Hypothesis, Experiment, Theory, Peer Group Review.

What’s any of that got to do with faith?

Plus none of that would help you in FeeFoo’s situation anyway 🙂

What’s any of that got to do with faith?

Nothing. It’s an answer to his question about the veracity of my perception regarding the empty box.

Except it doesn’t really answer it.

My point being that we are trapped by our own subjectivity.
We are essentially incapable of making an objective assessment.

We can state how things appear to us but not how they necessarily are.

(molgrips, just insist you’ve already paid)

This presupposes that your senses and your brain tissue that exists within the universe are giving you accurate information and that you are capable of processing it accurately.
Why would that necessarily be the case?

Quite.

Feefoo makes a good point, but not just in terms of your actual senses. I once watched two scientists argue that the same evidence meant two opposite conclusions…

I once watched two scientists argue that the same evidence meant two opposite conclusions…

they would need to be arguing the data was different and I think we all realise we can see the same things and interpret it differently as this is basically the whole thread. this is not the same as thinking our sense are flawed and we cannot be sure about them.

If the universe is finite, then how can’t there be a god; as the absence of one defies the second law of thermodynamics which we know to be a immutable fact.

Can you explain this I am not sure why you think the second law of thermodynamics proves god in any way shape or form nor am I aware of any paper arguing this nor am i am aware of it being a central tenant of physics.
I am far from an expert in this subject but I dont actually know what your point is here tbh
You are remebering the difference between entropy in a gravitational field and in a non gravitational field
I really dont get what your point is here at all.

A bigger leap of faith for me is the universe is infinite, so something existed before time, space, matter and energy…..
The reality is we dont know what happened before this happened but the claim for god is more than it was the thing that existed before the big bang. We would then ask what existed before god or made god – it answers nothing and simply adds another thing that we have no evidence of as the “answer”.

This presupposes that your senses and your brain tissue that exists within the universe are giving you accurate information and that you are capable of processing it accurately.
Why would that necessarily be the case?

firstly that argument cuts both ways

As i always say to this species argument pick any two objects – one you think is hard and one you think is soft
Its pretty obvious the world behaves in a predictable and reliable way and the info we get is accurate – imagine trying to ride a bike if the balance info was unreliable, the visual information was unreliable and your perception of speed terrain etc was inaccurate – we would crash a lot more than we currently do and have no idea why
its a proper clutching at straws argument

I shall beat you with them repeatedly until such time as you think that you may be perceiving them accurately – I will will go for 100% accuracy across all people as verified by injury.

How do you know you ride bikes? It could all be a false memory implanted by some machine.

🙄
are we 16 year old smoking dope and talking shit now DUDE?

PS The good news is your cars fixed but the bad news is your sense are **** and they still think its broken

Jesus wept

Go on, 11 more posts for 500, woops make that 10 more!

PS The good news is your cars fixed but the bad news is your sense are **** and they still think its broken

applause 😆

are we 16 year old smoking dope and talking shit now DUDE?

Just pointing out how silly it is to go on about evidence and facts, when talking about religion. It’s not part of that domain. At least, not for many people.

Hardly conclusive but wiki reckons

The majority of the three million Nazi Party members continued to pay their church taxes and register as Christians.[5]

but point out hitler was probably atheist but used religion to gain favour, hmm, using religion to influence people, spooky, almost as if it was made for the job.

Also found this scary fella, now if you wanna prove hitler was an atheist fair enough but using the argument “that’s not how I think a Christian should behave so he couldn’t have been one” is a bit lame.

Excellent thread. It’s not that I don’t believe in God I just find the whole concept a little far fetched, certainly the idea that there’s a single consciousness (however all knowing) that dreamt this (the universe that is) all up.

The thing that always amuses me about this kind of debate is the fact that;

a) Regardless of biblical comment it’s fairly well reasoned that there’s no evidence for God. More so God is apparently outside of our ability of comprehension so evidence will never surface.
b) God is an entirely human creation born from eons of superstitious beliefs that have matured over time, the result being the very defendable idea we have today.
c) Religion in it’s purist (original) form is a means of controlling the masses and individuals have leveraged this for both good and evil. At it’s core though it’s a purely human concept and one that groups have moulded to thier own ends.

So, as it’s a purely human concept and one with zero evidence the likely hood that ‘god’ exists is highly unlikely. If anything has taken a had in moulding our universe ‘it’ definitely doesn’t give a toss about our dirty little corner and certainly doesn’t fit any discription or belief structure that exists.

Like most I find extremism in any form indefensible and most religions are very acceptable to me, regardless of the fact I think all their members are a few sandwiches short of a picnic. I recon there must be a religious ‘gene’ that make some more likely to believe, or at the very least feel more comfortable with a belief.

I like proof and there is none so that’s that as far as I’m concerned. If I do find myself a the gates of the ‘Kingdom’ after this life I won’t be completely unprepared but mildly surprised. I’d have to have words…

If all religious knowledge were wiped off the face of the Earth and we had to start again, I think we’d probably construct a new set of stories to try to explain ‘difficult’ issues around creation and death. However, they would bear only passing resemblance to the current stories.

If all scientific knowledge were wiped off the face of the Earth and we had to start again, we’d come up with exactly the same set of explanations, eventually, as we have now.

Mike made this point some hours ago and I was planning to make the same point but I had to go and earn a living for a few hours.
Nobody picked up on it but I think it’s absolutely at the heart of the matter.

just find the whole concept a little far fetched

It’s at times like these that I like to ask myself WWFS (What Would Feynman Say).

He said this:

“It doesn’t seem to me that this fantastically marvelous universe, this tremendous range of time and space and different kinds of animals, and all the different planets, and all these atoms with all their motions, and so on, all this complicated thing can merely be a stage so that God can watch human beings struggle for good and evil — which is the view that religion has. The stage is too big for the drama.”

I think that if there is a God, he’s some kind of scientist who’s fired a couple of particles into his trans-dimenstional accelerator to create the Big Bang and is now watching it with interest from outside. Maybe a raised eyebrow.

I hope you’re right Molgrips.. 😀

edit: pic didn’t work

😆 @yunki

I’m afraid I can’t say whether there is a god or not, whether there is an afterlife or properly assess whether all/any religions are corrupt.

I can say that there on this thread there are huge amounts of disrespect shown to people. From some there seems to be a lack of decency and also a lack of emotional intelligence. I know this is the internet but there does need to be a level of basic civility and regard.

I don’t mind a healthy debate but this is ridiculous. Some times it feels like this place is amazing. Some times it feels like a school playground where some people think it’s all right to grossly deride, insult or bully others maybe attacking people from some imaginary high ground. Funnily enough, it isn’t.

I can say that there on this thread there are huge amounts of disrespect shown to people. From some there seems to be a lack of decency and also a lack of emotional intelligence. I know this is the internet but there does need to be a level of basic civility and regard.

I agree, but then that is generally what happens in this type of discussion. Quite why those of a theistic bent keep insisting on insulting those of us who dare to question such beliefs is beyond me. Surely they should just forgive us?

Quite why those of a theistic bent keep insisting on insulting those of us who dare to question such beliefs is beyond me

Wait.. What? Where did that happen? Looked like mostly atheists dishing it out, I thought.

Hold on back again.. You’re not wrong there Mol, and I try to show respect for others beliefs..
But can I just play Devil’s advocate for a moment..
Imagine it was discovered that Melvyn, the 46 year old welder at work in the same workshop as you believed in Father Christmas.. Would he not get a bit of pisstaking?

I agree, but then that is generally what happens in this type of discussion.

I just don’t get why being respectful of each other seems an impossibility when opinions differ. It’s not hard to respect the personhood of someone else. Should be the default position, no…?

Quite why those of a theistic bent keep insisting on insulting those of us who dare to question such beliefs is beyond me.

Questioning is good in all things. People having different ideas and beliefs is also more healthy for humanity surely?

Surely they should just forgive us?

From his mates, maybe, if he wasn’t upset by it.

But can I just play Devil’s advocate for a moment.. Imagine it was discovered that Melvyn, the 46 year old welder at work in the same workshop as you believed in Father Christmas.. Would he not get a bit of pisstaking?

I would ask different questions as the devils advocate.

Why do we think we can ridicule others for what they believe?

What drives some people to take the piss out of others?

Should the ridiculousness of Melvin’s beliefs be of any importance or concern to anyone else?

Is there need to be more mindful of our own position rather than the position of others?

If you view our universe as a snow globe (one of those shake ’em and watch the snow settle paperweight thingys),
it seems entirely within our grasp to measure and discover all the workings therein.

I’m interested to know what’s outside and whether we’ll ever comprehend that bit.

If it isn’t finite and goes on forever, we’re left with the human questions of why, how and what for.
If it was a chance event that something came from nothing it goes against our causal way of thinking.

Wish I could be around when we crack that one, but fear I’ll go to my grave as bewildered as I am now 😉

molgrips – Member

I think that if there is a God, he’s some kind of scientist who’s fired a couple of particles into his trans-dimenstional accelerator to create the Big Bang and is now watching it with interest from outside. Maybe a raised eyebrow.

A sick experiment. The lab door will be jemmied open by an ethical direct action group to liberate our particles any time now.

Either that or because the universe is so imperfect it could only have been created following instructions from the executive board of the General Universe Company.

Yeah, or maybe we’re a beta version.

molgrips – Member
From his mates, maybe, if he wasn’t upset by it.

cobblers (with all due respect) if he truly believed in something that wasn’t a recognised religion most people would right royally rip the piss and those that didnt would no doubt feel sorry for him and consider him deluded.

cobblers (with all due respect) if he truly believed in something that wasn’t a recognised religion most people would right royally rip the piss

They might well do. SHOULD they though?

I suspect that is where some of us differ. I would not rip the piss out of someone who was being upset by it. Why? What does that achieve?

I think there is an energy that makes us what we are, we get to use it how we want, at some point that energy leaves, what its called and where it goes, who knows.

lazybike – Member

I think there is an energy that makes us what we are, we get to use it how we want, at some point that energy leaves, what its called and where it goes, who knows.

Some times it feels like a school playground where some people think it’s all right to grossly deride, insult or bully others maybe attacking people from some imaginary high ground

Its not the atheists on the imaginery high ground 😉

As for respect it really depends. I imagine no one speaks like this to actual people about religion in the real world. I have friends who are deep of faith and , on balance, I tend to admire the way they try to live their life by a moral code. They tend to be very nice folk however that belief is not real or a good one.

. It’s not hard to respect the personhood of someone else.

Depends what they belief – Hitler – forgive the goodwin – should i respect him by default?
I also think you are confusing our attitude towards their faith and our attitude towards them

you may also want to have a read up on what religion says about non believers or what it has historically done to those who disagree with them and its not exactly nice or tolerant. That argument cuts both ways IMHO

I dont find being told I am a sinner who is going to hell for not following their rules all that nice tbh – would you say it is nice or respectful?

SHOULD they though?

I dont know should ludicrous ideas be left unchallenged ?

Look at David Icke/ alex Jones and conspiracists types/ westbro baptist church – should we respect their beliefs because they are sincere or point out how ludicrous they are and challenge them?

Bloody hell we do it when folk claim 650 b brings the trail alive – now they may actually believe that but it seem ok to take the piss , a little at least, about this

I love those…

Should the ridiculousness of Melvin’s beliefs be of any importance or concern to anyone else?

Yes, I think they should be of concern to others. As an Employee of Melvin, or a co-worker of Melvin, I’d be concerned that I was employing or working with someone who came to fundamentally irrational decisions on the evidence presented to them.
Likewise the likes of Blair declaring that they decide to go into Irag because God told them to is deeply worrying to me.

lazybike – Member
I think there is an energy that makes us what we are, we get to use it how we want, at some point that energy leaves, what its called and where it goes, who knows.

True, it’s called ‘the Force’

Me, I don’t know one way or the other, which must make me an Agnostic, but when in trouble I can’t help myself pray God Help me, sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn’t. I bet everyone here if we were in a plane together and it was about to crash, would join me..

I would meditate to find inner calm so that when i was reincarnated i did not return with fear

or I would try and join the mile high club 😉

I would probably shit my pants and just be sacred as I awaited death but I would not be praying

I wonder how many agnostics invoke the name of god during orgasm…