Public Sector Strike 30/11

None of the neo-liberal economists saw this coming

Greenspan did during the Clinton years – he discovered his models had huge gaps in them. But he was persuaded by others that this didn’t matter.

Frodo – Member
‘Left Foot Forwards’ Please … can we have some credible evidence!

Try reading next time:

The Treasury has collated 14 independent forecasters’ predictions (pdf, p.18) for net government borrowing over the next four years.

Their collected view is that chancellor George Osborne will borrow billions more than the Office of Budget Responsibility predicted he would in June 2010

😆

Ernie – Your views on capitalism are well know. So go on show us the light, how should we run our economy?

Oh how well the Tories and their friends in the media have done in selling their myths to a gullible public.

There we go again…..got to stop this fellas…..

Lifer – Its quite obvious really.

The OBR predictions are based on the same data sets. To say that the independent prediction predicts that Osbournes plan will end up borrowing more than Darlings is at best disingenuous.

The OBR and Treasury predictions use different data sets.

Your up to your no good mischief as usual.

Lifer – I seem to recall that Greenspan was told that he was wrong and better be quiet if he knew what was good for him

Ernie – Your views on capitalism are well know. So go on show us the light, how should we run our economy?

He’s only sleeping…..

Greenspan did during the Clinton years – he discovered his models had huge gaps in them.

I’m not really talking about the housing bubble/credit crises. I’m talking more about the inability of the free-market to correct itself. The problems associated with the housing bubble/credit crises should have been resolved by now, they haven’t been, and the situation is getting worse. None of the neo-liberal economists predicted this. Although plenty of economists did.

Please do. I assume that is your normal routine anyway, as someone displaying your level of intelligence would not exactly be sought after by any employer, private or otherwise

You couldn’t be more wrong. Your intelligence must be on another level, to psychically gauge my level of intelligence over the Internet is amazing. I applaud your mind superiority.

Oh how well the Tories and their friends in the media have done in selling their myths to a gullible public.

I’ve been sold nothing from the media, I went further in my next post to explain why I have formed that opinion so that anybody that read my previous post did not come to that assumption.

My missus is a nurse in the Forces, but effectively works in the NHS for a lot of the time. She can’t strike, but appears to get a very good deal pay wise compared to an NHS nurse, if lacking the job security and flexibility. The MOD seem to be be messing around with the substantial time served bonus payments, continually changing the criteria, which is not great for long term career planning, but she just cracks on with it, knowing its still a good deal. Pay rises seem to have stopped, but she still gets incremental rises.

I doubt Ernie has any more of a clue about how to fix this than the rest of us, up to and including the ‘leaders of the free world’.

But it is obviously bonkers to suggest that;

A) It’s the public sector’s fault, and if we whip them soundly then it will all go away, or

B) What we need is more, freer, unrestricted Capitalism, when thats blatently what has got the world into this mess in the first place.

The problems run as deep as the fundemental character flaws of humanity ourselves, such as greed, envy, laziness, selfishness.

I don’t hold out a great deal of hope for us as a civilisation, to be honest.

One thing they do say though, is when you want to find out who’s fault something is, you should follow the money. Who has profited from this mess? Who stands to profit from it? It ain’t public sector pensioners, thats for sure.

EDIT; perhaps when skynet/the matrix/VIKI takes over, it won’t be such a bad thing…

Your intelligence must be on another level, to psychically gauge my level of intelligence over the Internet is amazing.

Not really. I merely have the ability to read.

Frodo – Member
Lifer – Its quite obvious really.

The OBR predictions are based on the same data sets. To say that the independent prediction predicts that Osbournes plan will end up borrowing more than Darlings is at best disingenuous.

The OBR and Treasury predictions use different data sets.

Comparison of independent forecasts, Annex 2 p.28

Public Sector Net Borrowing: Public sector finances release, Table PSF 1 / Public sector accounts, Table PSAT 1, Code ANNX

What data sets do the OBR use then? Can’t find refernce to it in:

Budget forecast 2010 (P.90)

Your up to your no good mischief as usual.

What?

Not really. I merely have the ability to read.

Oh dear. I rest my case.

It’s got nothing to do with pseudo aphorisms about neo liberalism, it’s more basic stuff, it goes like this, if you borrow money you have at some time or other to pay it back, if you borrow money to give it to whole swathes of your population to either do nothing, or do pointless activities in the name of employment for purely political reasons then sooner or later you are going to go bust.

A couple of things would solve this issue quickly, one would be to get the hell out of Europe and second would be to seriously look at the welfare state, oh and whilst I’m at it, legal aid. We also need to train our potential work force to do things that are actually needed, educate our kids the way the Germans educate theirs less media and drama studies more technology and engineering.

Now before anyone challenges the we’ll all go broke if the Europeans don’t buy our shit, they don’t buy it now unless they absolutely have to and cannot find something local anyway and they certainly do not adhere to their rule structure in the same way we slavishly do.

As to the welfare state, I’ll not get all Daily Mail on you, but it is very detrimental to the human condition being paid to do nothing. If they were not paid they would have to do the sort of work that we are currently having to ship in other nationalities to do.

Anyway it matters not what I think, I have no political clout, no party that represents my views, like a lot of small independent business types, totally disenfranchised.

no party that represents my views

oh, go on

I’m sure there’s a home for you somewhere

As to the welfare state, I’ll not get all Daily Mail on you, but it is very detrimental to the human condition being paid to do nothing. If they were not paid they would have to do the sort of work that we are currently having to ship in other nationalities to do.

Wow.

Public sector worker here. Won’t be striking, won’t be supporting those who do. Turning up as usual to do the job I am paid for.

I doubt Ernie has any more of a clue about how to fix this than the rest of us, up to and including the ‘leaders of the free world’.

You make it sound as if I hold a unique point of view. I can assure you that my opinions are shared with a very great many people, even though they might not be aired much by the British media. You could look at Nouriel ‘Dr Doom’ Roubini for starters.

it is very detrimental to the human condition being paid to do nothing

Ooh I dunno; it’s not done this young lady too much harm:

Laurence Summers makes good points in today’s FT (especially in terms of the distressing polarisation of these debates that leads into the usual merry-go-rounds!):

Why has the top 1 per cent of the population done so well relative to the rest? The answer probably lies substantially in changing technology and globalisation. When George Eastman revolutionised photography, he did very well and, because he needed a large number of Americans to carry out his vision, the city of Rochester had a thriving middle class for two generations. By contrast, when Steve Jobs revolutionised personal computing, he and the shareholders in Apple (who are spread all over the world) did very well but a much smaller benefit flowed to middle-class American workers both because production was outsourced and because the production of computers and software was not terribly labour intensive.

There is no question that this will be more important to the politics of the industrialised world than its response to a market system that distributes rewards increasingly inequitably. To date the debate has been distressingly polarised.

On one side it is framed in zero-sum terms and the disappointing lack of income growth for middle-class workers is blamed on the success of the wealthy. Those with this view should ask themselves whether it would be better if the US had more entrepreneurs like those who founded Apple, Google, Microsoft and Facebook, or fewer. Each contributed significantly to rising inequality but it bears emphasising that companies with a single owner, such as a private equity firm, pay successful CEOs more than public companies do. Where great fortunes are earned by providing great products or services that benefit large numbers of people, they should not be denigrated.

At the same time, those who are quick to label any expression of concern about rising inequality as misplaced or a product of class warfare are even further off base. The extent of the change in income distribution is such that it is no longer true that the overall growth rate of the economy is the principal determinant of middle-class income growth – how the growth pie is distributed is at least as important. That most of the increase in inequality reflects gains for those at the very top at the expense of everyone else further belies the idea that simply strengthening the economy will reduce inequality.

FT 21/11/11

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/66102f44-11db-11e1-a114-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1eLQoPILP

Derek, reasonable, well thought out post. I mostly agree with you. Not sure about the Europe thing, but thats more to do with a lack of understanding about the issue on my part, than any problem with what you said.

As for the the borrowing thing, Too true! Exceedingly clever of the huge corporations and mega rich to obtain all that money, whilst making individuals, small businesses and the tax payer foot the liability for the credit.

welfare state, necessary, but bloated and abused in my experience. I have no clue if its fixable without hurting the wrong people though.

it’s not done this young lady too much harm:

Haha, very good. But I wouldn’t be so sure… not exactly ‘respected’ is she? I would imagine that she probably has some pretty deep rooted self respect issues, too judging from her past behaviour…

Wrong.

Rescue provided by the taxpayer…public and private sector alike.

Wrong. The bailout was provided by the government. The government is part of the public sector. The government is funded by the taxpayer, like other parts of the public sector.

Teamhurtmore, thats a very interesting and seemingly fair article. But whats the answer? Where do we go from here?

Laurence Summers makes good points in today’s FT

Do you think so? It seems like yet another bout of advocacy for trickle-down theory.

binners – Member
Lifer – I seem to recall that Greenspan was told that he was wrong and better be quiet if he knew what was good for him

Ah okay, I remember seeing it in ‘All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace’ gonna have to watch it again now! Dammit! 😀

The government is part of the public sector. The government is funded by the taxpayer, like other parts of the public sector.

We’re all part of the public sector then?

Thats where I remember seeing it. I recall they patted him on the head and told him to go away and rethink everything, and come back with the answers they’d asked for in the first place.

A bit like what’s going on in Brussels at the moment. Which will doubtless end equally as well

yet another bout of advocacy for trickle-down theory.

Did you think so? I thought that the final paragraph pretty strongly criticised that kind of thinking. I’m no expert mind you.

We’re all part of the public sector then?

If you live in somewhere outside the M25, then according to the Daily Mail; yes

AndyP

Are you in a union?

I won’t be striking either, as I couldn’t live with my conscience.

I am very disappointed at the lack of information and guidance from my union, Unison, who have not given ANY information in this regard AFAIK to front line ambulance staff.

There does need to be a general sort out, there needs to be an ideology to unite the protests, right now, nobody except the odd banker and politico is very happy with the situation as we find it. We need a latter day Marx with a viable alternative.

Enough needs to be defined, how rich does anyone really need to be, a day of a mans labour should be the same value the world over, it could be based on energy value, certainly in the none too distant future energy considerations are going to be very important.

Right now so many folk are protesting for so many different reasons, change is certainly in the air, wish that it were somebody could come up with the definitive article, some thing worth revolting over.

But it does seem very unfair the global distribution of wealth and it aint getting any better and here in the good old cradle of democracy – what have we got? More clones in suits difficult to define a difference in value between them, all self serving career politicos without an ounce of conviction between them.

I do despair.

Mods – can we ban derekrides please?

We don’t want to be interrupting the cyclical ranting and specification of FACTS from entrenched positions, with the like of him, coming round here with his reasoned arguments

Peston makes some interesting observations …not so much were **** but more …its going to take a long time to turn around this crisis. Don’t expect a pay rise any time soon!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15820601

binners – Member
Mods – can we ban derekrides please?

We don’t want to be interrupting the cyclical ranting and specification of FACTS from entrenched positions, with the like of him, coming round here with his reasoned arguments

Not to worry, they tend to do that fairly frequently, in fact whilst I’m on that subject where do all the banned folk go, I notice it’s quite a regular occurrence, got quite upset the first time, now realise it’s a bit like school here and that’s kind of like detention, anyone would think the place was run by an ex Physics teacher..

We’re all part of the public sector then?

Most of us are taxpayers. Those taxes are used to fund the activities of the public sector, which includes bailing out part of the private sector.

It’s not a contentious point.

I’ll vote Derekrides… He hasn’t got any more of a clue how to fix it than the rest of us, but at least he admits as much. 😀

AndyP

Are you in a union?

No. I disagree with the very concept of them.

I won’t be striking either, as I couldn’t live with my conscience.

I couldn’t live with my conscience if I crossed a picket-line, unless I was a designated essential service. Because that would make me a scab.