• This topic has 294 replies, 88 voices, and was last updated 1 year ago by iainc.
Viewing 40 posts - 241 through 280 (of 295 total)
  • Santa Cruz ebike
  • Premier Icon kiksy
    Free Member

    Pretty much everyone I know who rides started with a relatively cheap hardtail moved on to a better hardtail before getting a full suss .

    That’s kind of my point.

    What’s the cheapest ebike you can get that isn’t just complete tat? £2k? Maybe?

    What’s a decent non ebike? £600?

    The amount of people who just will instantly be turned off when they find out that even the most basic entry level model costs so much I think will be very high. I’m sure many people equate “entry level” to mean “for beginners” as well.

    Premier Icon chiefgrooveguru
    Free Member

    Conversely, I would suggest that if you live somewhere hilly and aren’t keen on pedalling hard, then a ebike is vastly more appealing than a normal bike – it might cost more but its more than justified in the pleasure some people would get from it.

    We are mountain bikers – we like pedalling pretty hard or we wouldn’t have ending up with this hobby! Loads of people like the idea of cruising through the countryside, not getting rad downhill or blowing up their lungs and legs uphill, basically going for a nice walk but going further thanks to wheels and having a motor to make the uphills less horrible.

    Also I’m quite happy pedalling hard and like how much quicker my commutes are, the time saved easily justifies the cost.

    Premier Icon petercook80
    Free Member

    I don’t really see eMTBs ever touted as an entry into the sport, they are usually aimed at existing riders who want to get bigger rides completed in a given time or want to use the bike like an uplift thus enabling them to get more down runs in at a bike park. Bikes aimed at the new rider are the likes of a hardtail or a Bird or Calibre full suspension.

    To be honest if you walk into a shop that sells Santa Cruz or Yeti (or similar) the options for budget entry level bikes are likely to be a bit more limited as they are probably a higher end dealer.

    Premier Icon kiksy
    Free Member

    Another way I’d look at this – how many people can afford a £25k+ car on HP when paying half that does the same job? Many. In comparison a £5k bike isn’t a stretch? No-one’s being put off ‘the sport’ based on E-bike pricing

    I don’t know the figures, but a mountain bike is purely for leisure (unless you commute on it) . A car for many is a necessity.

    I assume most people get into riding through friends and the amount of people who just pick it up individually to be fairly small.

    If your group of friends all have mid range £5k ebikes and you have a £50 Halfords special you found in the shed then your pressure to get an ebike is huge if you want to carry on riding with them.

    I just can’t see how that many people can afford to throw down this kind of money.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Full Member

    If your group of friends all have mid range £5k ebikes and you have a £50 Halfords special you found in the shed then your pressure to get an ebike is huge if you want to carry on riding with them.

    Yeah, I mentioned this previously. Once a couple of folk on my regular crew buy Ebikes, and take them on our joint rides, I’ll likely step back. I’ve no intention/desire to own one and neither do I want to be the last guy up the hill, holding them back.

    I just can’t see how that many people can afford to throw down this kind of money.

    This is STW where TJ is regularly castigated for reminding folk that a £50k salary puts them in the very top %age of earners. I guess there’s enough folk out there that the industry thinks worth chasing.

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Full Member

    Tom’s post was how this £12k model affects perception of the £4k type equivalent, so e-bikes here, or custom road bikes, pretty much the same thing.

    OK ta, well I’d respectfully suggest that’s a load of guff.

    Most casual buyers won’t even be aware there are £12k MTBs and the rest of us will just laugh at them – and at the mugs who buy them.

    We all know there are massive diminishing returns after £2-4k, anyone letting shiny gold stanchions or electric shifting give them gear-based FOMO needs to get out and ride more, as I said before.

    Taking the road bike example, I wouldn’t mind trading in my 2012 Cr1 for something like a TCR Advanced pro disc (the Ultegra model). You could get them for a bit over £2k in the sales last year and I think they even had carbon wheels. Shame I was skint really.

    Anyone spending £12k on a road bike (and I know you easily can) is really chasing the marginal gains, eh?

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Full Member

    Once a couple of folk on my regular crew buy Ebikes, and take them on our joint rides, I’ll likely step back.

    Anecdotally, I’ve heard that when some people in a group get ebikes they tend to splinter off because they’re basically incompatible with group rides.

    I don’t think us luddites will ever struggle to find a non-E group ride.

    Premier Icon jameso
    Full Member

    If your group of friends all have mid range £5k ebikes and you have a £50 Halfords special you found in the shed then your pressure to get an ebike is huge if you want to carry on riding with them.

    Distorted example as it’s not really about price, just bike type but yes to a point the arms-race in riding groups already sells £1.5k wheelsets to roadies, £4k aero bikes to club TTers and £3k FS MTBs to those that don’t keep up downhill and worry about it. E-bikes are no different. So you get a £2k E-MTB on HP or ride to work, or buy S/H. Or your e-biker mates wait for you at the top as most fitter riders do on group rides anyway, or you get fitter by riding with e-bikers. Or ride with other people if bike type is too divisive.

    Capitalism means there’s always a cheap option and adding to the top end doesn’t change any of that.

    Premier Icon tomhoward
    Full Member

    OK ta, well I’d respectfully suggest that’s a load of guff.

    That view came to me from within the bike industry, that halo bikes don’t actually make the mid range stuff look good value to people getting into the sport (or even folk already in, as demonstrated further up the thread), as even the mid range is expensive now, so I’d suggest there’s something to it.

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Full Member

    halo bikes don’t actually make the mid range stuff look good value to people getting into the sport (or even folk already in, as demonstrated further up the thread), as even the mid range is expensive now

    Well that may be a different argument. Are you saying very expensive bikes shift where the “mid range” is? That’s guff too anyway. Low-end is under £1k (£1.5k for full sus maybe), mid range is £2k to £3.5k-ish, over that is high end.

    The existence of a £12k bike doesn’t suddenly make everyone think £6k is mid-range, that’s still a silly amount to spend on a bike for most of us.

    Does it make you think that though Tom?

    Premier Icon jameso
    Full Member

    Mean/mode/median.. more top end / £12k bikes only shift the median sense of mid-range price.

    If anything, halo bikes like this SC make bikes using the same motor or build from other brands look better value – good value is relative to the competition. Mid-range to ‘the industry’ really is average selling price and customers decide that. If it goes up then the marketing is working : )

    Premier Icon tomhoward
    Full Member

    To me, where something sits in a range is based on the spec of the bike. Thing is the spec levels have been staying the same but pricing has crept up with the super bling stuff. I’ve seen plenty of people complaining that 3-4K+ bikes now are NX, even SX and sub deore kit, generic wheels, OEM ‘only’ suss and own brand finishing kit. That, to me isn’t midrange, it’s entry level. Better specs are available from the direct brands of course, but newcomers aren’t going to see those, as they aren’t in their local shop, or people don’t want the hassle of building the bike/sending it back if wrong/broken.

    Premier Icon jameso
    Full Member

    3-4K+ bikes now are NX, even SX and sub deore kit, generic wheels, OEM ‘only’ suss and own brand finishing kit.

    Some E-FS bikes below 3.5k yes. Entry level E-FS is £3-4k. They’re expensive products for sure.

    Better specs are available from the direct brands of course, but newcomers aren’t going to see those, as they aren’t in their local shop, or people don’t want the hassle of building the bike/sending it back if wrong/broken.

    Online sales are big for all bikes already though and almost everyone shops and researches online before going in-store now, so Canyon or Cube likely to set the value levels for anyone looking for an E-FS. Or they go to an e-bike specialist who will have a full range of price points covered. Those going into a shop as a first step are more likely to be leisure-hybrid (or E-HT as an ‘SUV’) buyers – they’re the newcomers. They’re not buying E-FS at £4k.

    I don’t see anything suggesting that E-FS is bringing new riders into the sport or that £4k E-FS alienates anyone. I did something quite general on this for work recently – where the buyers are coming in from and how the price gap-jump between non-E and E-bikes is in different categories, how E-bikes change product demand by product category. E-FS is selling to riders who had a fairly mid-high end MTB already. People don’t really ‘get into the sport’ that directly, seems more fluid than that.

    Premier Icon santacoops
    Full Member

    Was at the new STIF shop today and witnessed the ebike, spent 2 mins next to it, it was ok. There were much more interesting bikes there. Hopefully they will bring in other bikes along with Santa Cruz, its a SC showroom at the moment (for bikes). Nice place to be though.

    Premier Icon stevedoc
    Free Member

    I cant believe a company releases a bike and this place implodes is to utter rubbish.

    Some bikes cost more than others some cars cost more than others and some people have more money than others,..through choice or luck.
    If someone likes something they will buy it even if there is something different on the market that is cheaper or better.
    Far to much bike/car/prestige hate here. Rule one of life “dont be a dick” if someones out on a bike who cares what make it is,if they are happy thats all that matters

    Premier Icon santacoops
    Full Member

    Thats to my point stevedoc, just thought it was a bike with a motor when i saw it. A few people surrounding it. I just liked the look of a bike i could own next, which wouldn’t be that bike.

    Premier Icon stevedoc
    Free Member

    As I said before i think its nice the colour is nice too, I wouldn’t buy one yet as I feel I have no need for assistance but in the future I might, in the future I might want to drive a 8 year old car and ride a bike costing twice that, I wouldn’t care what people thought. I might however need help getting one on the roof of the car..

    Premier Icon santacoops
    Full Member

    Fair. Horses for courses right!

    Premier Icon Poopscoop
    Full Member

    Im talking more about e mountain bikes here rather than ebikes in general.

    There are plenty of “good value” ebikes.

    The trouble comes when they are compared to good value NON ebikes.

    There is a personality crisis going on within ebike manufacture and marketing at the moment. Partly industry made and partly due to some buyers assumptions.

    I think things will clarify over the next few years. It will probably suit the industry and the buyers (eventually) when there is a bit more “space” between bikes and ebikes. There is a bigger difference between them than we like to generally acknowledge at the moment.

    I know many won’t agree with that though.

    Premier Icon chiefgrooveguru
    Free Member

    “There is a bigger difference between them than we like to generally acknowledge at the moment.

    I know many won’t agree with that though.”

    Have you spent much time riding ebikes?

    I’ve done 1600 miles on my Levo and I’d say that there is less difference between eMTBs and normal MTBs than most people think.

    Premier Icon santacoops
    Full Member

    Thats what i’ve noticed chiefgrooveguru. Emountainbikes have split the market and as such, i’m interested in one strain. Not the e style. I may well pick it up when my knees are knackered and so, to my mind, more power to those that keep that industry going. I’ll get a top bike worth it’s salt in that area one day. At the moment, i feel, the industry aren’t forcing anything on anyone. They are giving options. You can buy what you feel like riding or what best suits your style. Its a shame these things fall into willy waving though. Down to high price tags i suppose.

    Premier Icon Paceman
    Full Member

    Once a couple of folk on my regular crew buy Ebikes, and take them on our joint rides, I’ll likely step back.

    Anecdotally, I’ve heard that when some people in a group get ebikes they tend to splinter off because they’re basically incompatible with group rides.

    I don’t think us luddites will ever struggle to find a non-E group ride.”

    I do both at the moment and enjoy them equally for different reasons. The distance, terrain and elevation you can cover on your e-mtb in a two hour ride when you only have limited time is amazing, either solo or as an e-mtb group (and more of a workout than you might think). For me this is great as family commitments mean I just can’t do the all day rides I used to and often only have an hour two max to get my MTB fix.

    However, riding with my buddies on their non e-bikes is also great (as it has been for nearly three decades). Using my e-mtb in eco mode with the assistance dialled down is not very different at all from riding a normal FS bike (albeit a little heavier, but that adds stability and a great suspension feel in my opinion).

    The new lighter weight / lower power e-mtb’s are only going to close this gap even further.

    Premier Icon daveylad
    Free Member

    I guess you can get a 7k bike for about 4k these days on cycle to work, I haven’t used the scheme before but the new limit could make this interesting. Around 4k is the most I want to spend on a pushbike before I start to bawk a little.

    Premier Icon argee
    Full Member

    I know a fair few in my work who are after ebikes and the C2W scheme is having the 1k limit lifted, unfortunately it’s moving to 2.5k and the reality is that there isn’t much you can get for that, no full suspension ebikes, only hardtails and with very poor kit compared to normal bikes. For the actual commuters looking for an ebike, they’ll be able to get that type of hardtail commuter that’ll do the job, but a lot of folk wanting anything remotely weekendish will struggle.

    Premier Icon jam-bo
    Full Member

    ^^^

    Does abusing cycle to work scheme to buy overpriced ebikes constitute tax evasion?

    I wonder how long the scheme will last now the limits are lifted.

    Premier Icon singlespeedstu
    Full Member

    I do both at the moment and enjoy them equally for different reasons.

    Very much this for me too.
    Still ride my non ebike both with friends and on my own.
    Also ride my ebike with friends and on my own, but generally don’t ride ebike when most other people in the group are on non e.

    Premier Icon convert
    Full Member

    no full suspension ebikes

    My heart bleeds for them. ‘Weekendish” toys don’t merit a tax break. Anyone who has seen the state of an A&E ward in the last few years can attest to the fact that that there are better things to spend the nations resources on. Anyone who does is quite frankly a See you next Tuesday in my book.

    Premier Icon daveylad
    Free Member

    Pretty sure it’s an unlimited limit, depending on how your employer implements it.
    I must say as a higher rate tax payer it will be nice to get something back for a change.

    Premier Icon Paceman
    Full Member

    My heart bleeds for them. ‘Weekendish” toys don’t merit a tax break.

    Compared with many other tax breaks / loopholes the privileged few seem to benefit from under the current regime, I’d say any scheme that gets more people cycling has got to be a good thing (whatever the bike is).

    Premier Icon convert
    Full Member

    I must say as a higher rate tax payer it will be nice to get something back for a change.

    I think I can say as a fellow high rate tax payer I wish you rough rectal treatment with some medieval implement when that’s all the NHS have left to use and you fall off your shiny weekendsih ‘weapon’.

    Premier Icon daveylad
    Free Member

    I’ll post a pic up of my 40% discounted ebike when I get it. Just for you. Hope you enjoy.

    Premier Icon convert
    Full Member

    I’ll post a pic up of my 40% discounted ebike when I get it. Just for you. Hope you enjoy.

    If you use it for commuting for work crack on. If it’s only for dicking about in woods I wish you a freak ebike electrocution. Nothing wrong with dicking about in woods or doing it on an ebike or any other expensive shiny thing. Bt thinking the nation owes it to you to pay for a portion makes you a grade 1 throbber.

    Premier Icon endoverend
    Full Member

    Having worked in a store that dealt with CycletoWork, I can assure you that probably more than 80% of customers buying any type of bike on the scheme have no intention of ever riding that bike to work. Have always thought that it was dubious right from the start…but then ultimately if it makes the employee happier and fitter then it’s still a benefit to the employer right?…..and an ebike is a perfect tool to commute to work on if they ever did use the scheme as intended, arrive less sweaty and all.

    Premier Icon whatyadoinsucka
    Free Member

    The tax savings will still only be available on a grand a year so £400 (high rate tax payer) in the past it was getting a bike higher priced than the voucher that was the problem. Ie £1000 voucher maximum rrp bike you could buy was £1000, not in theory you can use your £1k c2w voucher towards a £7k bike, by you’ll only save on the voucher..

    I’ll be getting a dirt jump bike when my current c2w expires in September and I can get a new voucher

    Premier Icon convert
    Full Member

    it’s still a benefit to the employer right?

    At a net loss to the treasury (i.e. you and me and everyone else who uses the nhs, drives on a road, expects a state pension, feels those a bit less fortunate might need some assistance etc etc) not the employer.

    I think Ebikes are brilliant for commuting – my wife uses a dutch style ebike every day for exactly that. For actually riding to work.

    Premier Icon tomhoward
    Full Member

    Pretty sure the vouchers can be any value now (up to the employer)

    Premier Icon daveylad
    Free Member

    For sure. Whack the pricing into a c2w calculator shows a 7k bike for just over 4k, depending on employer. Ride it to work though? No chance. Will stick to the car.
    I’m sure the chap above will get all red faced and wish increasing bizarre injuries on me. How very amusing!

    Premier Icon endoverend
    Full Member

    At a net loss to the treasury….

    I completely agree with you….the whole concept of the scheme is dubious if analysed in light of a minority using it as intended, one can only assume that the government’s never really looked into it… You’d be amazed how many times we’d have to explain to numpties why it is not legit to be buying their kids bikes on the scheme for example, or a full on downhill bike on the pretence that yes I suppose one could ride it to work, yeah right. Mostly people don’t understand why they shouldn’t use it this way and see it as an entitled work discount.

    Premier Icon chiefgrooveguru
    Free Member

    Since I got it, over 95% of my commutes have been done on my £5k eMTB that I bought through work. It really is excellent across a hilly town with potholes, bad drivers, winter weather and so on. It’s also my main MTB now.

    Premier Icon endoverend
    Full Member

    Above is a brilliant use of the scheme Chief…now if we can just ban cars from town centres, get safe routes to get to work/ school, on bikes that can double up for weekend pleasure then we all win ultimately….could be the future.

Viewing 40 posts - 241 through 280 (of 295 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.