Riding two abreast on a two-lane road: yay or nay? (video)

We are actually not far apart as we both think

Am I about to witness an agreement on STW?

I am surprised you don’t know this if you claim to be an accredited instructor.

i wondered how long it would be before you either doubted my credentials or told me how to do my job 😆

The reasons I ask if you think there is enough room for 2 cars and a bike across the width of the road is simple. if there is not then the cyclist needs to make that clear by taking the lane to force cars to overtake properly.

is just nonsense.

take the secondary position, take the lane if you need to do something.

that’s all there is to it.

Right – found the quote

John Franklin, Cyclecraft, The Stationery Office (2004).

In certain situations it may be safer to use all the space that your side of the road or lane allows, i.e. take a position in the centre of the lane or your side of the road. This may be necessary if there is not enough room for cars to overtake you without forcing you too close to parked cars or the side of the road.

Direct quote from cyclecraft

so whether there is enough room in that situation for two cars and a bike is cruicil to your road positioning. I do not believe there is enough room for two cars and a bike so I would follow the cyclecraft guidance and take the centre of the inside lane

Trail Monkey
“is just nonsense.

take the secondary position, take the lane if you need to do something.

that’s all there is to it.”

+1.

though I agree a lot with what TJ is saying riders need to “own the road” more even more so when the rider can keeping with the traffic speed.

But then just refuse and argue that there isn’t a secondary postion and no need to be it that postion is just been silly to put it nicely.

Yes I said .5 of a meter as min, it still fair enough out to avoid the crap at the side of the road and the draining covers etc.
And to me thats not in the gutter.

right, in certain circumstances. if there are parked cars around then you should take the lane in advance of pulling out ( an open doors width ) around the parked cars. as for the cars overtaking, it says this may be neccesary and even then that means on narrower roads and lanes not on wide open highways ffs. seriously, how many roads do you know that have lanes wide enough for cars to safely pass a bike in the secondary without straddling the middle ? not very many, in which case are you going to ride around all day in the middle of the road ? 🙄

bikeability training is available for adults too tj. get some. it sounds like you need it.

So you do not agree with cyclecraft then trailmonkey? And yo claim to be an acceditied instructor.

Read it again

John Franklin, Cyclecraft, The Stationery Office (2004).

In certain situations it may be safer to use all the space that your side of the road or lane allows, i.e. take a position in the centre of the lane or your side of the road. This may be necessary if there is not enough room for cars to overtake you without forcing you too close to parked cars or the side of the road.

so exactly that situation.

Yes that is true TJ

BUT as I said BEFORE
“Because the primary riding postion can result in some inconvenience[/i] to following drivers, it is reasonable to ride further to the left when this could help others, so long as your own saety is not thereby impaired. At these times you should adapt the secondary riding position

This is also from the book Cycle craft by John Franklin.

and that is when trafic is traveling faster than the rider and no oncoming pack cars juntions etc.

you need to read futher along

so long as your own safety is not thereby impaired.

riding in the witin 50 cm of the curb impairs your safety. full stop. Its too close. riding within arms length of the kerb in that situation impairs your safety as there is not enough room for a car to pass safely

Love this. 7 odd pages that boil down to debating the virtues of being technically correct but maybe squished, vs possibly a bit too submissive on the road, but getting to ride another day.

Happens on a busy dual carriageway near me regularly; cyclists exercising their legal right to ride on a fast dual carriageway. One had to get scraped of off the front of a sleepy lorry driver’s Scania the other day; I bet the fact that he was technically in the right was a real comfort to his bereaved family. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valour.

v8 – the road in question is 30 mph limit.

The reasons I ask if you think there is enough room for 2 cars and a bike across the width of the road is simple. if there is not then the cyclist needs to make that clear by taking the lane to force cars to overtake properly.

So yes – the width of the road is crucial to your road positioning. I am surprised you don’t know this if you claim to be an accredited instructor.
this and this

212
When passing motorcyclists and cyclists, give them plenty of room (see Rules 162-167). If they look over their shoulder it could mean that they intend to pull out, turn right or change direction. Give them time and space to do so.

so however much of the lane you take up they should be in the other one
My main concern is the reduced visibility to a car behind who may or may not have seen you and then they may be too close to you and too crap to fit in the lane [ if there is infact enough room to overtake you – there is not as per the highway code pic. In essence do you want to force the [ potentially] irate, angry, crap driver person to overtake you in another lane or do you want to allow them to squeeze past with limited space and and the car behind the van who may not even have seen you yet etc.

TandemJeremy – Member
Right – found the quote

John Franklin, Cyclecraft, The Stationery Office (2004).

Is everything in print an AUTHORITY?

Ooh he’s got killfile on 🙁 Easy to win arguments when you don’t have to respond to half the opposing points eh? 🙄

So you do not agree with cyclecraft then trailmonkey?

yup, it makes sense to me. it’s you that’s talking nonsense not john franklin.

And yo claim to be an acceditied instructor.

yeah i’d have a word with those idiots at the ctc for passing me.

stay safe out there.

TandemJeremy – Member
v8 – the road in question is 30 mph limit.

Being hit by a Scania truck with a sleepy driver at 30mph probably hurts a bit though.

Can you read the quote trailmonkey?

trailmonkey

the only reason for the cyclist not to be 1m from the curb is because he’s about to turn, pass a junction, pass a parked car etc.

the width of the road, oncoming traffic or snow white and the seven dwarves have nothing to do with it.

John Franklin, Cyclecraft, The Stationery Office (2004).

In certain situations it may be safer to use all the space that your side of the road or lane allows, i.e. take a position in the centre of the lane or your side of the road. This may be necessary if there is not enough room for cars to overtake you without forcing you too close to parked cars or the side of the road.

So actually cyclecraft quite clearly contradicts you. If the road is not wide enough to allow a car to over take you safely then you take the line – simple, clear and concise

Fair enough not a direct comparison, but I don’t think I’d like to be hit up the chuff by a Scania doing 30mph either. (or 25, or 35… 😉 )

(oh and by the way, it wasn’t obvious why the lorry swerved, it was certainly for no reason that was within my vision. Cup of tea/crotch interface, maybe?)

Oh please, agree to differ before this makes 300!!

Ooh he’s got killfile on Easy to win arguments when you don’t have to respond to half the opposing points eh?

It’s the debating equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and singing “LaLaLaLaLa”

Weak.

that is true TJ “own saftety is not thereby impaired”
will all I got to say is you have a very high level/aweness of you own safety and low regard to other road users.
“riding in the witin 50 cm”

Never said WITIN, I said Minimum
which is more like 75cm in practice.

oh and by the way, it wasn’t obvious why the lorry swerved, it was certainly for no reason that was within my vision. Cup of tea/crotch interface, maybe?

aye – you said that 🙂

I’ve jumped from page1 to page 7, can someone let me know if the intervening pages are just the same apart from tj arguing the same point with different people?

teamhurtmore – Member
Oh please, agree to differ before this makes 300!!

If we can get a racist slant in here somewhere it might just get closed…

I’m gonna have to jump in to defend TJ here. (god forgive me) Franklin deliberately calls it ‘primary’ to reinforce the idea that cyclists have a right to be there. This thread shows why he needed to do that. It isn’t a position I normally ride in, but it is soemthing you are entitled to do. If the road is narrow enough to encouarge a dangerous overtake if you are in secondary, then primary is the place to be. TJ’s case is perfectly sound and I suspect if anyone else was making it there wouldn’t be such a reaction on here.
Having said that, with respect to the vid: Bbob had it right earlier when he pointed out that two abreast really does antagonize people & I wouldn’t do it even if you occupy the same amount of road space. I also agree with v8ninety. Dual carriageways just aren’t bike friendly. I may have a right to be there but anyone with any sense would avoid them, and if I have to go on them I make sure I go fast and spend as little timeon them as I can. Pootling two abreast on a dual shows a shocking lack of awareness of the hazards involved.

will all I got to say is you have a very high level/aweness of you own safety and low regard to other road users.

Yup -I accept that. My safety comes before thier convenience every time
I have said that I will pull left, sit up, coast and wave cars thru when it is safe for them to pass if I have held them up – and I thank cars drivers that wait behind me.

Woody – Member
I’ve jumped from page1 to page 7, can someone let me know if the intervening pages are just the same apart from tj arguing the same point with different people?

The force is with you young forum member…

TJ is correct.

Cu-chicken.

nealglover – Member

Ooh he’s got killfile on Easy to win arguments when you don’t have to respond to half the opposing points eh?

It’s the debating equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and singing “LaLaLaLaLa”

Weak.
Is that cynic al whining? I ignore him for good reasons.

In certain situations it may be safer to use all the space that your side of the road or lane allows, i.e. take a position in the centre of the lane or your side of the road. This may be necessary if there is not enough room for cars to overtake you without forcing you too close to parked cars or the side of the road.

So it’s not an absolute rule that must be adhered to at all times then, just something to consider?

Woody – Member

I’ve jumped from page1 to page 7, can someone let me know if the intervening pages are just the same apart from tj arguing the same point with different people?
Others agree with me as well but basically …………..

its done to death for sure now.

I CBA with the more technical arguments, but I just want to say…

**** the motorists, they’re giving us asthma, air and noise pollution, obesity, out of town shopping centres and Jeremy Clarkson.

Cyclists give nothing but joy, love and firm toned legs, and thats a beautiful thing. If they can drive sat two abreast taking up the whole lane all the **** ing time, then so can we cyclists.

It’s not self-righteousness, it’s just righteousness, and we are the people of the future, those mother **** just need to get that into their motorised skulls.

😈

Is that cynic al whining? I ignore him for good reasons

My point still stands.

TandemJeremy – Member
Is that cynic al whining? I ignore him for good reasons.

Can someone quote the following to him?

TJ – I’ve made various valid points that no one else on here has made, in a civil fashion. Are your “good reasons” that you have no response, like on the hub thread?

Thanks

*whimpers*

Can all the pro 2 abreasters vouch that they have never got upset with caravans or tractors when they are impeded in their cars.

As a pro 2 abreaster, I’m quite happy to admit that I have got irritated with caravans and tractors (and more significantly traction engines). The difference being that I don’t feel the need to cut them up to prove some sort of point, and they have all significantly held me up – in the case of the traction engine I was stuck in a massive queue behind it for ~15 minutes, passing numerous places he could have pulled over. If the cyclists in the original video made any difference at all to other drivers’ journey times (which I doubt – even those who’s driving was poor enough that they didn’t manage to smoothly change lanes and overtake were only delayed a little in getting to the back of the next queue), it was only a handful of seconds.

It is interesting scary who I find myself aligned with on this thread (I’m gutted that TJ didn’t mention me as one with the same POV). Note to the haters who think TJ is just arguing again – in this case he’s far from standing alone. Though as somebody who quite often agrees with TJ, I do find it rather frustrating the way in such threads get reduced to pro or anti TJ – if only he didn’t “cry wolf” quite so much to give the haters ammo (I hope you’re reading and digesting this point, TJ).

Geebus. Not rocket science is it really? As a road cyclist:

1. Priority is your safety.
2. If you can reduce inconvenience to other road users without compromising your safety, do so.

If you feel safe getting squeezed by an overtake because you’re close to the kerb, that’s absolutely fine. Likewise if you do not, you are perfectly within your rights to take the lane if you feel safer doing so. Cyclists generally get sideswiped or cut off, not rear ended which tells its own story but it’s your life, your risk, and your decision.

Why can’t we all just get along?

Ta aracer – I just pulled out a few randoms who agreed.

I get annoyed with all inconsiderate people on the roads.