Is it racist…

Well yes, it is- people intentionally use the wrong gender terms to insult people

Rarely towards women though, people tend use better inaults like “bitch”.

“She fell over”, as used in football.

Kill me.
Kill me now.

if defining J by their sexuality were relevant, Could you say the define themselves as queer?

quite, assuming that is was relevant, I couldn’t be arsed to contrive a reason but that was supposed to be a given. I’ve thought about that formula “they describe themselves as queer” but, hypersensitive, professionally offended snowflake that I am, I worry that that potentially sounds judgmental – “SHE describes herself as queer” perhaps implying that it’s not a description I’m happy with, when fundamentally, I am more than happy with it (I’m not LGBTQI* myself so have no personal angle on it).

Tom_W1987 – Member

Rarely towards women though

I know a woman who is known as Dave because she looks like a bloke.

If someone self-identifies to me as q**** then am I allowed to describe them as q****?

I suppose this is broadly analogous to “****.” A black guy might greet a friend with “‘sup, ****?” but if I did the same thing it’d almost certainly end badly.

Queer is a, uh, queer one. It has largely been reappropriated, but I don’t think it’s a term I’d be comfortable using unless the person I was referring to had expressed the opinion that that’s how they wanted to be described. Seems to be the usual case with most of the LGBTetc folk I know TBH, just ask rather than assuming. As you might expect with a diverse group of people, everyone is different.

Such as an auntie with balls?

Now, you’re getting it!

“She fell over”, as used in football.

Kill me.
Kill me now.

Of course.

If a sizeaebke amount of women want to change how they are referred to, eg gender neutral language….I don’t mind.

Itd be great for the Daily Mail reaction alone.

We could reintroduce “Thy” under a different role.

goes on to write a further 6 paragraphs debating if a word is offensive and/or oppressive

to be fair, what I’ve done is provide some contextual background to one bit of the debate based on a relatively informed position. I’m not seeking to impose my personal view on what is or isn’t offensive, I’m relaying what some people have had to say on the matter.

Whether “it’s offensive” or not is something I’m always surprised by the vigour of the debate on, cos I reckon it’s pretty simple based on dictionary definitions – did that word or deed cause offence? If “yes” then it is offensive, to the person it had that effect on at least.

The debate becomes about whether we’re okay with causing offence, whether we are happy to say “well I don’t think it’s offensive so I’ll keep doing / saying it” or whether we might say “well, I don’t think it’s offensive, but since you do, I’ll respect that and not say / do it again” – to me this logic works regardless of the “-ism” being wrestled with.

Now, you’re getting it!

No, I really don’t think I am. 😕

You’re deliberately using a cisgender-specific pronoun to describe my trans / gender-fluid relative, with direct reference to their genitals. And Tom assures us this is fine.

But at the same time I shouldn’t use the word “queer” because I’m straight.

Y’know sometimes I think people just decide to be bigots because it’s easier!
If you are always going to insult someone no matter what your intention then why not just go for it? At least if you hate everyone you don’t have to constantly worry about people getting the wrong end of the stick 😀

You’re deliberately using a cisgender-specific pronoun to describe my trans / gender-fluid relative, with direct reference to their genitals. And Tom assures us this is fine.

I’m deliberately using the phrase so that you are able to deconstruct it to see why it might be problematic

You might have noticed that the phrasing is not that which i would normally use in discussions.

I reckon it’s pretty simple based on dictionary definitions

Where do you stand on “oriental” then? 😉

Well I successfully got CM debating appropriate substitutions for “chink of light” and why chink is non-equivalent to a word which is in the swear filter which he wants to use in a way he claims is non-offensive. I don’t think we’ve done that before, but whether you consider it interesting is another matter!

I’m deliberately using the phrase so that you are able to deconstruct it to see why it might be problematic

But Tom says it is NOT problematic because: “she” isnt really used as as an insult..is it.

So if the forum’s two foremost wringers can’t decide, what chance does an insensitive ill-educated barbarian jock like me have?

But Tom says it is NOT problematic because: “she” isnt really used as as an insult..is it.

So if the forum’s two foremost wringers can’t decide, what chance does an insensitive ill-educated barbarian jock like me have?

but you have decided, and responded in quite an enlightened manner.

it doesn’t really conflict with Tom’s statement as i interpreted'”isn’t really used” to mean something akin to ‘commonly’ or ‘often’.

Well I successfully got CM debating appropriate substitutions for “chink of light” and why chink is non-equivalent to a word which is in the swear filter which he wants to use in a way he claims is non-offensive. I don’t think we’ve done that before, but whether you consider it interesting is another matter!

that was no challenge, as you saw at the time, i relish such a game, i think the success was getting you to play despite you first saying that you wouldn’t

Well it is, it’s just rarely used as one directly towards women. It is indirectly used as an insult – which I mostly forgot because I don’t hang out with football fans.

Especially my liberal use of the c-word

What? Coatrack?

14 pages.

22 pages.

Edit
jonnyboi – Member

Wow, racists people can be really obtuse when they want to excuse their behaviour.

but you have decided, and responded in quite an enlightened manner.

..for a jock? 😉

I didn’t realised you played sports

CharlieMungus – Member

I didn’t realize you played sports

See? There you go, making assumptions about forum members.
It’ll come to no good!

What “ist” could you now be at risk of being called?

Whether “it’s offensive” or not is something I’m always surprised by the vigour of the debate on, cos I reckon it’s pretty simple based on dictionary definitions – did that word or deed cause offence? If “yes” then it is offensive, to the person it had that effect on at least.

That’s not simple at all, it’s quite complex. Effectively you’re saying that something being “offensive” is subjective. Which it is, because…

The debate becomes about whether we’re okay with causing offence,

… offence isn’t something that’s caused, it’s something which is taken.

You can take offence quite justifiably, if someone has said something obnoxious; you can take offence less justifiably, I once had a woman deeply offended at my blatant sexism because I held a door open for her (rather than slamming it in her face, I suppose); and you can choose not to take offence at something which is “obviously” offensive, such when my mate called me a c-bomb the other day.

The state of something inherently “being offensive” is not clear cut. You can say whether something is likely to cause a large number of people to take offence perhaps, or a small number of people, or a particular demographic.

@cougar

I don’t think that makes it too complicated. I just need to ask myself one question “will this thing I’m about to say cause offence to some or all of the people who’ll hear it”

If the answer is no then all is groovy

if the answer is yes then I can make a choice to either not say it, or say it anyway, accepting that it will cause offence.

True. But what if the thing you’re about to say would cause offence to people who aren’t around to hear it? Is that ok too?

“True. But what if the thing you’re about to say would cause offence to people who aren’t around to hear it? Is that ok too?”

…and what if you’re about to *do* something that would cause offence to people if they knew you were doing it. Is that OK?

outofbreath – Member

…and what if you’re about to *do* something that would cause offence to people if they knew you were doing it. Is that OK?

I reckon that would depend on whether it was a Tuesday afternoon or a Friday morning, at the time.

“I reckon that would depend on whether it was a Tuesday afternoon or a Friday morning.”

Even suggesting doing it on a Tuesday morning is offensive.

outofbreath – Member

“I reckon that would depend on whether it was a Tuesday afternoon or a Friday morning.”

Even suggesting doing it on a Tuesday morning is offensive.

Ah! But what if I was wearing a leopard skin print bikini, on a Monday afternoon, while waiting at the check out in Morrisons?

That may be true for swear words. If everyone openly used the word c**t it would just become another word along the lines of any other minor swear words (and not be filtered out on a forum!)

However, if everyone used racist terms for other people I don’t believe they become less offensive, in fact I think it makes the problem even worse.

As with queer and the LBGT community, if Chinese people chose to use the word Chink or Chinky it would begin to rob it of it’s power and racist connotations over time. It also depends on the individual as to whether or not they’d take offence. Then again I’m a white male who has suffered no racism in his life and finds no words offensive. Therefore I’m probably not best placed to decide whether or not a word is offensive or outright racist.

What about numbers, are there any racist numbers?

*looks at 7 with suspicion – I’m on to you!

Solo/outofbreath , can you two please learn to use the quote button.
It’s like reading a transcript of my Nan telling a story.

nealglover – Member

Solo/outofbreath , can you two please learn to use the quote button.
It’s like reading a transcript of my Nan telling a story.

Does your Nan suffer uncontrollable body hair.
I do and combined with a bikini, well, it’s down right offensive…

You’re seeing pictures now, ain’t ya!

Appropriation by ethnic minorities of offensive words doesn’t rehabilitate that word for white people to use. Last time I checked the N word is still offensive, appropriating the word is instead about giving those groups a sense of control and pride. That doesn’t mean that you are free to use it.

Is that so hard to underatand?

Tom_W1987 – Member

Is that so hard to underatand?

Evidently so, and yet here we all are, 14 pages, of what exactly?

Nobody is going to change their mind. The offended will remain offended, the educators will try, in vain, to educate.
It won’t amount to a hill O’beans.

Carry on!

While we are talking of banning words….

Can we ban people who can happily use the italics button, but refuse to use the quote button that’s just 3 doors up ?

No.

[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

I’m surprised you’re commenting about offence and being offended in a humorous way Solo, didn’t you have a little incident where other users got banned because you were upset by what they’d said about you?

Seriously I thought you’d understand how things get taken out of context and would have more sympathy for the potential to upset people?

Hehe. I like that.

Reminds me of this in Sheffield.

So it’s a purely one-way street Tom? Once a word like “apple”, “banana” or “Charlie” is contaminated by an offensive racial connotation then it can never again be used by white people?

But yet, as discussed, some words do get successfully rehabilitated and appropriation does help with that. “Gay” is frequently used as an offensive insult, for example, but still seems to be okay for straights to use inoffensively. I suspect that’s primarily because the LGBTQ+ community have appropriated it.

Can we ban people who can happily use the italics button, but refuse to use the quote button that’s just 3 doors up ?

May be because the quote button and all the other options doesn’t appear for everyone. It doesn’t appear for me so I have to manually type in the word quote and the square brackets every time though.

I still take the time to do it though as I was brought up well.

“Gay” is frequently used as an offensive insult, for example, but still seems to be okay for straights to use inoffensively

Who said it is okay, what have you based that on ?

Terry Wrist – Member

I’m surprised you’re commenting about offence and being offended in a humorous way Solo, didn’t you have a little incident where other users got banned because you were upset by what they’d said about you?

On the face of it, you’d think lots of members would lurv to ban others. However, upon further reflection, I wouldn’t want that power or that job. Think about that.

In the meanwhile, members get themselves banned. So as much as some members irritate other forum members, it’s only by their own hand they are smote by the keepers of the ban hammer.

I hope that clears things up for you.
😉