God and the Afterlife……?

@ rosey – Well I suppose I was thinking about people like my sister. She got married in a church, 2 kids both baptised but she doesn’t go to church regularly and does these things just because it’s what you do. For me if you’re standing there in a church in front of your family at a baptism saying ‘I renounce evil, I turn to christ’ you should wholeheartedly believe what you’re saying, otherwise there’s no point. Those are pretty strong words and doesn’t seem that some people really consider what they are saying, that’s why I get angry at them. People are free to believe what they want, but have some conviction about it

Conversely I do go to Church regularly and haven’t had any of my kids christened (or baptised). I do think that, as with many other religions, the CofE has a lot of culture / history attached and people like doing the cultural thing of having their kids christened.

Only 2 pages to get to genital mutilation this time!!!! Sorry, I must stay away….work to do!!!!

god hates those labia. and foreskins. and pigs. He should stick to adding to the 2 billion or so habitable planets in this galaxy alone. obviously better as a big picture diety.

TuckerUK, I’m interested in why you use the term evil? Those actions are obscene, masochistic, cruel etcetera but if you are an atheist, which I am being presumptuous about, would they also not be human? Evil suggest ungodly or the opposite of god. Is there a difference between good and bad or good and evil?
These are not loaded questions I’m just curious.

I think you can use the term evil without believing in religion as it means immoral basically,
What next i cannot say something is good?

Its a miracle – when i mean wow the statistical odds of that happening make it such an unlikely event i will never likely see another example in my lifetime – its not catchy is it 😉

But actions speak louder than words Jekkyl

At your neice’s/ nephew’s baptism all those people were there together to celebrate the birth of a child, to bring themselves closer together and to declare to one another…. no matter which words were chosen … we’ll look after this child and each other.

No bad thing … wherever it’s done.

And that’s why when the thought closed my mind at my local on Sunday which happened to be a Baptism… how many of these God parents think it’s a load of old rubbish ? I dismissed it … it didn’t matter all those people standing around the font loved that child and each other and that’s it… end of argument… God was present whether they knew it or not.

I’m not religious in the sense that I follow a certain religion. But something somewhere sparked life. There is far more than our brains can ever comprehend.

Ermmmmmm….

Nah.

It doesn’t surprise me at all that the mania displayed by some atheists to convert others to their viewpoint is very similar to that of people proselytising on behalf of a religion.

Each to their own – we don’t all have to share the same beliefs, views or opinions.

But something somewhere sparked life. There is far more than our brains can ever comprehend.

Some brains can comprehend it – lab experiments are already creating basic components of life from scratch, all without the aid of a supreme being.

OP: [genuinely not being rude] I imagine you have not spent much time with, and observing, normal mainstream religious people and then trying to understand the paradigm of faith, in it’s many forms. It’s all to easy to base opinion on caricatures and extremists presented in popular media stories. My suggestion is always to study a topic through first-hand experience with an open mind before asserting it’s validity, or otherwise.

I think you are mistaken is suggesting people who have faith are characterised by being disinterested in the “NOW”. Quite the opposite because the principles of the faith must guide one’s actions in this place, or there is no purpose to it.

It doesn’t surprise me at all that the mania displayed by some atheists to convert others to their viewpoint is very similar to that of people proselytising on behalf of a religion

Slightly more enthusiastic based on this thread.

My own belief is that both the afterlife and god is total bobbins.

That’s your belief and you are quite entitled to hold it, and indeed it may well turn out you are correct. Billions of people hold other views however, although if you read through some of the vitriol seen on here these people are fools, simpletons, bigots, morons and idiots (all terms that have been used on STW in the past to describe people with religious beliefs). I’ve never seen anyone on here who is Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu or whatever use language like that to denigrate atheists in the same manner. All the hatred I see on here seems to come from one side which is something I find quite interesting.

Neither can be measured or quantified using any methods we currently have at our disposal and so cannot physically exist.

Nonsensical remark I’m afraid. Lots of things that could not be measured or quantified by methods available at the time have subsequently been “discovered”.

I get so angry at people who just seem to choose not to think about or address these issues and blindly stumble on.

And equally you dismiss anyone who doesn’t agree with your view as a “fool”. Seems to me that you are the one unwilling to think about these issues, or at the very least consider that there are two sides in every debate.

There is no heaven you fools, make the most of every single second you have of this life you have NOW!

What leads you believe it’s impossible to do both?

Each to their own – we don’t all have to share the same beliefs, views or opinions.

See, the evangelical atheists on here will never allow that. If you don’t follow the herd then you are an idiot. However I can firmly understand why some have an issue with organised religion, let’s face it most don’t exactly help themselves with the things they do in the name of their God.

TuckerUK, I’m interested in why you use the term evil?

Because both the quotes I used contained the word. You didn’t really need that explaining surely?

I love it when the debate gets all intellectual like this 😕

Its a fundamental issue about the meaning of life I dont see anything wrong with being passionate whatever side of the divide you sit on.

I dont really see any attempts to convert either just people saying what they believe or what the evidence says

something somewhere sparked life

Which i assume applied to the deity as well as us. Something came from “nothing” and at least we know we are here

There is far more than our brains can ever comprehend.

even if true , and it may well be, it does not require a deity

Because their thoughts often lead to actions, and homophobia, subjugation of woman, torturing of animals, and child genital mutilation are all evil. And because “tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil” and “all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing”.

There are billions of religious people on this planet, very many of them doing good work for all sorts of charities (as indeed are many athiests).

I’m curious however what percentage of of religious people do you believe are driven by their religion to perform the acts mentioned above? And also, what then motivates the athiests who carry out similar acts?

See, the evangelical atheists on here will never allow that. If you don’t follow the herd then you are an idiot. However I can firmly understand why some have an issue with organised religion, let’s face it most don’t exactly help themselves with the things they do in the name of their God.

Really? I agree that some don’t, but most of the people I know who have a faith (mainly but not exclusively Christian) don’t do any harm in the name of their god. We probably have some unpopular views, but then faith itself is pretty unpopular in the west so that’s hardly a surprise.

See, the evangelical atheists on here will never allow that. If you don’t follow the herd then you are an idiot.

There is no proof of any of the following things;

Little green alien people
Unicorns
Mermaids
The Loch Ness Monster
The Queen being a lizard
Gods

If you adamantly believe in any of those things, and live your life by that belief, aren’t you stupid (having or showing a lack of common sense, comprehension, perception)? If your stupid belief causes suffering to others, shouldn’t we do all we can’t to get it stopped?

from new scientist . . .

.IMAGINE standing outside the universe. Not just outside space, but outside time too. From this spectacular vantage point, you gaze down upon the universe. At one end you see its beginning: the big bang. At the other, you see… whatever it is that happens there. Somewhere in the middle is you, at one end a baby, the other end a corpse. From this impossible perspective, time does not flow, and ther…e is no “now”. Time is static. Immutable. Frozen.

Fantastical as it seems, for most physicists today the universe is just like that. We might think of time flowing from a real past into a not-yet-real future, but our current theories of space and time teach us that past, present and future are all equally real – and fundamentally indistinguishable. Any sense that our “now” is somehow special, or that time flows past it, is an illusion we create in our heads.

Physics, in fact, has killed time as we know it.

……………………..

So do we really need to mourn time’s passing? Einstein, for one, drew solace from the view of the timeless universe he had helped to create, consoling the family of a recently deceased friend: “Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.”

I like the quantum physics view 🙂

I love the idea of an afterlife for the rather selfish reason that I don’t want everything to come to a halt. And I figure I have nothing to lose by believing in it. If there is one then great. If there isn’t then I’ll never know.

One concept that I find fascinating, as well as quite plausible, is that there is an afterlife, but not a God, or at least not God as we generally think of.

What if the afterlife is essentially the sum of all human conscience? That part of the brain continues to exist even after the physical body ceases to function. Deep down we may be subconsciously vaguely aware of this, but the realities of physical existence over-ride everything else. Essentially the theory is that mankind created God and not the other way round.

I do appreciate that thoughts like that could well get me in a lot of bother when I pop my clogs mind you!

I’m curious however what percentage of of religious people do you believe are driven by their religion to perform the acts mentioned above?

Genital mutilation: the vast majority of Jews, the vast majority of Muslims, most Christians in the US and many Christians in Africa.

Homophobia & subjugation of woman: By default, all Jews, Muslims, & Christians.

Torturing of animals (Halal and Kosher meat): By default, all Jews and Muslims.

And also, what then motivates the athiests who carry out similar acts?

No idea.

from new scientist . . .

.IMAGINE standing outside the universe. Not just outside space, but outside time too. From this spectacular vantage point, you gaze down upon the universe. At one end you see its beginning: the big bang. At the other, you see… whatever it is that happens there. Somewhere in the middle is you, at one end a baby, the other end a corpse. From this impossible perspective, time does not flow, and ther…e is no “now”. Time is static. Immutable. Frozen.

Fantastical as it seems, for most physicists today the universe is just like that. We might think of time flowing from a real past into a not-yet-real future, but our current theories of space and time teach us that past, present and future are all equally real – and fundamentally indistinguishable. Any sense that our “now” is somehow special, or that time flows past it, is an illusion we create in our heads.

Physics, in fact, has killed time as we know it.

……………………..

So do we really need to mourn time’s passing? Einstein, for one, drew solace from the view of the timeless universe he had helped to create, consoling the family of a recently deceased friend: “Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.”

I like the quantum physics view

Almost exactly how C.S. Lewis describes God’s view of things. Has science just proved God exists or is C.S. Lewis just an idiot… 😕

It really depends but those who ignore the more “extreme” teachings on homosexuality and contraception can indeed do some good. However the message from the church/religion, of which they belong[ i assume], is not one of tolerance to all- see the exemption to discrimination laws for gay marriage for example we have just for their special beliefs…imagine the reaction if we could openly discriminate against them.
You are right though that its influence and reach is on the decline but it is still enshrined in many areas of law – daily worship in school [ predominanently christian] for example

I like the quantum physics view

Which is very interesting and as yet not fully understood to put it mildly. However if time is not real nor linear then neither is cause and effect [which is the basis of physics] and therefore physics is gibberish. We can therefore ignore it on time!!

Its all very confusing but time has to be real or we dont have cause and effect, you can call this faith if you must.
the quantum world sure is a strange place.

not fully understood to put it mildly.

As opposed to religion. . . .

I’m referring to the religions, or embodiments of, themselves not the individuals.

I’d class myself as broadly Christian but have little love for the established church.

There is no proof of any of the following things;

Little green alien people
Unicorns
Mermaids
The Loch Ness Monster
The Queen being a lizard
Gods

If you adamantly believe in any of those things, and live your life by that belief, aren’t you stupid (having or showing a lack of common sense, comprehension, perception)? If your stupid belief causes suffering to others, shouldn’t we do all we can’t to get it stopped?

I must be a stupid idiot then!….I’ve been called worse.

I accept i dont understand either but one is evidentially based [ if confusing] and capable of investigation and “falsification” and the other has tablets of stone handed down by God that must be true without investigation if you keep the faith

very different IMHO.

Its behind a paywall so I cannot read the article ..perhaps it is just like scientology where you pay for truths 😉

Aren’t there any other superstitions we should be attacking at the same time? Or is it only those with assets and infrastructures?

it just the ones with influence that matter

Do slugs go to heaven?
Of course they do.

They believe they do. Otherwise, what’s the point?

physics likes tries to explain what influences matter . . .

sorry will leave you to it – not religious, and have studied more science than anything else so i am biased 🙂

I could melt my bike down and make a necklace but my bike has still gone

indeed, the filing cabinet has certainly gone.

At the risk of immense ridicule I have to say I tend to go with the after life concept

seems to be a built in human trait otherwise HTF do religions continue? Can’t decide if it’s a nice/benign we’ll all get together afterwards and laugh about this later style thing or just a tool devised to enable/prolong bad stuff happening in real life “don’t worry about how shit your life is, don’t you know? the meek shall inherit the earth”.

Melted cheese

was there ever doubt about how scrummy that is?

HTF do religions continue?

Ignorance. Worldwide religious belief is generally highest where educational standards are lowest. And vice versa.

I think there’s a commonly held belief by many that atheists want to convert (cure?) all religious believers. Now I can’t talk for any other atheists, but I couldn’t give a rats arse what people choose to believe in, it’s merely the impingement on my life and that of others that those beliefs cause that I strongly object to. So, be my guest, believe what you like, but stop mutilating kids genitals, treating women and homosexuals as inferior beings, stop killing animals in barbaric ways, and stop telling me I can’t exercise my right to announce that I think your stupid belief is, well, stupid. In return you are quite welcome to call my adherence to proven facts stupid, I really don’t mind.

@ the ppl slating aggressively arguing athiests…. Say you knew someone who came to you one day very happy because they had won the jamican lottery and that all they needed to get the money was to email their bank account details. If you knew that the jamican lottery was a farce, wouldn’t you tell them that it was load of old rubbish?

I liked Terry prachetts take on heaven where what happens when you die is whatever you believe will happen. I also think that there is a bigger debate that even if heaven doesn’t physcially exist can it exist purely as a belief. I like to think that people do live on after they die, in the thoughts and memories of those that knew them.

I think you can use the term evil without believing in religion as it means immoral basically,
What next i cannot say something is good?

So when Freddy Nietzsche wrote Beyond Good and Evil he was just talking bobbins. Trust him to get a philosophical debate wrong.

trucker, Because both the quotes I used contained the word. You didn’t really need that explaining surely?
Maybe pick better quotes, and you used the word out of quotation.

Homophobia & subjugation of woman: By default, all Jews, Muslims, & Christians.

So billions of people are terrified of gay people and hate women? There’s no point even debating with someone who has such a closed mind. I genuinely feel sorry for you if that is how you view your fellow human beings.

Do they have a special slug god or do they just follow one of the human religions?