 2000 high end chinese carbon frames will have a unit cost not wildly different to that of a 100 batch of quality Taiwanese Alu, even when you include mould costs.

    Premier Icon rhayter
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    What it costs = what they think the market will stand while providing the profit margin they want. It’s got nothing to do with what it costs. Because, capitalism.

    quote: “What it costs = what they think the market will stand while providing the profit margin they want. It’s got nothing to do with what it costs.

    But did anyone actually think it did ?  if you did then get a pin and burst your bubble. Price of “High End” stuff (whatever it is) never ever has had anything to do with what it cost…

    Premier Icon dangeourbrain
    Subscriber

    Price of “High End” stuff (whatever it is) never ever has had anything to do with what it cost…

    You clearly don’t know how much those logos cost to use.

    Premier Icon ta11pau1
    Subscriber

    In defence of SC prices (I feel dirty already…) the price of an item isn’t just the item, its also the service, after sales, warranty etc.

    But yeah, a badge can add a lot to the price of something that is very similar.

    See Audi/VW/Seat/Skoda…

    You clearly don’t know how much those logos cost to use.

    I will send you a pin in the post…..

    Premier Icon mehr
    Subscriber

    It’ll be interesting to see how the second hand ebike market shakes out, what with batteries dying over there life span etc

    Premier Icon sillyoldman
    Subscriber

    Batteries can be easily (if not cheaply) replaced. Older generation motors will kill 2nd hand bike values though.

    scotroutes
    Member

    Older generation motors will kill 2nd hand bike values though.

    Do you mean newer generation motors will kill 2nd hand bike values? I’d assumed we were yet to see some big changes which might make current kit redundant very quickly. I guess that new battery technology can be retro-fitted and if there was an agreed standard for motor fitment, then it’s possible that motors could also be upgraded without trashing a whole bike.

    **** you bike industry – you’ve priced me out of it. I don’t want budget stuff due to riding mountain bikes for 30+ years I want suspension with loads of adjustment and shifters with bearings rather than bushes etc. Ebikes and especially SC and Specialized just don’t offer VFM and I don’t want the hassle of returning a frame to Germany when it cracks.
    I’m off to buy a new Honda CRF Rally for £5k to clack about on – yes I know volume of manufacturing scale blah blah but £7k to £12k for a glorified push bike is absolutely insane.

    Premier Icon benpinnick
    Subscriber

    And there in a sweary nutshell is my point.

    razorrazoo
    Member

    if there was an agreed standard for motor fitment, then it’s possible that motors could also be upgraded without trashing a whole bike.

    Ah the ‘agreed standard’ the thing that works so well elsewhere in the bike industry. Even if there is one it will be changed every couple of years.

    Premier Icon Paceman
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    And there in a sweary nutshell is my point.

    Ben, it sounds like there could be a gap in the market for an affordable frame-only alternative?

    Premier Icon tomhoward
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    That’s the thing though. Customers don’t see the sub £4K market as ‘still really good’. They see it as ‘its a third the price of the stuff I see in the mags/on Instagram, so must be inferior. I can’t afford £12k for the good stuff, so I won’t bother.’

    Not helped by the bigger, more mass market, brands doing mega money stuff, people assume it’s the mid range. If a (relatively) mass market brand like Specialized has a $16,525 bike, how much is the really nice stuff?

    Premier Icon benpinnick
    Subscriber

    Tom hits the nail on the head. If you make the aspirational unattainable you’ll break the market. Therefore a totally different direction is needed to change the direction of travel travel. You need to make aspirational and value. That means significant investment in brand, tech and market leadership. Simply making an equivalently good product much cheaper (relatively easily done) doesn’t change the perception, and that’s what’s doing the damage.

    scotroutes
    Member

    Specialized have had a very bling top end range for a very long time so that’s not new.

    And most customers (especially away from STW) happily pay a lot less than 1/3rd of those and are perfectly happy with their purchases. I don’t think Ebikes change much in that respect.

    Ben, you might know… What is the average price paid for a new bike now?

    Premier Icon sillyoldman
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    if there was an agreed standard for motor fitment, then it’s possible that motors could also be upgraded without trashing a whole bike.

    Ah the ‘agreed standard’ the thing that works so well elsewhere in the bike industry. Even if there is one it will be changed every couple of years.

    To be fair the Shimano mount system has been standardised for all 4 current motors and is to be used for future motors in the foreseeable. Problem for selling motors to upgrade/update is that they need to be programmed at an OEM level to keep them within the law with regard to wheel size and max assisted speed (as that varies for different territories.

    Premier Icon roverpig
    Subscriber

    Some very good points being made here and it brings up a problem with eMTBs that I hadn’t considered before. If you assume that Ben is right and you could make an eMTB that was “only” a grand more than a normal bike, that’s still a fair hike for a lot of people. If we push the notion that you need a motor to go mountain biking then we are going to price a lot of people out of the sport.

    Premier Icon tomhoward
    Subscriber

    What is the average price paid for a new bike now?

    Won’t that be skewed by the BSOs and C2W? I’m talking about the hobby market, where bikes are competing with sailing, MX, skiing etc

    And that’s before we get into the depreciation of bikes. Bad enough as it is, reckon it will be a whole lot worse for expensive ebikes.

    scotroutes
    Member

    bikes are competing with sailing, MX, skiing etc

    All expensive hobbies.

    If we push the notion that you need a motor to go mountain biking then we are going to price a lot of people out of the sport.

    Yep, so keep up the good fight and remind folk that they don’t need Ebikes.

    Premier Icon Paceman
    Subscriber

    If a (relatively) mass market brand like Specialized has a $16,525 bike, how much is the really nice stuff?

    To be fair to Spesh, they’ve always had their S-Works division which is not aimed at mass market. The $16K Levo SL is a limited edition of 250 with SRAM wireless XX1 Eagle AXS groupset etc.
    Their top-spec non S-Works bike is the Expert SL at £7499 with full carbon frame/wheelset, Fox suspension etc, and significantly less than SC Heckler.

    Premier Icon tomhoward
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    All expensive hobbies.

    Exactly. Why would you buy a glorified pushbike when you could have 3 skiing holidays, a boat or an MX bike instead?

    Premier Icon sillyoldman
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    Just looked at Bronson pricing – they’re approx £2K cheaper for broadly similar spec. A big gap but far smaller than I’d have guessed.

    Premier Icon tomhoward
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    To be fair to Spesh,

    It’s not just Spesh, they all do it to a degree, just without the differentiation. When idly browsing, folk don’t think ‘ah well it’s a limited edition with all the bling, there’s a better value one etc etc’ they think ‘SIXTEEN GRAND FOR A BIKE!?!?!?’

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    think that’s more to do with it doing the job better* than its contemporaries rather than blazing a trail though,

    I dunno I test rode a Bronson in 2014? after I’d already ordered my process 153, I was worried id made the wrong choice with the Kona as everyone loved the Bronson, in the end the Bronson was nice but nothing special, when my kona arrived it was a chunk heavier but head & shoulders a better bike than the Santa cruz.

    I was always amazed by how much love the Bronson got considering how far behind many other brands they seemed to be with it.

    Even the mk3 nomad, which was fun, seemed more like an alps bike than an endur o /trail bike, was at least a bit innovative

    Anyway, im sure this heckler will ride fine, but by Jupiter it’s an ugly beast, even for an ebike, that downtube looks wrong, sc usually get the aesthetics right at least!

    Premier Icon benpinnick
    Subscriber

    Ben, you might know… What is the average price paid for a new bike now?

    I only know from us, and its mid-high 2000s. Im not specifically criticising SC – I see it as symptomatic of an industry thats spent beyond its means in terms of marketing/sponsorship etc. for some time and suddenly sees a new cash cow come over the horizon and its trying to claw back some of that investment. That in itself is fine, but ebikes and people powered bikes aren’t on an even footing, so you can’t look at it like wheel sizes or who’s got the most cogs on their cassette. If the market drives to e as the normal, and there’s not a big adjustment in the pricing of the top tier, I think it will cause a decline in cycling offroad as a whole. People just wont invest in a sport where they’re told that in order to keep up with their mates the additional price tag is MORE than the cost of the base model that company sells, e.g. for a base heckler you could buy the same spec bronson, a 5010 AND still have change.

    Premier Icon Paceman
    Subscriber

    “When idly browsing for a new car, folk don’t think ‘ah well it’s a limited edition with all the bling, there’s a better value one etc etc’ they think £125K Audi R8 Coupe is way out of my league, but i’m happy with a Golf GTI for £28K.”

    I’ve been on this forum for nearly two decades… haven’t we been here before when top-spec bikes hit £5K, £8K, £10K etc.

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