Jeremy Corbyn

This is not the time for a leadership issue.

Of course it isn’t.

Stick with the most unpopular leader in the history of mankind. Why wouldn’t you?

Oh…. because the electoral system means that the entire political party is being held hostage by a mix of grizzled old communists and sixth form bedwetters.

I don’t know which I hate the most! I’m sure its a question a lot of life-long labour voters, who could never bring themselves to vote for a clueless tool like Corbyn are presently asking themselves

Perhaps more worrying is the fact that Rayner and Long-Bailey are being lined up as potential replacements. You can screw up once, but do it twice in a row and you are in serious problems.

Hague
I.D.S
Howard

Milliband
Corbyn
???

Unfortunately these idiots all ganged together, took advantage of the new woefully ill-conceived electoral system and voted Corbyn in.

Twice.

They’re actually so moronic, they’d probably do it again tomorrow

Labour has no chance of electing an effective leader whilst the current leadership election system is in place and the hard left nutters won’t allow that system to be changed – it is the only election they have a chance of winning.

Was Manchester Gorton the constituency where you said that jewish voters had decided not to back Labour any more ?

https://order-order.com/2017/02/26/gerald-kaufman-dead/%5B/url%5D

With a majority of 24,000 they should retain the seat.

Kaufman was one of Israel’s strongest critics, one reason why Corbyn was so close to him.

As I have posted before the take over of Labour is a result for the hard left even if they only win 150 seats as thats many more than they had control of before and much more ££££ in terms of salaries and researcher/assistant funding. More time on TV getting their message accross. We’ve seen how appalling a protest poitician like Corbyn is when in charge (cough cough) he doesn’t want to be PM he just wants to protest more loudly “on principal”

Labour under Corbyn is turning out just as we said it would with the key difference that we thought he would have been kicked out a year ago.

We’ve seen how appalling a protest poitician like Corbyn is when in charge

NO

FFS

We’ve seen how appalling Corbyn HIMSELF is when in charge. Don’t start shitty generalisations. I’m sorry to be rude, but I find the way you make leaps and connections in your rhetoric absolutely abhorrent. Like you cannot actually have a constructive conversation, you can only smear and insinuate. Which is the very worst trait most politicans share, and the real reason most people are disengaged from proper debate.

Its a generalisation worth making. Protest politicians don’t have the skills to be in charge eg compromise to appeal to a broader audience, they have the skills to protest, ie make a fuss.

Farage, Trump, Sturgeon?

Oh wait a minute you said skills in charge?!! As you were 😉

Full-on tinfoil helmet bonkersness from within the bunker

😆

Kaufman was one of Israel’s strongest critics

True. He must be a racist anti-semite by your logic.

The running-dog, so-called-Blairite, crypto-facist running-dog scum of so-called New Labour gained 58% of the vote in Copeland in 1997.

Does anyone need any more convincing of just how devious these Red Tories are ?

Praise be that we have a man of conviction like Jeremy to bring a new type of politics to the constituency!

you are @corbynsuperfan and I claim my five pounds.

Wow Molgrims angry man, you taking lessons from Messiah Corbyn?

Interesting that McDonnell today has gone full bunker mentality. The way things are going they’ll only go, if the party goes down with them. Amazing stuff. They are either extraordinarily stupid and belligerent, or being paid off by the Tories!

Full-on tinfoil helmet bonkersness from within the bunker

Honestly this is getting silly now. Yes the way it’s written suggest a slightly paranoid bunker mentality, but the actual points it raises are pretty much established fact.

Are there people in the labour party actively pursuing an agenda to unseat Corbyn? Yes, of course they are. Peter Mandelson is on record saying he does something every day to bring it about.

Do they have friends in the media who can publish material to support their goals? Does this question really need answering?

Would they rather the labour party lose than continue with Corbyn at the helm? Tony Blair said so himself so why disbelieve him?

You can’t really deny this is all happening when it’s pretty much on record. But you can question the response to it. Talk of plotters and suchlike isn’t helpful. They should be aiming to take the higher ground and resist using the activity of their opponents as excuses for their failings, which I think they are guilty of.

@dazh you clearly haven’t been reading my rationale. You can critise the Isaeli government without being anti-Semitic. Many Jews including Kaufman do exactly that. The footage of the soldier shooting the Palestinian knife attacker was firmed and released by Jews, their actions are not anti-Semtitc. I have explained many times how and where such critism / actions / inactions crosses the line into racism. One example is harrasing Jewish students at University as a proxy for Israel government policy, such behaviour is now commonplace and especially during Israel Apatheid Week which is running now. I have heard first hand from students affected. Kurds in London protesting Turkey stand outside the embassy with flags and chant slogans, they don’t find Turkish students and hurl abuse or find restaurants and try and force them out of business

@binners yup that’s the full monty. Absolutely bonkers.

Zionism is the nationalist belief that the Jews should have a homeland

That’s a nice way of putting it. Though doesn’t really say much about the theft of another peoples land and forced removal, nor that the borders of that stolen land are not defined, hence expansionist in its essense. (See continual settlement expansion for evidence.)

But aye lets stick with the nice fluffy definition.

In that context it’s perfectly reasonable to be anti-zionist. I am.

@dazh you clearly haven’t been reading my rationale

Since when did you have a rationale? Surely that’s a very grand way to describe making stuff up about Corbyn and the Labour party and posting it on an endless loop?

^^ Seaso the point of anti-Zionists is that they seek to destroy the world’s only Jewish state which was created by the foreunner of the UN. Israel is surrounded by Arab states which from1948 to this day have tried to wipe it off the face of the earth. The Arabs attacking Israel have constantly failed in this military action and in general the Palestinians have been caught in the middle and have seen the land they would like as a state shrink as a result. Israel returned to Egypt more land (ie the Sinai) than it has ever “taken” from the Palestinians. Israel did this after Egypt signed a peace agreement. The precedent is quite clear.

The Palestinians want a single state solution, the eradication of Israel. Hama is quite ooen and says this should be achieved via Jihad, Fatah thinks it will achieve it via negotiation eg right of return. Until they change their stance the situation is going to continue to be dire.

Do you actually believe that shit?

Let me ask a question, as I’m fairly certain a one state solution is the only answer, as israel won’t allow a 2 state solution, that much is clear.

In Israels one state solution (which is the only one worth talking about, rather that the utter fantasy of a palestinian 1 state solution,) would you give the palestinians equal voting rights?

Daz… that statement from the bunker isn’t ‘slightly paranoid’, it’s the ramblings of a madman.

Apparently he’s now ‘trying to distance himself from the statement’

Though I don’t know how exactly you set about ‘distancing yourself’ from a statement you wrote yourself then posted online 😆

Israel returned to Egypt more land (ie the Sinai) than it has ever “taken” from the Palestinians

How the **** does Israel giving land to Egypt help the Palestinians?

http://labourbriefing.squarespace.com/home/2017/2/26/the-soft-coup-is-under-way

“The plotters are effective in distorting the media coverage because they have extensive contacts and allies in the media”

Isn’t the current Labour leadership supposed to have their own extensive media allies and contacts since getting their message out is their job.

Agree re media distortion, but everyone suffers from that, not just Labour.

molgrips – Member
Israel returned to Egypt more land (ie the Sinai) than it has ever “taken” from the Palestinians
How the **** does Israel giving land to Egypt help the Palestinians?

I also wonder how giving examples of Israels utter military superiority, supports the case that nasty Palestinians are even capable of “wiping Israel off the map”.

I agree with Jamba (never thought that would happen) the hard left hat dominates the Labour Party membership are not interested in winning an election, however if they can retain 150 seats and utilise deselection they have a very strong left wing political presence. Disruptive politics is what they are interested in not governing. Corbyn has never hidden this, the PLP can not fix this they need to resign.

jambalaya – Member

@dazh you clearly haven’t been reading my rationale. You can critise the Isaeli government without being anti-Semitic.

Yet on page 321 you posted the Lair Yapid Newsnight interview where he equates criticism of Israeli policy with anti Semitism.

Which is it?

It’s been three months, any chance of an answer?

it’s the ramblings of a madman.

Hardly. Do you deny that the substance of what he’s talking about is true? What’s up for debate is not whether there are people high up in the labour party and the media who are actively seeking to undermine and unseat Corbyn, but how to respond to them. What should they do? What would you do in their position?

Rusty, blimey 3 months ago … back I go to check and will reply.

EDiT: yes I do see anti-Zionist and anti-Semite as one and the same. Isreal is the world’s only Jewish State. There are many Christian States. Thee are many Islamic States. Anti-Zionist means you do not believe the Jews have a right to their own state. I have yet to meet an anti-Zionist who believes all the Arab/Islamic states should become Secular, are those same people campaigning to ensure Ireland, Italy and Spain (Poland too) seek to become Secular shen they are so clearly Catholic states ? No they are not they are only targetting Jews.

I don’t want to derail the thread with an argument about Israel so we best move on. Suffice to say if Corbyn is leader come 2020 terrorism/IRA/Hezbollah and Hamas his words and actions will be front and centre

I would suggest that the very last thing anyone on the right (outside of the labour party) would want to do is unseat corbyn. He’s far too valuable in post. That does not mean the Murdoch media won’t have some sport at his expense but they will pull their punches before a 10 count.

jambalaya – Member
Rusty, blimey 3 months ago … back

I’m very patient.
🙂

I don’t want to derail the thread with an argument about Israel so we best move on.

I’m not asking about Israel.
I’m asking whether you believe what Yair Lapid said in that interview, specifically his answer to KW’s question approx 2 minutes in.

What’s newswprthy in the JMcD briefing. Did he believe that this want happening? Politics is a nasty business – ask the cuckoos too…..

jambalaya – Member
I have yet to meet an anti-Zionist who believes all the Arab/Islamic states should become Secular.

Israel can do what it like in regards to religion. But if it’s going to utterly control a population it should afford those citizens equal rights, a decent standard of living and a vote. You want the territory, you inherit the responsibility to look after the people already there.

Show me a muslim or a christian country doing the same and I’ll be equally against it. (fire away with examples if you like.)

Anti-Zionist means you do not believe the Jews have a right to their own state.

It does not anymore than anti-semite means you hate all semites [ who include the palestinians]. Words meanings change

I have yet to meet an anti-Zionist who believes all the Arab/Islamic states should become Secular, are those same people campaigning to ensure Ireland, Italy and Spain (Poland too) seek to become Secular shen they are so clearly Catholic states ? No they are not they are only targeting Jews.

well its the only Jewish state so the “logic” is tautologous and you have completely missed the point
Many people complain about the actions of those states you dont claim racism when folk do it and they object to their actions not their religion.

The reason for the objections are all based on what Israel [ or the other countries] does not its religion. That you do not wish to try to defend its actions, which are in clear violation of international law and decent morality, I can understand . It easier to scream anti semite rather than explain how “putting people on a diet”, collective punishments, lands grabs and illegal settlements, assassinations abroad etc are ok. Objecting to these actions is neither objecting to Jews or to a Jewish state its objecting to what the state is doing.
I find it somewhat unlikely you would let or defend an Arab state were it to do 5% of Israel. I can only imagine you reaction were it doing it to the Jewish folk it was depriving of land. If you need to find arguments that lack coherence, principle and logic then its much closer than you think.

If i criticise china humanitarian record it is not due to racism or their state religion Same with Saudi or Pakistan or wherever.
Its not a hard point to grasp

I also dont want to derail it but that needed a reply.

I will not be debating israel with you

Rusty he also said if a jewish person said it was then it was true so he is still anti scottish as i said so.

Hardly. Do you deny that the substance of what he’s talking about is true?

Ahh, but why then is he trying to “distance” himself from the article that he typed out and put onto a website ?

He’s now distancing himself from distancing the article.

Very good article in this month’s GQ, from Alastair Campbell. Pretty damning on Corbyn and JMcD – in a nutshell they don’t have a strategy to win the next election. A good read …and I’m not a fan of any one political party.

The myth of individual culpability allows them to salvage the underlying dogma and try again under new leadership. Whether Mr Corbyn goes before or after the next general election, scheduled for 2020, his erstwhile supporters will recruit a more persuasive vessel for their socialism and pacifism — as if a country that has not returned a prime minister to the left of Tony Blair since 1974 has any interest in either. This way, Labour can waste another electoral cycle, not just this one and the last one.

Ganesh in FT. Simply put.

Rusty KY Is it possible to be anti-Zionist and not anti-Semitic ? He says anti-Zionism is just “camouflage” for anti-Semitism – this I agree with for the reasons I have given

seasom there is a whole raft of countries for example which are responsible for human rights violations and no one, you included, are campaigning for those countries to cease to exist. Regime change maybe, eg Syria but not for the country to dissapear. It’s like campaigning to put the Pope in charge of Mecca because of Saudi Human Rights violations. Thats the point with anti-Zionism, it’s goal is to ensure Israel ceases to exist and more than that that Jews have no right to have a country anywhere.

On rights, Isreali Arabs have (imo) the best standard of living in the most liberal democracy anywhere in the Middle East or broader Arab world. Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank are not Israeli citizens, the Gazans chose their government in 2005 when Israel withdrew. I would argue they made a very poor choice which has lead them to the place that they are. Something like 90% of Palestinians live under the rule of the Palestinian Authority.

Anyway back to Corbyn, he has a problem with Jews. He sent Tom Watson to Israel on a visit saying he was “too busy”. I am sure Tom Watson is a strong critic of Israeli policies but he went and he sang the Israeli National Anthem.

Rusty KY Is it possible to be anti-Zionist and not anti-Semitic ? He says anti-Zionism is just “camouflage” for anti-Semitism – this I agree with for the reasons I have given

Thanks for the reply but you still have not answered my question.

Yair Lapid, in the interview you posted, and say you agree with, states that he believes criticism of the Israeli government is, in itself, anti Semitic.

Yet a couple of pages ago you say it is not.

You can see why I and possibly others are confused.
🙂

🙄