Just a few of the folk who understand defensive riding

one of your weakest efforts TJ go to the bottom of the class

PS just because I don’t agree with you doesn’t make me wrong

I found that while i was looking for another thread from months back where i posted about riding two abreast out on country roads where two cars,both going 60mph minimum towards each other could arrive on a bend at the same time… just as one of them approaches a cyclist.

If the cyclist/two abreast cyclists are riding around 15mph and the cars are hurtling towards each other with a 120mph impact waiting around the corner.. do you think the driver on the cyclists side of the road will automatically choose to hit the car head on or plough into the cyclists? If this happens,the driver will try his hardest to brake (if he has time to do so) but without a doubt he will probably be braking towards the cyclist and not the other vehicle. To swerve from the biggest danger is what i would consider a natural reaction for anyone.. not to mention that the cyclist would barely be noticed in the great scheme of things when two cars are about to collide without any warning.

Next time any of you two abreast riders/gutter dodgers are out on the country roads in the car.. consider the above and ask yourself if two abreast/gutter dodging is always the best policy. Youll find it isnt. Todays topic is talking about an incident on a straight road in a 30? zone. I explained why i chose to ride close to the kerb in this situation (sleepy gits and text messagers)and i think its the best option. In 30 zones i would say most cars seem to be averaging around 35mph these days.. If i ride at 15mph, i dont want to get in the path of a snoozer or text messager hitting me with a 20mph impact. I think ill stick to getting swiped from the side and deal with the falling squirrels.

Motorcycle riding and road positioning is all very well but we cant forget that although it is two wheels,the speeds arent the same.The above instance wouldnt be a problem to the cars as the motorcycle would be travelling around the same speed. Totally different ballgame. Motorcycle safety awareness can help with cyclists in some ways but we cant put everything that they taught us during the test into practice on a bicycle. The above proves it. Oldgits accident most likely proved it for him,too! (hope yer well,old git)

edit: why do commas mess up my font? Grr.

Can all the pro 2 abreasters vouch that they have never got upset with caravans or tractors when they are impeded in their cars. Or walkers who walk 2 abreast and don’t get out of the effing way.
Any takers?

Yep. One here. Am chilled In a car; when I see a biker I smile as I am one and a bit jealous I am not on a bike. Don’t care about caravans/tractors as they will go in another direction eventually. Walkers could get hurt, I usually tootle along or get off and walk past them. Or behind them.

TJ .
If you came from the densly populated south , with everyone in a hurry to get somewhere . Where very few people know each other , or care about each other. Where the car is king , and poor people ride bikes without paying road tax. Where time is money and everyone is “betterer than you ‘coz I gotta a motor ….”
Then ride the 5 mile route i ride occaisionally, at over 1 meter from the kerb and , I kid you not , you would be verbally and / or physically abused on a daily basis . FYI 40 mph 2 way ‘A’ road.
Its a shame , and a sad fact of life . You simply cannot ride down the middle of the road at 20mph without getting peoples backs up.
You would get spat at , chased maybe buzzed, if you left your ‘safety’ gap beside you .
And its not just local to me , its endemic.

Can all the pro 2 abreasters vouch that they have never got upset with caravans or tractors when they are impeded in their cars. Or walkers who walk 2 abreast and don’t get out of the effing way.
Any takers?

I’ll bite. I’m quite happy to wait behind tractors, but then I don’t drive much so maybe haven’t got into the `right’ mindset 🙂

As for walkers/canal path cyclists or whatever, yes it annoys me a bit if they’re blocking the whole path and could just as well not be. But the analogy doesn’t really hold for me because WVM in that video has a whole extra lane at his disposal, and there is a good reason why the riders might be 2 abreast.

I struggle with long sentences
perfectly legal and no way for any car to overtake me [single rider] without going into the outside lane anyway so whether one or two of us I would be slowing them all down/causing them all to go into the outside lane

Van driver was wrong but his view is shared by many even some of the cyclists on here

Singletrackmind
I have commuted in London and I rode like that. As said I am also courteous, I make eye contact with the cars drivers, I wave them thru when appropriate and make it easy for them to do so when safe. I give clear signals

You are saying I should be cowed into riding in a dangerous manner by the actions of others. I will not. I do not compromise my safety for anyone.

In any case if you think the south has a monopoly on behaviour like that you are mistaken. Edinburgh. Manchester. Glasgow Not much difference. Manchester was probably the scariest of the 4 cities

No, you make PIE contact by throwing their food back into their car! ;O)

May not have been my finest moment that one Martin 🙂

Did I mention London ? hhhhhhmmmmmm , . no.
Where a bike is faster than a car , and there are now so many cyclists picking a fight would leave a car driver at a distinct disadvantage.
London also has a few cctv cameras here and there , and most people are aware of this .
You ride down the middle of the road , your on your own pal .

cowed into riding in a dangerous manner

This makes you sound as if riding down the road in a straight line IS dangerous , Its not the cyclist, the road position , the weather , the time of day etc. Its too many car drivers who detest having to slow for bicycle. It sends them into an apoplectic rage where they have to get past , as soon as possible . At any cost.

So the choice is to take a safe riding position out from the kerb forcing them to overtake properly and giving you an escape route or riding in the gutter allowing them to squeeze by even if there is not enough room to do it safely and leaving you with no escape route.

No contest is it.

Really – the conditions you outline are not solely the province of where you live

Ned Flanders: “You were cycling two abreast?”

Homer Simpson: “I wish. We were cycling to a lake.”

file up!!

And its not just local to me , its endemic.

You will force more drivers into head on situations , where perhaps riding 70cm from the kerb might allow room for both .

Your version of ‘safe’ is very , very confrontational, and leads itself to an unsafe situation.

Like the cyclist in Bromley who got a smack because he had delayed the car a minute or so previuosly

You will force more drivers into head on situations

drivers will choose rather than wait – blind bends on A road near my house makes no difference 70cm or 1m out will still overtake, 1m gives me a bit more room to laugh (not much) when truck appears

singletrackmind – its really is not you know. I am not forcing them into a head on situation. I am forcing them to take heed of me on the road and to give me space.

It is very much safer than allowing yourself to be squeezed onto the edge of the road and to allow cars to attempt to squeeze by when there is no room. the car drivers can see me better. I am in their central vision not peripheral, I can see further down the road and if a nutter wants to make an unsafe overtake I have an escape route to my left

If there is room for both I make it clear there is however I control when the cars can overtake by judging when its safe. the flipside is when its safe I make it easy for them to do so.

According to you I have to be so afraid of nutters that I have to compromise my safety. I will not be cowed into riding in an unsafe manner.

Seriously – get a copy of cyclecraft and read it and try the defensive riding.

where perhaps riding 70cm from the kerb might allow room for both .

yes it might if they were all great drivers but if you want to be buzzed by cars only 70 cm then I am not going to stop you riding in the gutter to achieve this but dont expect me to do this.
The worst thing about that approach is that the overtaking car can see you then they squeeze past but the car behind them or van or wider vehicle has not noticed you. You are now in gdnager a hold up may be OTT but it is the safest option.
Many drivers dont give a shit for your safety if it will save them 3 seconds so unfortunately you need to ride like this sometimes and in some places

You will force more drivers into head on situations , where perhaps riding 70cm from the kerb might allow room for both .

Eh? Are these drivers not in control of their cars then?

There aint half some crap being spouted on this thread. TJ is in the right. All this gutter hogging is dangerous and is what makes some drivers think we should be there.

I will give it a go next time im out on the RB .
Take a more central position and control my lane and assert my presence on others.
I shall report my findings.
Still think most car drivers dont give a rats arse and once you are not in the ‘windcreen’ you dont matter.

All this gutter hogging is dangerous

+1

The beauty of this thread is that you can tell who doesn’t really ride a bike that often, or certainly doesn’t on road.

It’d only take a couple of comutes in busy, fast traffic for some of you lot to shshhh.

most car drivers dont give a rats arse and once you are not in the ‘windcreen’ you dont matter

So speaketh the book of “Clarkson”

singletrackmind – you have to be very aware of what is behind you and when the road is wide enough for the cars to get past sit up, coast and wave em thru if you have been holding someone up. a thanks helps as well.

If yo get the nutters at least you can swerve to the left and end up with a bit more elbow room

as others have said, I’d be inbetween the S and the L – I would want my mate to be behind me as 2abreast is provocative on that road and definitely not poncying about having a conversation

but most importantly, they should be riding a damn sight quicker

ride quicker to match your speed to the traffic, less of a hazard as cars don’t have to slam on the brakes if they see you late due to the other traffic etc (not an excuse for poor driving but it happens)

[edit] oh and yes, don’t ride in the gutter as you give yourself no emergency swerve room – and riding on paint is not good because it’s not as grippy as asphalt, it’s frankly bloody dangerous when wet or icy

regardless of all the above, I would be taking the video to the plod, nice shot of the numberplate

Seriously – get a copy of cyclecraft and read it and try the defensive riding

i suggest you get a copy and read it properly.

nowhere in cyclecraft does it recommend permenantly riding in the primary position which is what i’ve seen you say on this thread and what the guys in that vid where doing.

a safe riding position for the majority of your journey should be in the secondary ,an arms length from the curb. primary position is for putting yourself into a position to be seen and be safe prior to making moves. riding permanently in the primary causes problems for and around you.

and yes i am a nationally accredited cycle instructor, tested and approved to work in devon and the west midlands.

or certainly doesn’t on road.

you are so full of it…… some of them have done hundreds of miles on fire roads and they were not pushing the bike for all of them 😉

Junky – Fireroads are completely different I alway ride in the submisson position within a hairs breadth of collapse at the side of the trail.

Plus, and it’s a big plus, I’m an STW officialated forum gobshite. I can spout my rubbish on here from morning to night and all the hours inbetween providing nobody cottons on to the fact that I should be banned.

TandemJeremy – Member
According to you I have to be so afraid of nutters that I have to compromise my safety. I will not be cowed into riding in an unsafe manner.

Erm…who said that?

trailmonkey

nowhere in cyclecraft does it recommend permenantly riding in the primary position which is what i’ve seen you say on this thread and what the guys in that vid where doing.

I have not said that – I have said I ride 1m from the kerb or more most of the time – thats about an arms length. People on here are advocating 50 cm or less from the kerb which is far too close. to teh kerb. If there is not room for 2 cars and a bike safely then you should be out holding your lane. Never leave the cars a gap to squeeze thru unless there is room for them to do so safely

Most of my riding is in busy urban traffic where I should be in the primary position – holding my lane.

Edit = On that vid there is not enough room for 2 cars and a bike safely so primary position it is to prevent the cars trying to make room fore two cars or are yo saying there is room for two cars and a bike safely?

The beauty of this thread is that you can tell who doesn’t really ride a bike that often, or certainly doesn’t on road.

Ok, which ones don’t ride on the road that often? Name them one by one.

You must be like an uber-commuter or summink. All hail.

The point is, defensive/assertive riding is good.
Being a selfish in-the-right-no-matter-what-the-circumstances prick like the guy on the video is bad.

LOL at Feefoo… you don’t think I actually read the thread before coming up with my assertion do you?

On my commute i keep about a metre ish from the kerb for the simple reason there are a lot of drains, look at the size of a drain cover, look at the slightly damaged tarmac that always seems to be around them.

Now imagine riding in a straight line avoiding the drains and you find you are about a metre from the kerb.

If you want to stay in the gutter going through the broken tarmac, glass, leaves, drains etc, now when you factor in the car straight lining next to you, that little bit of room gives you somewhere to go if you need to. Yes it is your right to ride in the gutter, but i would suggest your a fool.

TandemJeremy – Member

I have not said that – I have said I ride 1m from the kerb or more most of the time – thats about an arms length

i must have imagined this then………….

that road is not wide enough for two cars and a bike so a single bike should be in the middle of the lane anyway

here is not enough room for two cars and a bike there so the bike should be in the centre of the lane.

According to standard defensive riding techniques one should adopt the primary position – occupy your lane.

ok i’m bored already, i’m sure there are more.

FeeFoo has it right………….

The point is, defensive/assertive riding is good.
Being a selfish in-the-right-no-matter-what-the-circumstances prick like the guy on the video is bad.

Trailmonkey – that is not saying ride in the primary position all the time. that is saying on that road ride in the primary position

Are you really saying the you think in that clip there is room for 2 cars and a bike and thus the bike should be at the edge of the road?

it’s a clear road and they’re not turning.

i can’t see any reason why they need to be anywhere but in the secondary, an arms length from the curb.

the only reason they need to be two abreast is to have a chat.

So you think there is room for two cars and a bike safely across the width of that road?

i don’t know what you’re on about ?

the only reason for the cyclist not to be 1m from the curb is because he’s about to turn, pass a junction, pass a parked car etc.

the width of the road, oncoming traffic or snow white and the seven dwarves have nothing to do with it.

i suggest you have another read of cyclecraft tj

heres a though, how many drivers NEED to drive to their destination. Maybe the drivers are the problem, the drivers are in the way, the drivers are after all the ones who kill thousands per year. drivers are the ones who kill cyclists, horses, pedestrians, let alone birds hedgehogs, badgers, foxes etc. Maybe drivers are the ones causing polution and leading to elevated asthma levels, noise pollution, etc etc etc.

Oh sorry i forgot, it is the right of every ****** to behave in a manner that ****s up others lives.

I’d like to see the guy who has one arm a meter long!

We are actually not far apart as we both think the 50 cm some were advocating too close.

The reasons I ask if you think there is enough room for 2 cars and a bike across the width of the road is simple. if there is not then the cyclist needs to make that clear by taking the lane to force cars to overtake properly.

So yes – the width of the road is crucial to your road positioning. I am surprised you don’t know this if you claim to be an accredited instructor.