Osbourne says no to currency union.

I’m curious as to what the more hard line yes voters amongst us(you know who you are) are thinking of the increase in chatter about Devo +

I’m guessing “we’ve heard this before, and we don’t trust it to happen, and it’s not what we want” to varying degrees?

Yup, that’s basically it. If they were serious about more devolution, there would have been legislation in place by now, it would have featured in the Queen’s Speech, it would be on the referendum ballot, the details of exactly what was being offered would already be down in black and white.

Instead, with less than 3 months to go, we have a bunch of people standing on Calton Hill with purple letters.

The No side thought it was in the bag. There was no way people in Scotland would ever vote for independence, so no need to offer any more devolution. Now they’re hoping a last-minute vague promise will convince people they’re serious.

We fell for that one last time:

Once you strip that out it seems very possible the Scots could elect a centre-right government.

Certainly possible – Scotland was a Conservative stronghold for a long time. Might happen again if the aim of reindustrialising Scotland works.

it is of course possible an independent Scotland could have a right wing government

Anything is possible even Ben voting No or THM praising AS 😉

You know, I’m a strong Yes person on here because, well, I like a good argument. But sometimes I do think that if there’s a No vote it’s not all that bad – we’ll muddle along pretty much as we are, and “better the devil you know” is a strong argument, especially with family and business to think about.

And we can always have another referendum in 2024 😀

Ben, joking apart, AS has already won in one sense. The Westminster elite is now bending over backwards to stress how much extra power will be devolved – partly a good thing, but partly because that cannot engage with BSers like salmond and Farrage. What is on offer with the no vote is now much closer to the vision outlined in the BoD than voting yes. Of course that is also because the BoD is not a manifesto for independence anyway.

But the answer is blindingly obvious re where the vote should be on the 18th since both parties are ultimately pointing in the same direction (intentionally or not). No one has yet put forward an coherent or a convincing argument for yes not even yS.

Good article in yesterday’s FT on this.

In separate news, Strathcylde Uni is arguing that a UK rise in IR will hurt the Scottish economy. Gosh, the earth is round!!! And here is yS wanting to have a currency union that will make this even worse by having a foreign power setting rates. You couldn’t make it up!

A London-centric monetary policy is bad enough but to replace it with a foreign-country one is absurd.

THM , ignoring your usual barbs about AS [ Really we have got it], you are correct that UKIP and the SNP have managed to frame the agenda and move the main parties towards their view.

And we can always have another referendum in 2024

I reckon there’s likely to be one of them if you vote Yes as well… 😉

I can see it now, all sending postcards to your friends in rUK, saying ‘we’re sorry, please take us back’ 😆

Has it ever occurred to Scots that the rest of the UK already see Scotland’s relationship in the union as unequal and any more powers devolved to Scotland result in even more inequality? I personally don’t want an English parliament to address this either, I prefer less government where possible. If you don’t like the union as it is then surely a vote for independence is the best way to change Scotland rather than waiting to see if any more powers are given to Scotland. If the union is to be changed in any way I really think all parts of the UK should be given a vote on it.

Absolutely, devolution is a fudge. We really want federalism, a complete redesign of the system.

If that was on offer (and polls show that 70% of Scots would want it) then independence would be a non-starter.

I’m curious as to what the more hard line yes voters amongst us(you know who you are) are thinking of the increase in chatter about Devo +

I think you have pretty well answered yourself piemonster.
In addition to that the tory proposal still leaves the majority of income raising under westminster control. The Labour party want to retain Barnett,Liberals want to reform it , but the Tory proposal has nothing to say about Barnett. To me devo max seems to be westminster offering to give the Scottish government a job, but taking half the tools out of the tool box. Thats if you could trust them to deliver in the first place
Never thought of myself as”hardcore” until now 8)

Hardcore you know the score

Boom tish boom tish boom tish boom tish

An article just appeared on BikeBiz about Scottish independence:

http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/how-does-the-bike-trade-feel-about-scottish-independence/016522

And I wrote an opinion that might appear in the article:

The business arguments against independence I’ve seen so far are quite short-term – worries about which currency an independent Scotland will use, concerns about how quickly an independent Scotland will have EU membership, things like that. I think we need to be thinking longer term. Most people are agreed that the increasing inequality in the UK isnt’t good for most people, and neither is the increasing concentration of wealth in the City of London.

With independence, something can be done about that – there are plans to try to reindustrialise Scotland, which are perhaps over-ambitious, but it’s a good aim. It would not only help Scotland, it would act as a new focus of trade for the North of England too. We will have a currency to use, we will have EU membership, and we will have a strong economy – some temporary teething troubles need to be planned for, but should not influence the decision.

There is a lot of talk about unknowns – the worry is that there are too many unknowns with independence, but there are unknowns if Scotland stays in the UK too. As a business, I import from across Europe, and also sell to Europe as well – the biggest political concern I have at the moment is that the UK is moving away from Europe, and may well leave the EU. This would have a serious effect on my business, making it more expensive to both import and export.

This is too big to view it on purely business terms, however. The Westminster system of government is broken, with a lower house full of millionaires and an unelected upper house, and political parties all trying to outdo themselves to appeal to the narrow right-wing demographic that they think will give them power – meanwhile everyone else is turned off politics, and election turnout falls further and further. Something needs to be done about it, and the only option on the table is independence – I would have preferred a federal system of government for the whole UK, but that’s not been offered. Will my daughter grow up as I did, feeling that there was little point voting as our votes had no influence? I hope not. Will she grow up with huge sums being spent on nuclear weapons based less than 30 miles from our house, instead of on schools and hospitals? I hope that won’t happen either.

Carry on 😀

bencooper – Member
Absolutely, devolution is a fudge. We really want federalism, a complete redesign of the system.

If that was on offer (and polls show that 70% of Scots would want it) then independence would be a non-starter.

Sadly that is not what you are going to get anyway and AS proposals remain a mile away. If he had the balls to start with an independent currency (with its pros and cons) that would be a start. Instead it’s obvious that he is actually scared of the notion of full independence.

He wants power not reform

Currency is a long term issue.

He wants power not reform

this !

piemonster – Member

I’m curious as to what the more hard line yes voters amongst us(you know who you are) are thinking of the increase in chatter about Devo +. I’m guessing “we’ve heard this before, and we don’t trust it to happen, and it’s not what we want” to varying degrees?

In a nutshell. Obviously there’s an element of “won’t be fooled again” but even without the history, there’s every reason to assume it’s all cobblers. Why else would we get noncommittal handwavey messages about devolution but nothing in the Queen’s Speech? These are the guys who have the power to deliver, but they’re choosing not to, and they’re very carefully avoiding even promising anything. TBF I’d expected empty promises but we’re not even getting that!

Remember a few weeks back, there was a bit of a stumshy about a government independence poll? That poll was taken out and funded by the Westminster devolution team. So we’re hearing about how we’ll get more devolution, but the reality is the people who’re supposed to be responsible for devolution are working on the No campaign instead.

It’s not impossible we’d get more devolution but you’d have to be a mug to vote No on that expectation without something written in blood.

it’s obvious that he is actually scared of the notion of full independence.

Is that The BBC and the exam board on the phone asking for your impartial views? That is not true as you well know and you cannot actually consider this to be the case

He wants power not reform

Is he is scared or is he craving power ? Which is it? You cannot even use entirely made up ad homs here you hate him that much you are posts are contradicting each other.
To claim he just wants power is stupid and, as you are not stupid,why are you saying this? You really need to re introduce yourself to reality where AS is concerned;your views are passing from the ludicrous and edging towards the deranged.
You really need to get a grip here.
He has worked all his life to achieve an independent scotland within the SNP . He knows the best way to have achieved power would have been to join another party. Instead he has worked for a minority party, with a minority issue, gained some form of devolution, gained power in Scotland [ a system designed to avoid him getting it tbh] and become the leader and then got a referendum. he has achieved power but his goal is still independence. It is like claiming Mandela wanted power rather than a free south africa , it really is that bad.
What next he smells of wee and worships satan? it is about all you have left to throw at him

These are the guys who have the power to deliver, but they’re choosing not to,

The Scottish government can ‘deliver’ on tax rates tomorrow, they could alter the rate of income tax by up to three pence, but have chosen not to

Indeed, the SNP have previously campaigned on the very issue of income tax rates, however once they got the power, they have not used it…

Perhaps the UK government want to see them use the powers they’ve got, plus the ones they’re due to get soon anyway, before offering them more?

Ninfan The cost of administering a marginal rise in income tax would use a large per centage of any increase in the Scottish government tax take not just my opinion but this man’s as well.
Douglas Fraser BBC Scotland Economic Correspondent
Now if Scotland were taking 100% of taxes then the cost of administering changes in the income tax rate would be much less significant.

Junkyard wins the hysterical rant of the week award.

Few too many beers after work?

It’s the hunger FNF. If you don’t feed, the hunger reaches unbearable levels!!

Very funny though.

ed balls will resign if there is a union and he is chancellor…surely we can all agree this is at least one plus to it 😉

faster feel free to try your best in explaining why what I said was untrue, I need a laugh tbh. Even THM , and he is far brighter than you, has the sense to not try.

EDIT: Crossedposts but most amusing

THM reporting me for trolling and we can see if you tell the truth or if your conduct is “unbecoming” …go on them

Your claim is false as you well know …what do we call someone who repeats claims they know are false?

It’s not impossible we’d get more devolution but you’d have to be a mug to vote No on that expectation without something written in blood.

Still a better bet than voting yes.

Your claim is false as you well know …what do we call someone who repeats claims they know are false?

Oh,oh,me Sir! Is it a liar?

It certainly poses an interesting dilemma

Take balls out of the political arena and he makes some good points at times. Of course, he is spot on re the CU. Sad that his alter ego is so appalling. Forgot all his economics training while in power (for which he should never be forgiven) but at least he has remembered the basics now. He could give the DO some tutorials on the basics of how currencies work.

JY, I didn’t say it was untrue I said it was rant of the week. Reread it, you sounded like a man possessed. As for you questioning my intelligence didn’t I have to pull you up for using out of date figures recently? Wouldn’t an intelligent person check their facts first? Although I am sure you are intelligent, at least in your own opinion anyway.

I didn’t say it was untrue I said it was rant of the week. Reread it, you sounded like a man possessed

you said hysterical rant whilst suggesting i was drunk actually so it is hysterical , pissed and possessed but true DO you expect anyone to believe this you just want to argue because you are still smarting over the straw man thing. Move on please.

didn’t I have to pull you up for using out of date figures recently

you complained when I quoted from an article we were discussing and then claimed their figures were mine.
I considered that to be so daft it did not even warrant a reply. That you consider it a win for you rather proves my point. They were not my figures, my article , my point or my link and i even added 😛 to show I was taking the piss with the point. Apart form that yes you totally pwned me there and I was right shown up by you.

Really do we have to do this
Lets at least choose something real to disagree over eh.

FWIW I have no animosity towards you so do we have to do this?
Lets move on please.

To me devo max seems to be westminster offering to give the Scottish government a job, but taking half the tools out of the tool box.

rather…..

To me, a yes vote seems to be Holyrood confirming MSPs jobs, but throwing nearly all of the (necessary and important) tools out of the box (and over the wall)

And this is meant to be hardcore?!?

[FNF did you hear the whoosh? 😉 ]

Makes chicken noises and the boy who cries wolf troll
Defend what you say then THM ? You cannot it and you know it.
You are a pathetic intellectual coward who says troll rather than attempt to defend your bunkum claims [ I am still sober FTF 😉 ]

Its clearly BS to claim AS just wants power rather than to accept he is, and always has been, committed to scottish independence. Even you know this and it’s not even close to a defendable position. its why you have not even tried.
Why say stuff you cannot defend?

JY you backing down even 1% I will take as a win, so just this once I will let it slide 8).

THM devo max would be a disaster. It would allow holyrood to do as it pleases while knowing that it could always rely on Westminster to bail it out. For Holyrood to retain credibility it either needs not enough powers to get out of its depth (ie the current scenario) or to know if it makes any mistakes no one is coming to the rescue (full independence). If Holyrood ever needed bailing out by the UK I can’t imagine there would not be a cry to take powers back. I do think it is independence or nothing, but I am open discussion on this.

You are a pathetic intellectual coward ….

I see this thread is still chugging along nicely.

cheers I have no issue with you- I do admit when i am wrong- but it is rare [ as it is for us all on here generally]. We are all opinionated so it is rare but I am far from perfect and I am open to change*. I have changed my mind in a few issue in STW helmets and Nukes springs to mind. I

THM i have no issue with you either, despite what you think, except on this thread where you make indefensible claims or do what you object to.

I think if it is a close no vote they will moan/ ask/ beg/ plead for it

the closer the vote the stronger their claim
Will whomever is in power next give it them – I am not sure tbh.
they wont have another vote that is for sure. Its hard to see, perhaps like the EU, that any outcome will put the issue to bed as the population is fairly evenly split and the vote will be [ relatively for a two horse options] close

* TBH were i voting on this i would be an undecided now. I started off happy to vote for anything that removed the Tories but even I am wavering as there is a lot of needless complication re currency, defence, borders etc, Federalism would be a better choice IMHO. SHHH dont tell everyone though. Hell even THM has convinced me on [ most of ]the economic issues

yes fair point ernie that was OTT and i apologise for it- I should have worded it less harshly /nicer. Defend what you say or dont but the troll jibe is weak IMHO.
Nonetheless that was not OK to say.
THM sorry for that comment it was not acceptable and I retract it.
Mods feel free to edit it out and this if required.

THM devo max would be a disaster. It would allow holyrood to do as it pleases while knowing that it could always rely on Westminster to bail it out.

Quite, as would other aspects of the arguments such as CU. That is pretty clear and a reason on the unanimity of political opposition south of the wall to the CU proposal. But there are some merits – as mentioned much earlier, I am a supporter in general of devolved power as a starting point be it countries, regions, local communities, even schools.

For Holyrood to retain credibility it either needs not enough powers to get out of its depth (ie the current scenario) or to know if it makes any mistakes no one is coming to the rescue (full independence).

Again, I broadly agree. I would have few(er) qualms about the later although I think that the current scenario is on balance better for both sides.

If Holyrood ever needed bailing out by the UK I can’t imagine there would not be a cry to take powers back. I think it is independence or nothing, but I am open discussion on this.

“Sensible” discussion only though – that is the current problem, the debate has been incorrectly framed (quite deliberately by yS). Not even yS put forward a case for independence. They themselves continue to argue why it is better for Scotland to be integrated into wider economic regions – first by abdicating economic policy to rUK via a CU and utlimately to Brussels via the €. By any standards that is “some” admission that highlights the folly of this whole exercise. The main proponents do not actually want what is on offer. What a waste…….

THM devo max would be a disaster. It would allow holyrood to do as it pleases while knowing that it could always rely on Westminster to bail it out.

Out of interest, does anyone how does the US handle devolved powers for the individual states.
What sort of federal bailout/guarantees are there?
I sort of remember the discussion when the Eurozone group were bailing out Greece and the like, there was talk of what would the US Federal Gov do if a state got itself in similar trouble?

Well having just listened to the first broadcast of “Crossfire” on radio scotland, I am glad to say there was no sign of labour front bencher Kezia Dugdale. The story is she pulled out. What ever happened I am glad that BBC Scotland is not paying a shadow minister during the run up to the referendum.

Oops 😀

oof!