God and the Afterlife……?

As a modern, wooly, liberal Christian, you get to pick and choose which parts to follow.

I should have added: though your bishops (if you’re an Anglican) will use their unelected position in the House of lords to vote against marriage equality and some priests will place petitions against it in their churches for their congregations to sign.

Oh I don’t know, when the Chistians came along they basically wrote Bible 2.0 as the new testament (NT). If you compare the vengeful, angry god of the old testament wih the forgiving and self sacrificing (holy trinity assumptions of course) god of the NT it’s a pretty dramatic difference.

Can I just point out that the New Testament isn’t a replacement for the Old Testament, merely an addition. Nowhere in the NT does it say ‘ignore that last book’. In fact, the character ‘Jesus’ actually says that the character ‘God’s’ word is the law’ (or something along those lines) somewhere in the NT (I’ll Google it if you’re too lazy).

Good grief, that is not a very bright post I’m afraid.

Belief in God does not necessarily mean following religious doctrine, or being Muslim, Christian etc
Belief in God does not necessarily mean believing in creationism or intelligent design

It’s irrelevant. Just believing in nonsense allows the other people who believe in the same (or similar) nonsense AND DO follow religious doctrine to get away with what they do.

How many would actually believe the nonsense if no one else did? Very few I suggest. How many would believe in science? A great many I think, because it’s there staring you in the face day to day.

The Bible is a tough book to get to grips with and I really should have a better handle on it. I try to live my life, NOW, how I think God wants me to. A lot of that comes from the Bible and a fair bit from how I think God is answering my prayers and the occasional hedging my bets when I’m not sure.

Defending the whole Bible, literally, is a tough gig and I don’t know how to interpret a lot of the Leviticus stuff etc. There’s plenty of stuff online that helps argue one way or the other but as this thread shows, nothing definitive. Incidentally I do cut the sides of my hair and trim the corners of my beard and have a tattoo, all of which is potentially dodgy ground. I also ‘sin’ on a regular basis, (whilst trying not to) so am in no position to be casting stones, as it were.

My experience of a relationship with God convinces me of His existence, but will hold little water with most other people, I accept. I guess that’s what faith is though, isn’t it.

Incidentally I wouldn’t call a scientifically based atheism ‘stupid’ as someone suggested I might. I actually think it makes a lot of sense and is far from stupid; but for me it doesn’t make as much sense as there being a god.

As for doing a new version it is just like the American Constitution. It made sense at the time frame in which it was written , right to bear arms, but it is outdated for modern life.
However the problem is as they say it is the word of god how do the update or modernise it without a prophet or messenger of god?

Yeah, that’s an obstacle. Kind of wondered how it works though, as I’m pretty sure there’s a few different versions of the bible – how do you know which one is right!:)

Both yes and no – the basis message of Jesus – loy thy enemeny as thy self, do unto others as you would have done on to you, turn the other cheek etc are all excellent maxims for life and the central message is a good one. however what they have actually done is less nice.

I think my argument here is that you can’t really blame the bible (or christianity? Hmm, need to think on that one!) if people read something into it that’s different from the core message. I’m not a religious person, but I’ve got a lot of respect for the positive things that the bible teaches, the love thy enemy and do unto others stuff, but I don’t see a link between those sweeping and (in these times) positive statements and, say, the Westboro Baptist Church parading outside the funeral of an American soldier with placards saying that god killed him because he was a fag, and I don’t see it as a fair statement to blame the bible (or christianity) on their behaviour. Those are, of course, opposite ends of the spectrum, and there’s bound to be a big old grey bit in the middle… 🙂

… but the history of religion is not the history of tolerance and respect for dissenting voices, even when they come from within their own faith

I’m not sure if that’s limited to prople of faith, though.

This thread… 😯

That is all.

#faithinreasonisaformofmysticismafterall

How many would actually believe the nonsense if no one else did? Very few I suggest.

And I think that’s kind of where we came in. 🙂

Went to church a couple of weekends ago, and the vicar related the story of a dinner party he was at where they were discussing the afterlife, and one of the other guests said “but how do we know? No-one’s ever come back to say?” And the vicar said “one person has!” I’d have been interested to see how the rest of that panned out. 🙂

The thing is, I’ve got no doubt that the vicar (who is, can I add, an exceedingly nice man) is absolutely, positively 100% convinced that Jesus came back from the dead. I’m also reasonably sure that Tucker for example is pretty convinced that he didn’t. I don’t know if it can be proved either way, so who can say who’s right? (I don’t think he came back from the dead, FWIW 🙂 )

Kind of wondered how it works though, as I’m pretty sure there’s a few different versions of the bible

IIRC (could be dead wrong) those aren’t “different editions” they are translations and rewording for modern parlance supposedly the message is still supposedly the same – but seem to remember a lot of people getting uppity about the king james bible not being used in services and the lords prayer getting reworded. Seemingly minor changes are a touchy subject.
Wiki for KJ but I_N_R_A_T_S at the moment.

How many would actually believe the nonsense if no one else did?

there’s probably a point in there. Believing your invisible friend talks to you and guides you through life calls your mental faculties in to question. Several thousand* people believing the same is religion.

*I’m not sure of the threshold.

and the vicar related the story of a dinner party he was at where they were discussing the afterlife, and one of the other guests said “but how do we know? No-one’s ever come back to say?” And the vicar said “one person has!”

Well that vicar doesn’t have a very good knowledge of the bible as he clearly forgot about Lazarus!

My experience of a relationship with God convinces me of His existence,

This is called “Having a hallucination.”

the Westboro Baptist Church parading outside the funeral of an American soldier with placards saying that god killed him because he was a fag, and I don’t see it as a fair statement to blame the bible (or christianity) on their behaviour.

that’s exactly the point. The westboro baptists can simply point to leviticus and say we’re sending gods message here, the bible is where they get their authority from and christianity as a whole not renouncing that nasty stuff enables the situation to continue.

I should have added: though your bishops (if you’re an Anglican) will use their unelected position in the House of lords to vote against marriage equality and some priests will place petitions against it in their churches for their congregations to sign

This is where I think the CofE has a particularly difficult job. They are involved in culture and politics. People expect them to have a voice on incredibly difficult and complex issues. I don’t think our laws should enforce Christian doctrine but equally I don’t think a church should be made to marry people if it doesn’t think it’s right. I know of some vicars who won’t marry divorcees for example…..at least I think that’s what I think.

…christianity as a whole not renouncing that nasty stuff enables the situation to continue.

But it doesn’t matter if they DO renounce it.

‘We’ve altered our make-belief stuff now’ doesn’t alter the fact that’s it’s make-belief stuff, which in itself is a bit worrying, but of course gives other peoples ‘make-belief stuff’ validity (to some).

Well that vicar doesn’t have a very good knowledge of the bible as he clearly forgot about Lazarus!

Heh! Maybe that was who he meant – I dunno, I ain’t calling him on it! 🙂

I think my argument here is that you can’t really blame the bible (or christianity? Hmm, need to think on that one!) if people read something into it that’s different from the core message.

It depends though as some of the messages do detract from the central message so its a bit of both. Clearly humans are fallible and capable of acts of great cruelty whether religious or otherwise and its clearly not the case that we would all be lovely to each other if there was no religion. Has it made this better or worse. In all honesty i dont know.

I’m not sure if that’s limited to prople of faith, though.

No argument from me its is not for sure

faithinreasonisaformofmysticismafterall

#theydontknowwhatthewordsmean

that’s exactly the point. The westboro baptists can simply point to leviticus and say we’re sending gods message here, the bible is where they get their authority from and christianity as a whole not renouncing that nasty stuff enables the situation to continue.

But how can that be reconciled with “do unto others” and all that gubbins? As convinced as they are that they’re right, I’m equally as convinced that their interpretation of the bible is incorrect.

I dunno – this all made sense about half an hour ago, and now I’m all confuzzed. 😕

My experience of a relationship with God convinces me of His existence

This is called “Having a hallucination.”

It’s quite a good one!

It may well be bit the question is whether it is an accurate one!

My experience of a relationship with God convinces me of His existence,

If i commune with terry wogan A N Other and heard his voice or that rock over there telling me what to do how many folk would have respect for my beliefs?
How many would listen to my heartfelt impassioned plea that it was real, that you lacked faith and that you could not prove it was false?

I like the fact the catholic church all pray to god for guidance on the new pope and then they have to have a vote – WHY? if they have a chat surely god says the same thing to them all so why the need for a vote?

It may well be bit the question is whether it is an accurate one!

My experience of a relationship with God convinces me of His existence,

Well, in simplistic terms, we’ll either find out it is or it isn’t or we still don’t know when we/I die. Until then I’m happy believing it’s real. What I can say is that it shapes my thoughts and actions such that I am more honest, generous, thoughtful and tolerant than if I didn’t…I think.

I like the fact the catholic church all pray to god for guidance on the new pope and then they have to have a vote – WHY? if they have a chat surely god says the same thing to them all so why the need for a vote?

Democratic voting is a key biblical principle…. 😕

and the vicar related the story of a dinner party he was at where they were discussing the afterlife, and one of the other guests said “but how do we know? No-one’s ever come back to say?” And the vicar said “one person has!”

Well that vicar doesn’t have a very good knowledge of the bible as he clearly forgot about Lazarus!

As I understand it, the Christian afterlife isn’t actually about going up to heaven after you die (pearly gates and all that), it’s about a bodily resurrection and a new kingdom on Earth. So, Jesus and Lazarus didn’t go to heaven or experience an afterlife and then come back, they died and were dead for a number of days and then came back to life.

No heaven, no afterlife. Dead.

It’s only in the times described in Revelation that people come back from the dead, to live on Earth in a new Jerusalem.

Your dead grannie isn’t watching over you, she’s in a hole in the ground until Jesus comes back.

There are lots of possible interpretations of what heaven is. Jesus did actually say I am going to be with my father, so interpret that as you will.

My take on it is that heaven is being with God and Hell is not. I don’t much care for the detail; it doesn’t make a lot of difference now.

Jesus did actually say I am going to be with my father, so interpret that as you will.

That was after his resurrection and before his ascension wasn’t it? Not before his death.

Heaven is where Jesus and God and the angels are. After the second coming, heaven will be on Earth.

Democratic voting is a key biblical principle..

I think junkyard is saying if they all speak to god why doesn’t god say “candidate B FTW” and all the voters (cardinals?) finish their prayer, turn to each other and say “candidate B eh? sure let’s get the invites written for the inauguration party” – if they are all talking to god surely it would be unanimous by gods direction not a majority vote…?

But it doesn’t matter if they DO renounce it.

another fair point,
Moderates “our religion doesn’t believe/interpret the persecution of X anymore”
Fundamentalist “well ours does so pass the hate placards this way”
but the moderate religions would atleast be distancing themselves rather than at the moment westboro possibly being seen (open to interpretation) as the fringe of the christian faith who might be saying things the others still believe but are too scared to say.

But how can that be reconciled with “do unto others” and all that gubbins?

I’m not religious (did you guess? 🙂 ) so not my problem, it’s upto the religion itself to make sense of the contradictory pile of books that have been (mis)remembered, passed on verbally, written, translated, rewritten and translated a bit more over the years.

I’m equally as convinced that their interpretation of the bible is incorrect.

interpreting the bible as a whole is a hell of an undertaking, interpreting that verse in leviticus as junkyard points out seems to be very cut and dried, but as noted, lots of people just ignore it.

I don’t know if it can be proved either way, so who can say who’s right?

Also applies to:

You owing me £1,000,000
Me being a time traveller
Unicorns
Mermaids
Etc, etc.

Something either has concrete peer reviewed court admissible evidence to support it, or it doesn’t. In the later case in can safely be dismissed as false.

Jesus did actually say I am going to be with my father, so interpret that as you will.

The character Jesus supposedly said…

Just saying.

Don’t ever become a Policeman. 😉

It’s only in the times described in Revelation that people come back from the dead, to live on Earth in a new Jerusalem.

Well, that’ll do, won’t it? 🙂

Jesus did actually say I am going to be with my father, so interpret that as you will.

In John 20:17:

Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'”

This was after the resurrection, so while he was dead he wasn’t in the afterlife or in heaven. Nobody who lived has been to heaven and then come back.

The priest at the dinner party who said at least one person had is clearly wrong, even within the self-contained logic/reality of the bible and their beliefs.

Well, that’ll do, won’t it?

As above, the vicar at the dinner party was wrong.

DONK is correct re the vote point

The character Jesus supposedly said…

Just saying.

Don’t ever become a Policeman.

Ha ha, fair point.

I’m not religious (did you guess? ) so not my problem, it’s upto the religion itself to make sense of the contradictory pile of books that have been (mis)remembered, passed on verbally, written, translated, rewritten and translated a bit more over the years… interpreting the bible as a whole is a hell of an undertaking, interpreting that verse in leviticus as junkyard points out seems to be very cut and dried, but as noted, lots of people just ignore it

I’ve quoted those two bits together ’cause I reckon they’re kind of linked – the thing is, yes there are contradictions in there (and if ever there was any debate over whether the bible is the exact word of god or just man’s interpretation, that’d be where I’d start 🙂 ), but the majority of Christians seem to be decent, honest and generous people, living in an entirely commendable way – if that’s an approach to living that they take from the bible, then I’m down with that. If people can read a passage in Leviticus 20:13 and think it means to carry placards at the funerals of soldiers, then I’m not down with that.

I think what I’m trying to say (in a very roundabout, barely coherent kind of way) is that it’s a bit harsh to tag a religion with all the bad things that have been done in it’s name, when that might not necessarily be what said religion actually teaches. I think.

Something either has concrete peer reviewed court admissible evidence to support it, or it doesn’t. In the later case in can safely be dismissed as false.

I have yet to see any concrete, peer-reviewed court-admissable evidence that the resurrection of Lazarus did not happen. I’m playing devil’s advocate, of course, but live by the sword, die by the sword and all that. 🙂

I have yet to see any concrete, peer-reviewed court-admissable evidence that the resurrection of Lazarus did not happen. I’m playing devil’s advocate, of course, but live by the sword, die by the sword and all that.

You are Bertrand Russel and I claim my orbiting teapot.

the majority of Christians people seem to be decent, honest and generous people, living in an entirely commendable way

Fixed that for you.

Correlation/causation, etc.

The priest at the dinner party who said at least one person had is clearly wrong, even within the self-contained logic/reality of the bible and their beliefs.

I think the conversation as reported was along the lines of –
“Is there an afterlife?”
“No-one’s ever come back from the dead to be able to say”
“Someone has”
If there are inconsistencies or inaccuracies with that, I have faith that it’ll be down to me and not what the vicar said. The chances of it happening are pretty slim, I would imagine, but I’d be interested to listen to you and him debate it. 🙂

I have yet to see any concrete, peer-reviewed court-admissable evidence that the resurrection of Lazarus did not happen. I’m playing devil’s advocate, of course, but live by the sword, die by the sword and all that.

The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim that something happened or exists.

Woppit:

This christian god’s creations existed on the planet for approximately 200,000 years living short lives of miserable scratching for existence, dying in pain and agony from diseases they didn’t know how to cure. Also injuries they didn’t know how to fix and from rotten teeth they couldn’t mend.

What did this god thing decide to do to make it better? For 199,980 of those years it sat, arms folded, watching it’s creatures suffer and then decided to help them by becoming human and having itself tortured to death to “absolve” humanity of sins which it hadn’t even committed in the first place. Humans had to wait for another 2,000 years or thereabouts until it had discovered how to adjust all this suffering by inventing medical science.

I agree 100%. I am a devout atheist and love reading these threads but please, if you plagiarise someone else’s words at least acknowledge that when you quote him.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1572150/quotes

Fixed that for you.

Correlation/causation, etc.
Inarguable. 🙂

I think the conversation as reported was along the lines of –
“Is there an afterlife?”
“No-one’s ever come back from the dead to be able to say”
“Someone has”
If there are inconsistencies or inaccuracies with that, I have faith that it’ll be down to me and not what the vicar said. The chances of it happening are pretty slim, I would imagine, but I’d be interested to listen to you and him debate it.

Presumably his “someone has” referred to Jesus. According to the bible, Jesus hasn’t come back from heaven.

(Unless you believe the Australian chap who claims to be the second coming of Christ[/url], and I have yet to see any concrete, peer-reviewed court-admissible evidence that he isn’t.)

Unless the conversation went:

“Is there an afterlife?”
“No-one’s ever come back from the dead to be able to say”
“You’re right”