😆 Late night campaigning eh TJ? Get yourself to bed matey. Have you been on the beer?

How about another poll…

How many people feel the need to have this much space when being overtaken?

Hopefully you can guess my answer…

How many people feel the need to have this much space when being overtaken?

Don’t need, but definitely like. And I do try to give cyclists this much room when I pass them in the car.

As mentioned earlier 3 feet / 1 metre is the legal minimum in many US states and the more cycle-friendly European countries. I’d love to see them bring that in here!

So.. what about when there are lots and lots of bikes? Like the A38 northwards out of Bristol at rush hour? If all the bikes stayed out form the kerb then no driver would ever be able to pass, and all the traffic would have to trundle along at the speed of a slow cycling winching up a hill.

I’m sure as motorists many of you would find that unacceptable.

GrahamS – Member
Don’t need, but definitely like. And I do try to give cyclists this much room when I pass them in the car.

Yes but it’s need we’re talking about is it not? I.e. what is reasonable to demand from other road users?

that point, cynic-al, was one i couldn’t really be bothered to debate about two days ago. 😆

i’m with you, for the record. and yes, i do ride my bike. on the road. many thousands of miles in and around Central London.

problem is all we have all been passed and probably a few times every 10 miles on our commute by someone who almost clips you/passes too close.
I dont think anyone actually needs this much room as per the pic but on many/some roads it is not possible to pass safely without putting part/some/all/most of your car on the wrong side of the road. This does not stop motorists from trying to do this in their lane so sometimes you have to position your bike so they realise they will need to do this – this annoys them but it does not endanger them or me.
al it is reasonable for me to expect that other road users will not endanger me and be considerate of my needs and do as the highway code says about what they should do /how they should behave. Experience has taught me that this wont happen so I need to make it happen on certain stretches and look after myself.

i dont see any accord being reached here and I think most people sort of agree [ position depends on the road and sometimes we would hug the kerb to let folk past [ sometimes i even go on the pavement to allow this tbh if the pavement is clear].
If it is safe yes i get out of their way to let them past and wave to thank them for waiting.

Molgrips I dont think anyone is suggesting bikes should just pootle down the middle in some sort of solo mass action /road bocking manner but are you really suggesting every car driver gives every cyclist enough space ?

How many cyclists dont use roads because of how dangerous they are ? they are dangerous because of how car drivers drive rather than because the highway code or roads themselves are dangerous.

if all road users were safe and courteous then we would have no need for this debate and yes sometimes some cyclists are idiots too.

Its the f ecktards that ‘buzz’ you even when the oncoming lane is totally devoid of all traffic that really boil my piss.

beautiful sunny day down south , but do i risk a bimble on the RB when every man and his dog are rushing around trying to find the perfect last minute present for cousin johnny, who they secretly despise?

Try riding further out into the road to make them overtake properly? *ducks and hides*

Junkyard – couldn’t agree more, although for voting purposes that could mean my vote is now split with 1/3 in each camp

TJ – here’s a challenge, bet you can’t stay hidden til Monday

they tell horse riders to ride side by side in the highway code

Dickyboy – Member

TJ – here’s a challenge, bet you can’t stay hidden til Monday

*peeks round corner*

99, 100 – Ready or not here I come

if all road users were safe and courteous then we would have no need for this debate and yes sometimes some cyclists are idiots too.

And to go waaaaay back to the OP, that’s what those cyclists riding two abreast are, they’re discourteous idiots.

99, 100 – Ready or not here I come

savouring mental image of TJ poised ready to post

stalking TJ – hadn’t really thought this through had I 🙁

And to go waaaaay back to the OP, that’s what those cyclists riding two abreast are, they’re discourteous idiots.

If the drivers were safe and courteous, they’d be thanking them for taking up less of the road, meaning they have to spend less time in the right hand lane. The only possible argument for the cyclists being discourteous comes from drivers who are discourteous and unsafe.

Junkyard – Member
al it is reasonable for me to expect that other road users will not endanger me and be considerate of my needs and do as the highway code says about what they should do /how they should behave. Experience has taught me that this wont happen so I need to make it happen on certain stretches and look after myself.

of course – but it’s like it always has to be as per the pic.

only read the OP and skipped the 12 pages of angst, is this an official ‘TJ-thread’ yet?

*checks thread*
Yep TeeJ is still talking and Junky managed to get his misplet drivel in before the 12pm cut off yesterday.
*Happily gets on with own day*

Wanna join in the game of hide and seek TSY? – dickyboy is “it”

Its the f ecktards that ‘buzz’ you even when the oncoming lane is totally devoid of all traffic that really boil my piss.

Maybe they are the ones that would have taken you straight out if you’d been in the middle of the lane 🙂

Nice work there molgrips 😀

Junky managed to get his misplet drivel in before the 12pm cut off

harsh….but fair and nice msispeeling yourself sir/maam. Your attention to detail in your mockery is appreciated

al it just depends i can generally live with 1 metre but if it is windy, crap road and a 60 mph limit and an artic truck overtaking i would like a lot more tbh and much more like the picture

I did it accidentally and thought it somehow added to it 🙂

Wanna join in the game of hide and seek TSY? – dickyboy is “it”

Gotcha

Its the f ecktards that ‘buzz’ you even when the oncoming lane is totally devoid of all traffic that really boil my piss.

100% agree I just dont get why they do it ! The other lane is totally free there is no traffic why pass so close !

The other lane is totally free there is no traffic why pass so close !

A challenge?

scu98rkr – Member

“Its the f ecktards that ‘buzz’ you even when the oncoming lane is totally devoid of all traffic that really boil my piss.”

100% agree I just dont get why they do it ! The other lane is totally free there is no traffic why pass so close !

Because you are sitting in at the edge of the road and they see you but don’t notice you / don’t see yo as a hazard therefore don’t avoid you – the answer is to ride further out in the road – it happens far far less then

xyz wrote “Dont get me started on how the right approach to a left hander on a motorbike positioned near the white line is the correct way either. The number of people that cut the white line on their exit of the bend as you are approaching it makes this option even more dangerous if other drivers arent driving correctly. Another example of what many believe to be the safest option actually being more dangerous.. depending on how other road users drive. They dont point this out in the motorcycle test/bikesafe course.”

TJ wrote: “100% wrong and showing your inexperience Riding out on the white line on a left hander allows you to see further – I would often go even further across the white line to see further often half way between the white line and the wrong side of the road.

Because you can see further you are safer as yo can see idiots in cars coming earlier. Obviously you alter your line depending on what you can see but always go as wide as you can on entry to get the best visibility”

Wrong Jeremy! Riding down Loch Ness and many other highland twisties proves this when you are approaching a tight left hander.Lets say you are going 50mph,eyes on the vanishing point,and the driver cutting the line coming out of the corner on the other side is going 60mph (maybe more) with a possible impact of 110mph+ waiting within less than 0.25 of a second reaction time? You have reaction times to cope with this unforseeable mistake to steer a motorbike out of danger? Not a chance in hell. Theres many moments where you have positioned yourself as well as possible.. but you soon realize that with the speed they were going along with the tightness of the corner.. the time it takes to shift position when they people are already a foot over OUR side makes it a very close call.To the point of me now not taking that option at all on some roads.

I will give you a good example that you and many others will know. Riding out of Strathpeffer towards Contin you will be going through a 40zone before it gets up to 60mph on the way to Contin. If you remember, theres a tight left hander just before you get out of the 40 zone. If you position close to the line approaching this corner you would soon see how fast cars appear from the Contin direction.If i approach this corner positioned correctly around 20-25mph, i have on more than one occasion had to suddenly move due to cars crossing the line. Its the correct position and even at half the speed limit its a danger if the other driver isnt playing ball. I find slightly to the right of central the best option in this case. Not close in to the gutter as i might hit a walker or cyclist. I ride the way i want to on coners like these through experience. My experiences show that such corners are a greater threat when driving “to the book” when using the head to look at the dangers and possibilities from all angles makes more sense.Yes, the majority of the time we should all ride left handers the way we are taught but this is an example of why we shouldnt.

I agree with the positioning and being able to see further (also letting the other driver see you sooner) and being able to get back in sooner.. but like ive just said, its not always going to be like that because when people break the law by cutting corners on exits on crazy tight bends.. you soon find out how close things can get. Theres no reaction time. Put the two speeds of each vehicle together, the severity of the corner,your reaction time,the mistake of the other driver and put it into practice Jeremy and get back to me before you try proving me wrong.

For the motorbike arguement: If oncoming drivers stayed on their side of the road,yes.. i would be 100%wrong.(see,this is where you jumped to conclusions before reading what i wrote carefully)

” I would often go even further across the white line to see further often half way between the white line and the wrong side of the road”

Yes, fine on some roads but try it on the approach to the corner im talking about. You would be mad to. Even staying on your own side next to the central line is a threat. Many rides out of the town it will feel the right thing to do but its when you have another vehicle on the line that you realize its not worth it. Its a great example of a corner and im glad that you know it.

Still wrong martin.

I put this into practice all the time – its the police way, its the advanced rider way.

You always go wide on the entrance to a corner to get better visibility. always. No exceptions. You are not positioning yourself early enough or going wide enough if you are getting into this situation. Go wide early you can see further.

according to you the police are wrong, the IAM are wrong

For the motorbike arguement: If oncoming drivers stayed on their side of the road,yes.. i would be 100%wrong.(see,this is where you jumped to conclusions before reading what i wrote carefully)

Nope – you do not understand the correct road positing.

If you position yourself properly you can see the car that is going to come over the centre line earlier so you have plenty of time to avoid it

and put it into practice Jeremy and get back to me before you try proving me wrong.

I have done for hundreds of thousands of miles over 35 years.

I once followed a plod at speed down a twisty road. It was very interesting to see that he actually pulled out onto the wrong side of the road approaching some corners to improve his sight lines.

Its not wrong in certain circumstances. You know the example of road i mentioned yet you would disagree about keeping in a little more from the centre line on that left hander after me explaining my reasons for doing so.. regardless of early positioning (that i always do anyway to avoid making a pigs ear of the job ahead)

If i drive that road and have far more room between the vehicles i`m passing by staying in a little bit more from the normal police/IAM recommended position.. i will always choose to ride it this way as its the safest. On this length,width and radius of left hander i have proved to myself that i am safest when closer to central position. Again, this is due to cars arriving on the bend about 35-40mph but ocasionally cutting the white line. Its such a tight corner that its safer to not have to try and move position as quickly as possible.. but to be central in the first place. Yes, it sounds wrong but putting it into practice proves its the safest.This also proves yet again there is no right or wrong as the reason for better road positioning is to ultimately avoid collisions. To be seen,yes. But the whole idea is to drop the number of accidents.This is what it all boils down to. The main aim of road positioning is not to be seen. Its to cut down accidents. To be seen earlier is high up the list but No1 is to cut down accidents and deaths on the roads regardless of being seen a fraction of a second earlier.Agree on this at least lol.

So the question is in this arguement:

Is it more important to be seen a fraction of a second earlier?

Or is it more important to avoid the contact by NOT having to make frantic position changes in the first place?

At 20-25mph Jeremy.. it is honestly a better option on this type or bend.Try it.Or at least think about the situations i have been in if a car cuts the line. You will probably be there for the Puffer so worth a thought on the passing.

Thats me finished with this. Its totally Off topic. Sorry folks!

No – the main aim is to be able to see further – thats why the wide line. See further yo are safer.

I can’t think exactly of the bend in question but I would always go to the white line and often beyond it – simply so I can see further. I cannot think of any shape of corner where a narrow entry would be better – I have never seen one.

“I once followed a plod at speed down a twisty road. It was very interesting to see that he actually pulled out onto the wrong side of the road approaching some corners to improve his sight lines”

If the line is broken then he is using the other side to his advantage. It was an unbroken line then its obviously not allowed but not against the law to cross broken lines. The same as broken lines with the orange painted sections you often see around the approach to junctions.Some people believe you cannot drive on the orange sections with hatching.. you can,if its safe to do so.

The police,IAM etc dont spend millions on helping drivers to ultimately see each other sooner. They want to,first and foremost,cut down deaths and accidents and to help them achieve this, riding in the positions we have been taught helps us all out a great deal in most situations but not all. So if i believe that not having to make sudden movements on the bars when there no need to on sharp corners.. i will do so. If its going to help me stay safer on that type of corner i`m sure they would rather i was safe and felt safer than doing what they say and having to deal with other problems in the process. Its crazy i know but we have to do whats best when other drivers arent following the rules. On tight corners when drivers are cutting them.. there are good reasons to not ride the way we have been taught. It might sound bonkers but once it happens repeatedly on certain corners you soon get the jist of why riding the way you were taught isnt always the safest option.

Martin – Its not just what I have been taught – Its how I have ridden for hundreds of thousands of miles. I suspect you are missing something – either not getting into position early enough, not looking far enough ahead or not being able to turn quickly enough. Countersteering perhaps?

IIRC you have a mate who is a advanced / police trained rider or something – have a chat with him perhaps

Of course you need to adapt your riding position to what you see – but I simply do not recognise the situation you describe – I have never seen it as far as I can tell. You need to be flexible and adapt to the situation.

Google streetview the corner so I can see it?

Well this is it. “not being able to turn quickly enough”

If a car cuts the line and i have to countersteer aggressively as soon as i make eye contact with it then why dont i just position myself a little closer to the centre of my side of the road on the tighter corners?

Right, i`m off to get some nosh!