Israel's Netanyahu sparks uproar by suggesting WWII-era Palestinian leader inspi

assumed it was the other way around, and that Barack Obama and co are calling Jamba before they decide anything, to make sure their decisions are 100% correct.

I heard they stopped after he wrote a dossier for Tony 😉
Try hard badge?

Can I just point out to Chewkw

No, Piggie, you really can’t. You can try. But it won’t work. So stop trying.

So, question for you Gonzy

What’s your suggested endgame?

Both communities have a right to exist, but a minority in both communities cannot, and will not, ever accept this.

Realistically, there are four options:

Single state – (arguably never going to work as a minority will continue the violence)
Dual state set on ’67 borders
Dual state set on ’48 borders
Dual state set on ’47 partition plan borders

The problem here, to a great many people, is that the whole thing descends into the cycle of negotiating bedtime with a teenager – if the Joos strike a peace deal and withdraw to ’67 borders, then the Palestinians fight for ’48 borders begins the next day, and the violence continues – because, as we said, a minority won’t ever accept the right of the other to remain (and given the fact that the Israelis tried to go down this road with disengagement, you can see their concern)

So, what’s the endgame?

(and given the fact that the Israelis tried to go down this road with disengagement, you can see their concern)

Thing is, they didn’t. They have never stopped increasing their settlement activity, or restricting the rights of Palestinians within their own “self controlled” areas. It gets to the stage now when the US President expresses concern at the rate of settlement and the Israeli PM tells him to go f*** himself. They are out of control.

So, question for you Gonzy

What’s your suggested endgame?

The problem is that one side has already decided what the endgame* is going to be, hasn’t it?

*you mean of course the deaths of innocent humans, and the destruction of an entire country while western govts look the other way, but, y’know, “endgame” seems more nice somehow doesn’t it..?

So, question for you Gonzy

What’s your suggested endgame?

that depends on your reasons for asking me. you probably have guessed from my comments on other threads that i am Muslim…so are you asking for my opinion or are you trying to get a Muslim perspective on what the supposed endgame should be?

its funny that its you and Jambalaya who seem to pick up on what i say and always post comments on here that are specifically aimed at me

i will give you a response but i’d first like to know why you are asking me in particular and not anyone else

Something like this perhaps? This is a quote from the current Israeli Minister of Justice, calling for genocide:

“They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.”

They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists,” said Shaked. Standing behind the operations on Gaza, “they are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists,”

Or then there’s their Minister for Culture who incites mob violence against Sudanese immigrants she described as a ‘cancer’.

‘Regev’s controversial comments came during a violent rally staged by residents of Tel Aviv’s south – where many African migrants live – to protest rising crime rates in the area. In the rally, the Likud MK said “the Sudanese are a cancer in our body.”

She was later criticized for inflaming the protesters, with angry demonstrators later going on to attack African passers-by and journalists, breaking into and looting shops associated with the African migrant community and shattering car windshields.’

Perhaps ‘final solution’ would be more appropriate than endgame? And no I don’t give a shit if someone starts going on about Godwin, it’s a valid comparison when people start talking like this.

The problem is that one side has already decided what the endgame* is going to be, hasn’t it?

*you mean of course the deaths of innocent humans, and the destruction of an entire country while western govts look the other way, but, y’know, “endgame” seems more nice somehow doesn’t it..?

doesn’t that apply just as much to the Israelis, as to the people who fought to wipe Israel off the map?

Edit:

@Gonzy, I’m asking you as, IMO you’re the probably loudest voice on the thread as to what the Palestinians ‘want’

@Grum, I think that just reinforces the argument that there are nutters on both sides who would prevent a single state solution.

Palestinians where offered Israeli citizenship.

This is another Big Historical Lie.

@Grum, I think that just reinforces the argument that there are nutters on both sides who would prevent a single state solution.

Yup, but again – there’s only one side holding all the cards here plus Israel constantly tries to portray itself as holding the moral high ground and claiming the only reason they get criticised is due to anti-semitism. But then they elect racist nut-jobs to their government who say shit like this. 😕

there’s only one side holding all the cards here

Is that not only as a direct result of what happened when they were not holding all the cards, and remarkably managed to avoid being wiped off the map in three wars (Yom Kippur war they were outnumbered 100:1 in troops and 10:1 in armour)

@Gonzy, I’m asking you as, IMO you’re the probably loudest voice on the thread as to what the Palestinians ‘want’

i seriously doubt i am the loudest voice on this thread as you put it and i dont recall stating what the Palestinians want on this thread.

but to answer your question, seeing as the Israeli government implements its zionist policy and its treatment of the Palestinians is comparative of how black people were treated in S Africa during the years of apartheid, maybe they should follow their model of reconciliation and allow a single state solution where everyone is treated equally and given the same civil rights and liberties. that would include repatriation of those who have been forcibly displaced by the illegal settlements and for a sincere apology from both sides to end the hostilities and a pledge to work towards unity, peace and a better future for all.
also for those responsible for crimes against the people on both sides to be held accountable for their actions/decisions and to be tried as war criminals.
obviously for this to work the government would need to release from imprisonment a notable and popular political figure amongst those who have suffered at the hands of the government, and who could potentially lead and inspire a nation to move forward together in the search for peace.

but that wont happen as unlike the S Africans who jailed their political enemies the Israelis like to assassinate them instead

Is that not only as a direct result of what happened when they were not holding all the cards,

Maybe. And maybe 10 billion dollars a year of US aid has something to do with it. But neither one gives them the right to do what they’re doing.

Pigface – Member
Can I just point out to Chewkw that it isn’t all sand. You seem fixated on this sand. Not sure you are trying to be clever or funny or something else entirely.

They do have nice white golden sand mind you …
Well to be precise it is the land but than land is sand innit in that region.

Do they have oil, ski resort, forest, jungle, lake, river or high mountains?
Nope, they don’t. They have sand! Plenty of it.

Nothing to do with fixation just that the place is full of sand. (very tempted to say sand people like in Star War 😆 )

deadlydarcy – Member

Can I just point out to Chewkw

No, Piggie, you really can’t. You can try. But it won’t work. So stop trying. [/quote]

Of course you can!
Please do so as I welcome all comments good or bad, funny or not.
This is STW forum and we/I like to debate issues …

deadlydarcy is not funny … 😆
Hey deadlydarcy what’s up? 😆

DrJ – Member
Thing is, they didn’t. They have never stopped increasing their settlement activity, or restricting the rights of Palestinians within their own “self controlled” areas. It gets to the stage now when the US President expresses concern at the rate of settlement and the Israeli PM tells him to go f*** himself. They are out of control.

Why is the Palestinian or Israeli land / sand got to do with you even if they kill each other to kingdom come?

Are you related to any of them? Do you live there? Do they have oil?

Nope … where is your logic?

DrJ … what Dr are you? Medical Dr? Engineering Dr? Sociology Dr? What?

😆

DrJ – Member

Is that not only as a direct result of what happened when they were not holding all the cards,

Maybe. And maybe 10 billion dollars a year of US aid has something to do with it. But neither one gives them the right to do what they’re doing. [/quote]

😆 So you have the rights then?

@Gonzy – And, if they did all that – do you think that it would bring peace… Or do you think it would be countdown to civil war?

@Gonzy – And, if they did all that – do you think that it would bring peace… Or do you think it would be countdown to civil war?

because everything is absolutely tickety boo right now isn’t it?
it cant get any worse now can it?
but then again Israel doesnt want to give back what it has stolen and doesnt want to be held accountable for the war crimes and human right violations it has committed thus far

what’s your solutions to this then?

Darcy I will take your advice next time, he is a sandwich short of a picnic.

it cant get any worse now can it?

It would get a lot better if the Pals would just stop firing rockets and trying to kill people – pointless throwing accusations of responsibility for war crimes etc at the Israelis without admitting the same by the Palestinians.

If it guaranteed peace, I can easily see Israel agreeing to ’67 borders and a two state solution.

I could even see them agreeing to something halfway between ’47 and ’67 – they have shown willingness to trade land for peace on numerous occasions before.

Although personally I’m convinced that, like negotiating bedtimes with my teenager, whatever they agreed to would never be enough, and the rockets and attacks would continue.

If it guaranteed peace, I can easily see Israel agreeing to ’67 borders and a two state solution.

You obviously have far too much faith in Netanyahu who has singlehandedly decimated any chance of peace for the foreseeable future.

Pigface – Member
Darcy I will take your advice next time, he is a sandwich short of a picnic.

Oh no … another one talking about someone to a second person right in front of them. You think that is alright then?

Are you practicing politely vile?

😆

and if the Israelis stopped stealing Palestinian land and building illegal settlements, and stopped trying to obliterate the Palestinian civilian infrastructure and actually killing people then maybe the Palestinians would stop throwing fireworks at them…

see, there’s always an excuse isn’t there?

Don’t you think perhaps the pals might get more sympathy if they stopped firing rockets and attacking people? It would remove any excuse that the Israelis had, the whole world would be forced to intervene.

If, as you say, they are only ‘fireworks’ and the iron dome stops them all – then what’s the point in firing them? Why not just stop and show the world just how evil the Joos really are?

Is that not only as a direct result of what happened when they were not holding all the cards, and remarkably managed to avoid being wiped off the map in three wars (Yom Kippur war they were outnumbered 100:1 in troops and 10:1 in armour)

Yes that is exactly what happened just like the Brave British [ with guns] took on the vastly larger number and inferior armed spear waving, Zulus to show how brave they were

Perhaps God intervened to help them – well either that or it was the shitloads of weaponry provided by America and the war was nothing like as asymetrical as you wish to suggest with your Jamby like grasp of figures and logic.

That’s right, it was totally like that!

(Well, if the Zulus had had 1000+ Russian tanks)

ninfan – Member

(Yom Kippur war they were outnumbered 100:1 in troops and 10:1 in armour)

Or, 3:1 in troops and 2:1 in tanks (of which the IDF’s were largely more modern) The often quoted 100:1 and 10:1 were only for the initial hours, til Israel mobilised- though it’s a reasonable mistake.

see, there’s always an excuse isn’t there?

And here’s yours …

Don’t you think perhaps the pals might get more sympathy if they stopped firing rockets and attacking people?

Or, 3:1 in troops and 2:1 in tanks (of which the IDF’s were largely more modern) The often quoted 100:1 and 10:1 were only for the initial hours, til Israel mobilised- though it’s a reasonable mistake.

Yeah, just like “purity of arms”, “greening the desert” and all the rest of the bullshit.

In hindsight should have typed ‘start of’ there NW, though it remains a remarkable feat, and it’s really quite arguable that the Israeli tanks were that much better than the soviet supplied ones (certianly the T62’s)

a read up on the pivotal role played by Zvika Greengold is pretty awe inspiring.

There is no logic whatsoever in you, yes you the Friend of this or that in BritLand, trying to escalate the problem in a foreign land/sand by pouring fuel on burning bush … then stoking the fire again.

You Friends of This or That… You bad! You evil!

You have no relatives over there.
You have no connection to that region.
You don’t believe in their religion(s).
You cannot find anything of value over there except vast sand desert.

Yet you want to stoke the fire to quicken them to ethnically cleansed each other …

Well done! Woohoo!

I salute you evilness … ya, but try not to get over excited coz you are still below me and you should bow down to me.

Coz I see you coming …

😆

edit: “Friends of This or That” … that is very funny … make me laugh every time I mentioned them.

I need to catch up on the thread properly as have been on the road today and off again now.

@Gonzy I direct questions at you as you have an opinion and are engaged in the debate. The fact you are Muslim adds perspective and I’m interested in that in particular. If this offends you I’ll stop.

Isreal isn’t building on Palestinain land, they fought a war with Jordan and won so they own it now. Their is of course the religious perspective that says it’s always been their land. There are plenty a lot more forceful than Netanyahu in their views.

DrJ, quite right Isreal should dispense with the Iron Dome and just let all those missiles rain down, it would create plenty of TV images of dead and maimed children which seem to sway public opinion.

Isreal isn’t building on Palestinain land, they fought a war with Jordan and won so they own it now

😯

I think I will just answer that with an appeal to authority as it seems to be the only think you debate with

I await your thrilling explanation of how your view and the international communities are at such odds……cant wait to read it

The International Court of Justice also says these settlements are illegal in a 2004 advisory opinion.[12][13][14] In April 2012, UN secretary general Ban Ki-Moon, in response to moves by Israel to legalise Israeli outposts, reiterated that all settlement activity is illegal, and “runs contrary to Israel’s obligations under the Road Map and repeated Quartet calls for the parties to refrain from provocations.”[15] Similar criticism was advanced by the EU and the US.[16][17] Israel disputes the position of the international community and the legal arguments that were used to declare the settlements illegal.[18]
The presence and ongoing expansion of existing settlements by Israel and the construction of settlement outposts is frequently criticized as an obstacle to the peace process by the Palestinians,[19] and third parties such as the OIC,[20] the United Nations,[21] Russia,[22] the United Kingdom,[23] France,[24] the European Union,[25] and the United States have echoed those criticisms.[21]

Therefore you must be wrong or the ones you appealed to as authorities were wrong. Which logical position do you like most for being wrong ?

If you were not such amusing own goals you would have to go the way of the chewkw

jambalaya – Member

@Gonzy I direct questions at you as you have an opinion and are engaged in the debate. The fact you are Muslim adds perspective and I’m interested in that in particular. If this offends you I’ll stop.

I come from a Muslim country (the govt insists that it is Muslim country).
I grew up in a Muslim village with good Muslim friends in the far east.
My best mate is a Muslim convert (he would starve if he does not).
We have many Muslim terrorist cells (they keep popping up here and there).
We have many Taliban like schools.
We have many race riots based on religion … ya, I know how they make that a connection I don’t know …

Hell! I can tell you they don’t like Jews but they certainly do not give a monkey about the piece of land that is desert sand. Their excuse is to use that trouble to destroy the Jews … 😆

Oh ya as usual I have always tempted my Muslim friends to eat pork or bacon even in a rather strict Muslim country.

Would normally cause a race riot or ethnic cleansing just by the mention of pork …

But hell pork chop tastes good! 😆

edit: Oh ya … the neigbouring islands always send their fanatic fighters over to kidnap some people to demand for ransom and for head cutting entertainment … yawn … yes, we do get them.

Don’t you think perhaps the pals might get more sympathy if they stopped firing rockets and attacking people? It would remove any excuse that the Israelis had, the whole world would be forced to intervene.

Come on, you can’t have any passing familiarity with Jewish or Israeli history and think that you can sit around and wait for other people’s sympathy to save you. Is that how the second aliyah happened? Is that how Israel was founded? Is that how the occupation has lasted so long? No! One way or another you have to take care of yourself, change the facts on the ground, and f*** other people’s sympathy or indignation.

The first intifada was precisely a reaction against the PLO’s poncing about in Tunis and Paris, writing long-winded declarations, and waiting for sympathy to overthrow the occupation.

The first intifada

IIRC, didn’t the pals kill more of their own lot fighting each other than the Israelis managed to?

ninfan

Isreal isn’t building on Palestinain land, they fought a war with Jordan and won so they own it now

honestly? just say, **** it, kill them all and i’ll respect you more.

IIRC, didn’t the pals kill more of their own lot fighting each other than the Israelis managed to?

1,087 [Palestinians killed:]
by Israeli security forces[3]
75 by Israeli civilians[3]
882 alleged collaborators were killed by other Palestinians[4]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Intifada

Still, a people united will never be defeated…oh

View from Palestinian Bassem Eid, founder and former director of the Jerusalem-based Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group.

“I am a proud Palestinian who grew up in a refugee camp and raised a large family. I want peace and prosperity for my people. I want an end to the misery and the destruction.

After 66 years of mistakes and missed opportunities, it is time for us Palestinians to create the conditions for peace and to work for a better future. It is time that we stopped pretending that we can destroy Israel or drive the Jews into the sea. It is time that we stopped listening to Muslim radicals or Arab regimes that use us to continue a pointless, destructive, and immoral war with Israel.

Let’s be realistic. We Palestinians are not doing well.

In Gaza, our schools are controlled by Muslim fanatics who indoctrinate our children, and Hamas uses our civilians as human shields in a losing battle against Israel. Hamas maintains power through violence, and it ensures that money is spent on its arsenal rather than on making the Palestinians’ lives better. While President Abbas is quick to denounce Israel whenever it attacks Hamas, he has absolutely no ability to stop Hamas from provoking Israel.

In the West Bank, while Abbas has been incapable of stopping the construction of Israeli settlements, the only good jobs are with Israeli companies, and the BDS (Boycott, Sanctions, and Divestment) movement is doing its best to take those jobs away from us. Abbas runs a corrupt dictatorship that uses international funds to consolidate its own administration rather than to develop the Palestinian economy.

In East Jerusalem, the PA is so mistrusted that most Palestinians would prefer to live under Israeli rule than under PA rule, and yet some of us seem unable to live in peace with the Jews.

In Palestinian camps in Arab countries, our human rights are constantly being violated, and we are simply used by our Arab hosts to further their own goals.

The facts about Israel

Despite what we tell ourselves, Israel is here to stay. What’s more, it has a right to exist. It is the nation of the Jews but also a nation for Israeli Arabs who have better lives than Arabs anywhere in Arab countries. We must accept these facts and move on. The antisemitism promoted by Hamas, Fatah, and the BDS movement is not the answer for us Palestinians.

The answer is to live in peace and democracy, side by side with Israel. We missed many opportunities to do that. We missed it in 1947 when Arab regimes encouraged us to refuse the UN partition plan. We missed it between 1948 and 1967 when we refused to create a state next to Israel. We missed it again every time after that when we refused a two-state solution presented to us.

Yet we know that Israelis want to live in peace, and that the vast majority of Israelis are friendly and neighborly. We know that Palestinian violence results in Israelis being discouraged about peace and electing ever more right-wing governments. We know that Egypt was able to secure a very favorable peace deal with Israel because Egypt agreed to accept Israel and to give up on violence. We know that the soft approach works with Israel, and yet we continue to use violence and extremist rhetoric.

Israel will never accept a large influx of Palestinians that would change the Jewish character of Israel. This means that insisting on the return of millions of refugees into Israel is pure delusion. In addition to this, the villages that we tell Palestinian refugees that they will one day return to no longer exist. We are simply lying to ourselves.

A new approach

To make peace with Israel, we need to change our approach. We need to accept that the right of return will be resolved through financial compensation that will allow Palestinian refugees to settle either in Arab countries or in Palestine. We need to accept that Israel’s security is a key to any solution. We need to accept that East Jerusalem may have to remain part of Israel.

Our most important change in approach, however, and one with which we need the help of the international community, is that we need a democratically elected and secular government that responds to the needs of our people. As I wrote in August 2008 with Nathan Sharansky, a former Soviet dissident and the author of the book “The Case for Democracy”, there won’t be peace without democracy. As long as the so-called Palestinian leader is able to use international funds towards consolidating his own network of corrupt cronies, Palestinians will not trust him and will look to the alternative, which sadly happens to be Hamas.

As Sharansky and I wrote in 2008, the Israeli and international rationale that strengthening a non-democratic corrupt leader will ensure that he is “able to fight Hamas and forge a final peace with Israel” does not work. Almost seven years later, it is even clearer that this approach leads nowhere. President Abbas has no credibility among Palestinians, and even if he wanted a peace deal (which seems doubtful), he has no ability to sell it to the Palestinian public.

What we Palestinians need is a strong civil society and strong democratic institutions, and we need an end to human rights violations, including those perpetrated by Palestinians and other Arabs. Well-meaning international donors must ensure that their money is spent towards this goal, and not towards propping up either Hamas or Fatah. There is no doubt that much work is needed, but at the very least we need to reverse the current trend that is causing Palestinian society to drift even further towards corrupt and brutal rule, both in Gaza and in the West Bank. Ironically, it is only in East Jerusalem, under Israeli rule, that most Palestinians feel adequately represented by their politicians.

Hope for the future

Despite our current predicament, I believe that our future will be bright if we do what is needed to achieve peace. We can have a secular democracy that pursues our own best interests. We can live in peace with Israel and the Jews, and we can benefit from Israel’s economic success and democratic values. We have it within our power to transform a long-time enemy into a friend. We have a choice, and we can exercise that choice towards a better future for our people.”

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