Is it racist…

Evidently so, and yet here we all are, 14 pages, of what exactly?

Nobody is going to change their mind.
Not true, The OP’s Chinese friend seems to have changed his mind.

So it’s a purely one-way street Tom? Once a word like “apple”, “banana” or “Charlie” is contaminated by an offensive racial connotation then it can never again be used by white people?

But yet, as discussed, some words do get successfully rehabilitated and appropriation does help with that. “Gay” is frequently used as an offensive insult, for example, but still seems to be okay for straights to use inoffensively. I suspect that’s primarily because the LGBTQ+ community have appropriated it.

Perhaps people ahoukd stop tarnishing perfectly good words like “apple” then??? Is that offensive now?

In actual fact, rehabilitating the N word would be like turning Auschwitz into a science park. Both are historical monuments to huge injustices and serve as reminders to us all, one is just literary and the other physical.

It’s quite simple, don’t be a dick to people. You’re going out of your way to make excuses for being a dick.

Reminds me of this in Sheffield.

That makes my eyes hurt!

In the meanwhile, members get themselves banned.

I thought folks only got banned or warned if other folks complain or report a post

Reminds me of this in Sheffield.

That makes my eyes hurt![/quote]

Sheffield?

I thought folks only got banned or warned if other folks complain or report a post

You thought incorrectly.

Sheffield?

😆

Who said it is okay, what have you based that on ?

😯

I’ve based that on what I observe to be the acceptable norms in our society? Which as far as I can tell have been informed by the language used by LGBTQ+ campaigners, prominent acclivous horticulturists and comfortable shoe wearers?

Harking back to the “oriental” argument: if they felt that “gay” was an insult then referring to their community as LGBTQ+ and campaigning for “gay rights” would be a bit of an own goal.

Perhaps people ahoukd stop tarnishing perfectly good words like “apple” then???

Well absolutely, but if we had control of what bigots say then none of this would be a problem would it?

(Except perhaps the arguing about who the bigots are of course)

Is that offensive now?

Well “apple” is on the Wikipedia List of Ethnic Slurs referenced earlier, along with “banana” and “Charlie” – so I guess so yes. Since the 1970s in fact.

It’s quite simple, don’t be a dick to people. You’re going out of your way to make excuses for being a dick.

I’m really not.

I’m exploring some of the interesting moral and philosophical issues, ambiguities, contradictions and difficulties around offence and language – which I think is the topic of this thread.

“Apple” is used primaitily by Native American Indians in regards to other Native American Indians who are deemed to have lost their cultural identity.

Yup, definately a racist word that – despite it not being a word that is used from a position of social power. Predjudiced and offensive yes, racist no unless a white person uses it as an insult. Which it seems they rarely do.

You still don’t get it.

This seems like a “they took our jerbs” argument anyway, you’re using “they took our words” to excuse your use of words – and youre blaming the victim for the offence caused.

racist no unless a white person uses it as an insult. Which it seems they rarely do.

Well that’s seems like a pretty bizarre rule!

you’re ising “they took our words” to excuse your use of words

Not sure where you think I’ve done that – but it’s not my intention.

I may not be the most culturally delicate person in the world, but I’m certainly not in the habit of using racially offensive words.

youre blaming the victim for the offence caused.

No, I’m arguing that intent and context matters a lot.

Last time I checked the N word is still offensive, appropriating the word is instead about giving those groups a sense of control and pride. That doesn’t mean that you are free to use it.

What if I’m a white rapper? They get to use the N word. Can I have a comprehensive list (preferably with bullet points) outlining which subsections of society are allowed to use certain words? It’s all becoming rather confusing.

I’ve based that on what I observe to be the acceptable norms in our society? Which as far as I can tell have been informed by the language used by LGBTQ+ campaigners, prominent acclivous horticulturists and comfortable shoe wearers?

Harking back to the “oriental” argument: if they felt that “gay” was an insult then referring to their community as LGBTQ+ and campaigning for “gay rights” would be a bit of an own goal.

FFS – the word “gay” is not offensive when used to mean, er, “gay” but it becomes offensive when that is then used instead as an insult, because for it to work as an insult, you have to accept the premise that being gay is a bad thing.

My friend Jim is gay (accurately describing how he identifies re. his sexual orientation) – not offensive

Jim’s car is so gay (suggesting that there is something wrong with his car, that it perhaps isn’t ‘macho’ enough, or is underpowered, or maybe it’s sprayed a nice pastel colour) – offensive

Yes it is racist. If someone said this to my sister-in law I would not be happy.

I’m exploring some of the interesting moral and philosophical issues, ambiguities, contradictions and difficulties around offence and language – which I think is the topic of this thread.

It looks like you are doing that so that you can find circumstances or justification for using terminology which many consider to be racist or homophobic.

Indeed, thankyou edlong.

What if I’m a white rapper? They get to use the N word. Can I have a comprehensive list (preferably with bullet points) outlining which subsections of society are allowed to use certain words? It’s all becoming rather confusing.

is it a word you want to use? If so, go ahead, use it, knock yourself out, or someone might do that for you

It looks like you are doing that so that you can find circumstances or justification for using terminology which many consider to be racist or homophobic.

Well C******M*****, looks can be deceiving, but I’ll try not to be too offended by your assumptions. 😉

then why are you doing it?

Thought I covered that C******? I’m doing it because I find it an interesting and nuanced topic to discuss.

Presumably you do too or you wouldn’t be here?

is it a word you want to use? If so, go ahead, use it, knock yourself out, or someone might do that for you

Did I say that, no. As others have already said whether a word is offensive or not comes down to two things, context and whether the individual finds that word offensive. I don’t find the N word offensive as I have no frame of reference. I’m a white Yorkshire man. I have friends who are black and don’t find it offensive. I would react if I witnessed somebody using the word against another with the intent of causing emotional distress.

In simply pointing to the absurdity of stating who is and isn’t allowed to use a word. So, can a white or Hispanic rapper use it?

Yes it is racist. If someone said this to my sister-in law I would not be happy.

Same here. Mind you, she’s French.

FFS – the word “gay” is not offensive when used to mean, er, “gay” but it becomes offensive when that is then used instead as an insult, because for it to work as an insult, you have to accept the premise that being gay is a bad thing.

Thought exercise:

The word “****” is not offensive when used to mean Pakistani but it becomes offensive when that is then used instead as an insult, because for it to work as an insult, you have to accept the premise that being a Pakistani is a bad thing.

Why does that not pan out?

In simply pointing to the absurdity of stating who is and isn’t allowed to use a word. So, can a white or Hispanic rapper use it?

Are you one of those?

There are some small, often intersectional groups for whom it is difficult to generalise. What does it matter what the answer is? What if i said Yes? What if i said No?

In simply pointing to the absurdity of stating who is and isn’t allowed to use a word. So, can a white or Hispanic rapper use it?

The word “****” is not offensive when used to mean Pakistani

It is

but it becomes offensive when that is then used instead as an insult, because for it to work as an insult, you have to accept the premise that being a Pakistani is a bad thing.

it does

for it to work as an insult, you have to accept the premise that being gay is a bad thing.

And y’know, I’m not certain that’s strictly true either. Any old thing highlighting a distinguishing characteristic can get thrown into an insult; “you lanky bastard” for instance – does that imply that there’s something wrong with being tall? Or is the catch-all “wrongness” here simply someone being different in some way?

(I’m not expressing any particular view or argument either here or in my previous post BTW, just offering discussion because it’s kinda fascinating.)

“you lanky bastard”

You handsome bastard, seems less of an insult because no one would see that as being a negative thing.

Edit, just to be sure, i’m not calling you a handsome bastard, Cougar.

well, I half am.

If you are insulting someone, then you would chose something which you would consider a negative trait, otherwise it would be possibly a compliment

On a recent holiday the Americans we met called us Brits and, by the same token, when referring to Pakistanis, called them Paks. Anyone offended here?

Are you one of those?

There are some small, often intersectional groups for whom it is difficult to generalise. What does it matter what the answer is? What if i said Yes? What if i said No?

Does it make them racist to use the word? Considering multicultural hip hop bands like Cypress Hill. Is the mc being racist towards his band mates or is the word okay in the context in which he’s using it?

I’m not ‘one of those’ I’m simply trying to ascertain whether or not the word can be used by people who haven’t been affected by its historical use without it being racist. Popular music would certainly point to that being the case.

Do a bunch of middle aged part timer mountain bikers get to decide what words can be used by which people?

It is

Yes, I know it is, that wasn’t the point. Rather, why can’t we apply the same logic to that word? Is it because “gay” has been reclaimed by homosexual people and thus become ‘disarmed’? Or because the public has come to accept that being gay isn’t inherently a bad thing?

Jim’s car is so gay (suggesting that there is something wrong with his car, that it perhaps isn’t ‘macho’ enough, or is underpowered, or maybe it’s sprayed a nice pastel colour) – offensive

but not offensive to other people, just because certain people are offended by something doesn’t mean its wrong or right.

To quote Stephen Fry

“It’s now very common to hear people say, ‘I’m rather offended by that.’ As if that gives them certain rights. It’s actually nothing more… than a whine. ‘I find that offensive.’ It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. ‘I am offended by that.’ Well, so **** what”

and Christopher Hitchens

“If someone tells me that I’ve hurt their feelings, I say, ‘I’m still waiting to hear what your point is.’ In this country, I’ve been told, ‘That’s offensive,’ as if those two words constitute an argument or a comment. Not to me they don’t. And I’m not running for anything, so I don’t have to pretend to like people when I don’t.”

Is it because “gay” has been reclaimed by homosexual people and thus become ‘disarmed’? Or because the public has come to accept that being gay isn’t inherently a bad thing?

Except those who call non-gay things gay.

I think gay is ok to describe gay things, i’m not sure that it ever wasn’t. So, i don’t really know how much reclaiming has gone on, but if it is used in a derogatory sense to describe something you don’t like then it is not ok.

You handsome bastard, seems less of an insult because no one would see that as being a negative thing.

Interesting counterpoint. I chose “lanky” as the first thing I could think of that wasn’t an insult; yours is positive, mine is not negative.

Are folk predisposed to latching on to any distinguishing feature in an argument? Or is it a way of subconsciously trying to make people think there -is- something wrong with that feature? Or is it an attack on a potential insecurity maybe, touch a nerve or exploit a weakness? Or is it just that some people never grow out of playground name-calling?

Edit, just to be sure, i’m not calling you a handsome bastard, Cougar.

well, I half am.

My parents weren’t married when I was born, shouldn’t I find that deeply offensive?

My parents weren’t married when I was born, shouldn’t I find that deeply offensive?

You think that made you handsome?

To quote Stephen Fry

There’s a hairy Australian (IIRC) comedian who does a stand-up routine on this, I’ll see if I can find it.

I understand your point Cougar and it’s kinda what I was trying to get at earlier too: banning a word from general usage just abandons it to the bigots. And I’m sure that can work. But disarming/reclaiming the word instead takes that power back from the bigots. It’s an interesting process.

I think gay is ok to describe gay things,

That’s brilliant in its absurdity!

Here you go Cougar – a brilliant comedian

Interesting counterpoint. I chose “lanky” as the first thing I could think of that wasn’t an insult; yours is positive, mine is not negative.

but lanky bastard was framed as an insult, and some people see that it is a negative thing, so it would be used in trying to be insulting. i used handsome because it makes the insult sound ridiculous because no one sees handsome as a negative trait

Ah, here. Steve Hughes.

EDIT: beaten to it! Ta. The full sketch is here and worth a watch (he even mentions bikes): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl6lX08MXDI

You think that made you handsome?

Ah, the old ‘bait and switch,’ well played.