God and the Afterlife……?

IanMunro – Member

Likewise the likes of Blair declaring that they decide to go into Irag because God told them to is deeply worrying to me.

I do so hope that’s not true, I hate than man beyond even the loathing I have for Brown, Cameron & Osbourne, where did you read that?
He should be prosecuted for war crimes never mind condemning the odd marine to life imprisonment for some thing he brought about ultimately.

Its not the atheists on the imaginery high ground

There is no high ground – hence why it is imaginary. No high ground for either side.

As for respect it really depends. I imagine no one speaks like this to actual people about religion in the real world.

Why the double standards here then? This is the ‘real world’. The people here are ‘actual’ and just as deserving of consideration.

that belief is not real or a good one.

I suggest that is not for you to judge no matter which side of the debate you are on.

Depends what they belief – Hitler – forgive the goodwin – should i respect him by default?

Ethically,you are on a slippery slope with this attitude. If you can’t see why already (which your statement suggests) then I cannot illuminate you further.

I also think you are confusing our attitude towards their faith and our attitude towards them

Perhaps it is the way people have articulated their points which leads to my perspective.

you may also want to have a read up on what religion says about non believers or what it has historically done to those who disagree with them and its not exactly nice or tolerant. That argument cuts both ways IMHO

Do you honestly think I am ignorant of this…?

I dont find being told I am a sinner who is going to hell for not following their rules all that nice tbh – would you say it is nice ?

. I don’t think they should say that to you either.

SHOULD they though?

No.

I dont know should ludicrous ideas be left unchallenged ?

Challenge is hugely different from ridicule.

Look at David Icke/ alex Jones and conspiracists types/ westbro baptist church – should we respect their beliefs because they are sincere or point out how ludicrous they are and challenge them?

I think challenge is appropriate. I don’t think stopping respecting the humanity of people based on their beliefs is defensible.

Bloody hell we do it when folk claim 650 b brings the trail alive – now they may actually believe that but it seem ok to take the piss , a little at least, about this

Look I am fine with debate on the trifling matter of religion Vs. atheism. Wheel size is life or death – let’s not get into that, it gets too emotive…

Wait.. What? Where did that happen? Looked like mostly atheists dishing it out, I thought.

Well there were a couple of choice phrases such as

Wait.. What? Where did that happen? Looked like mostly atheists dishing it out, I thought.

Which in the context of the post I took to mean an insult to those of us who were questioning the the entire concept of god and an afterlife. The of course there is the perennial “militant atheist” jibe which is always a fun insult to hear. Don’t get me wrong I am by no means saying that there wasn’t plenty of back and forward but it is disingenuous at best to imply that it was all one way traffic and that was the point of my post. I also couldn’t resist the “forgive us” quote Bill Hick really was a genius.

It is also a common trait to try and present the theistic viewpoint as being somehow oppressed and a persecuted and injured minority whose beliefs deserve special treatment when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. Theistic belief is the majority stand point and already occupies a privileged position in UK society and that is one thing that I would like to change (the privilege bit that is). I have no desire whatsoever to “convert” anyone to atheism, or “turn them away from god” but that does not mean that I won’t criticise the teachings of those religions and nor does it mean that I won’t point out the twisted logic that some of those beliefs require.

Have a read of this, puts everything into perspective

Junkyard – lazarus

I would meditate to find inner calm so that when i was reincarnated i did not return with fear

or I would try and join the mile high club

I would probably shit my pants and just be sacred as I awaited death but I would not be praying

Reincarnated? i.e present mind / soul whatever is being transferred to another body in future … hmmm … Which belief are you referring to exactly?

Praying before death? 😆 That’s a bit too late innit if you have not lived an honest life?

cruzcampo – Member

Have a read of this, puts everything into perspective

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Fabric-Cosmos-Texture-Reality/dp/0141011114

Ask the author what is the cause of the cause of the cause of the cause of … big bang. 🙄

Why the double standards here then?

You mean why do I behave differently in different contexts?
I would not say a word about atheism/how daft this all was if I were in a church at a wedding or a funeral – is that equally bad and I should have a rant about them there?

I agree with your broad point the internet is real – it is.

I guess if a religious friend asked me about atheism I would speak as i have here but we rarely discuss it as we know we would debate/disagree/argue so why bother*?
Likewise they dont preach to me or behave as if they are in the mosque

* one did accuse of me indoctrinating my kids in to veganism – i pointed out his kids went to an Islamic school and were learning the Koran off by heart – he accepted the point graciously as we moved on – we both were/are to some degree

I do so hope that’s not true, I hate than man beyond even the loathing I have for Brown, Cameron & Osbourne, where did you read that?

Well publicised at the time. I’m amazed you missed it.

Funny how it’s mandatory for a US president to blather on about his imaginary friend, but if a British PM does it we all think he’s mental.

You mean why do I behave differently in different contexts?
I would not say a word about atheism/how daft this all was if I were in a church at a wedding or a funeral – is that equally bad and I should have a rant about them there?

Behaviours do differ – but should the level of respect that you accord others change…? People are people, respect is respect.

I agree with your broad point the internet is real – it is.
I guess if a religious friend asked me about atheism I would speak as i have here but we rarely discuss it as we know we would debate/disagree/argue so why bother*?

I think the same holds true here. We know the way people behave and what many who contribute think already. There is no useful purpose in discussing when we know that there is no achievable consensus nor much chance of illumination.

Likewise they dont preach to me or behave as if they are in the mosque

.
I like them already.

* one did accuse of me indoctrinating my kids in to veganism – i pointed out his kids went to an Islamic school and were learning the Koran off by heart – he accepted the point graciously as we moved on – we both were/are to some degree

Your children – their children. Do as you both will.

More importantly, matters of life and death now. What wheel size do you prefer? 😉 Don’t answer whatever you do leave this sacred question alone!

We know the way people behave and what many who contribute think already. There is no useful purpose in discussing when we know that there is no achievable consensus nor much chance of illumination.

Somebody says this in every religious thread. Then I point out that the religion threads on here changed my opinion on religion.

Ask the author what is the cause of the cause of the cause of the cause of … big bang.

It could be said cause is a human concept, doe there have to be a cause? 😆

It could be said cause is a human concept

Isn’t everything a human concept…

Somebody says this in every religious thread. Then I point out that the religion threads on here changed my opinion on religion.

Obviously I was wrong then!

J

Its Sunday night, so….

1)Science’s ultimate and obvious purpose is to get us out of our meat bodies, and into something permanent and sustainable
2)As such, science and religion will ultimately converge
3)This will be done by making human consciousness ‘one’ with the ‘universe’
4)We will do this
5)When we get there, we will find that others have already got there, through various means
6)Rinse and repeat

Is sunday big lebowski night in your house DUDE?

Heh heh, JY…

No.

Thread closed. Thread Closed.

we will find that others have already got there, through various means

*waves*

5thElefant – Member

Funny how it’s mandatory for a US president to blather on about his imaginary friend, but if a British PM does it we all think he’s mental.

There’s a line here, though. Acting based on your moral code of which religion is a part- ok. Acting because you believe you are the hammer of God- not so ok.

hammer of God

Even if you come from the land of the ice and snow, From the midnight sun where the hot springs flow ???

Led Zep content

TBH I am a really not comfortable with these tBlair and Bush sitting down to pray together for gods guidance before deciding to invade some foreign lands.

TBH I am a really not comfortable with these tBlair and Bush sitting down to pray together for gods guidance before deciding to invade some foreign lands.

Well you could look at it in another way. If this is how they behave when they think that someone will judge them for their actions; can you imagine how they would behave if they thought that they wouldn’t be held to account by a higher power.

As much as anyone dislikes religion, its very good at making people think about their actions and at least try to justify them; not that it helps massively when people are deluded.

If this is how they behave when they think that someone will judge them for their actions; can you imagine how they would behave if they thought that they wouldn’t be held to account by a higher power.

Well if they didn’t think there was a higher power then they wouldn’t have received any guidance in the first place so perhaps they might have thought a bit more as others would have held them personnally responsible with no “god told me it was okay” type excuse to hide behind. Chances are that they would still have acted in the same way no matter what as they would still be the same people.

Well if they didn’t think there was a higher power then they wouldn’t have received any guidance in the first place so perhaps they might have thought a bit more as others would have held them personnally responsible with no “god told me it was okay” type excuse to hide behind. Chances are that they would still have acted in the same way no matter what as they would still be the same people.

Considering they do truly *believe*, I don’t think your right.

You are seem to think that someone who is a one-in-a-billion, who has achieved pretty much as much power and influence as is possible on this planet; thinks that the opinion of anyone other than their direct peers matters. Not forgetting that 50% of the population has below average intelligence and the other 50% would never be able to agree on anything.

Whereas a *god* if definitely above them on the pecking order, so his opinion and favour is something that’s worth having. If a *god* wasn’t there holding them to account then the only thing holding them back would be their own morals, which without the guidance of religion could be pretty skewed (more-so than they are now!)

One common thing I’ve noted with very vocal Atheists, seems to be a huge disconnection between how much their opinion matters, and how much they think it matters; as they seem to really struggle with how insignificant most of us are, and how if we went away tomorrow not that many people would really care or even notice…… which history tells us isn’t true for former presidents or prime ministers…….

One common thing I’ve noted with very vocal Atheists god botherers, seems to be a huge disconnection between how much their opinion matters, and how much they think it matters

Just saying, lyk… 🙄

Hasn’t every war in history been faught under the pretence of the will of god. Why change now?

Was thinking about putting “very vocal in their opinion” rather than Atheists, but I don’t think its true, as if someone has a strong faith (aka god botherer) then they get the whole, we don’t count for much in the big picture.

You really need to quote until the full stop otherwise you can completely change the context of a statement.

Anyway, I am still interested in seeing how people think around the: no god = infinite universe = something before big bang = something existed outside of time, space, matter and energy which defies all Law’s of Physics. Argument.

Also what’s your thinking on how did multiple cultures with zero contact with each other, without any shared culture or experiences come to the same conclusion about a *god* and leave evidence from ~40,000 years ago illustrating their faith?

I am personally really happy to change my mind, and have done in the past; however I need a bit more than “your stupid if you don’t believe what I believe, argument”

Hasn’t every war in history been faught under the pretence of the will of god. Why change now?

Ummm, I suspect that isn’t true.

Or else the Chinese and Russian communist parties would never have gone to war; and I am assuming you are familiar with minor event called the second world war.

One common thing I’ve noted with very vocal Atheists, seems to be a huge disconnection between how much their opinion matters, and how much they think it matters; as they seem to really struggle with how insignificant most of us are, and how if we went away tomorrow not that many people would really care or even notice

Sorry buy that is garbage. Most atheists know full well just how insignificant we as humans are, it’s those of a more theistic mindset that consider humans to be in any way special.

and I am assuming you are familiar with minor event called the second world war.

Umm you are aware of hitler’s belief in his “devine right”?

if someone has a strong faith (aka god botherer) then they get the whole, we don’t count for much in the big picture.

Surely the religious think the creator of the whole universe cares enough about them as individuals to have a personal relationship with them? Whereas most atheists would agree that we’re a brief assemblage of carbon atoms on an insignificant lump of rock orbiting a pretty mediocre star?

Also what’s your thinking on how did multiple cultures with zero contact with each other, without any shared culture or experiences come to the same conclusion about a *god* and leave evidence from ~40,000 years ago illustrating their faith?

I think it goes something like:

We evolved to survive on the plains of Africa and something which was previously a useful survival trait has warped over time to become the religions we know today.

Religions evolve over time (hence Dawkins coming up with the idea of memes) and so the early ‘beliefs’ of our common ancestors (Sun worship and fertility gods?) have become modern religions.

You can either view the similarities between religions as ‘proof’ they’re all describing the same thing, or as proof that they’re all founded on, and evolved from, the same mistaken belief.

The key thing is, these cultures did have a shared background: it’s not that long ago, in evolutionary terms, that humanity was on the brink of extinction and were only a very small number of individuals in Africa.

Richc – have you not met the atheist Stasi before? 😉

(you missed the bit about having the last word BTW).

Umm you are aware of hitler’s belief in his “devine right”?

“It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us” Churchill.

Was thinking about putting “very vocal in their opinion” rather than Atheists, but I don’t think its true, as if someone has a strong faith (aka god botherer) then they get the whole, we don’t count for much in the big picture.

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

You really need to quote until the full stop otherwise you can completely change the context of a statement.

OK:

One common thing I’ve noted with very vocal Atheists, seems to be a huge disconnection between how much their opinion matters, and how much they think it matters; as they seem to really struggle with how insignificant most of us are, and how if we went away tomorrow not that many people would really care or even notice……

I don’t have that “struggle” myself – I’m no more or less insignificant than anything else in the universe, including the universe itself of which I am a part, and haven’t noticed it in other Atheists. Can you provide an example?

“It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us” Churchill.

if god is for us who can be against us
well….erm them and their god obviously…possibly a slightly different version of our god, dunno gets a bit confusing TBH

One common thing I’ve noted with very vocal Atheists, seems to be a huge disconnection between how much their opinion matters, and how much they think it matters; as they seem to really struggle with how insignificant most of us are

ironing?

We evolved to survive on the plains of Africa and something which was previously a useful survival trait has warped over time to become the religions we know today.

Religions evolve over time (hence Dawkins coming up with the idea of memes) and so the early ‘beliefs’ of our common ancestors (Sun worship and fertility gods?) have become modern religions.

Their is absolutely no evidence of people coming out of Africa with Shaman beliefs, and I’ve never read anything implying this; is this just your opinion or have you read other sources? As I would be interested to read into it.

I seem to remember first documented evidence of humans worshipping a god/gods/spirits is around 40,000 years ago, which is a long time after leaving Africa (circa 200,000 years ago) and I believe there was earlier evidence of humans but none of it appears to contain references to worshipping a *god*. Hence the oddity of multiple cultures all moving towards the same beliefs without influencing each other or evening knowing about other groups ideas. Unless you believe that its a shared belief from a group which was suppressed for 160,000 years before everyone thought that their might be something in that.

Umm you are aware of hitler’s belief in his “devine right”?

Yes I am also aware of his drive to create a German secular state. Hilter was a politician and understood that religion was a route to a lot of votes/support.

So seeing as people are back on the thread, can people comment on this:

Anyway, I am still interested in seeing how people think around the: no god = infinite universe = something before big bang = something existed outside of time, space, matter and energy which defies all Law’s of Physics. Argument.

As I’ve heard a few people argue for and against it, but have never heard anything convincing.

Their is absolutely no evidence of people coming out of Africa with Shaman beliefs

They (presumably) had some beliefs. These have ‘mutated’ over time to lead to reincarnation, transubstantiation, Devagana living in the anus, etc.

It’s slightly harder to pin down than genetic evolution, because there’s cross fertilization between religions and so on, but you could picture them like the tree of life, but with religion. Some religions have more obvious common ancestors than others (like the monotheistic Abrahamic religions) and some memes might die out completely or be deliberately subverted/adapted by fraudsters *cough*Mormonism*cough* revelations from God so there will be dead ends and cross links and so on which don’t happen in genetic evolution.

Thing is we don’t know that, and even if they did all leave Africa with a common belief/idea (which is a massive leap of faith, and is based on zero scientific evidence) don’t you think that after 160,000 years of separate evolution of belief that is highly unlikely their beliefs would be so similar if its all based around handed down verbal history?

If you think about it logically. If this wasn’t about god, and was instead about passing down verbal history would you expect the stories to be remotely similar after 160,000 years, and being told by ~5500 generation? To me, that seems as likely as a bloke sitting on a cloud watching our every move.

NB: The 200,000 years part is taken from a book I read recently about evolution, but no one really knows when it happened, it could have been as recent as 50,000 years and as long ago at 300,000 years. It bandied around 200,000 years, as it seems that as technology moves on we get better at dating “stuff” everything is older than we thought.

So 160,000 years of separation could actually be between 10,000 years and 260,000 years. 100,000 might be a more reasonable number for me to use; so apologies for that……..

“It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us” Churchill.

People spoke about God differently in different times. Back then it was part of general society, so people used God as a rhetorical device as much as anything else.

don’t you think that after 160,000 years of separate evolution of belief that is highly unlikely their beliefs would be so similar if its all based around handed down verbal history?

Are many religions particularly similar? The Abrahamic religions are, but they all originated in the same place 4000 years ago so that’s to be expected.

Perhaps it’s convergent evolution?

The octopus eye and the mammalian eye are very similar, even though their common ancestor didn’t have an eye. Koalas and humans both have fingerprints, but their common ancestors do not. In places without a large mammalian predator, other animals fill that niche.

Perhaps there are certain cultural/belief niches that are filled in a memetically convergent way?

From my very limited understanding, the early cave painting from all around the world make references to shaman worship, and are all very similar, to the point where it make coincidence extremely unlikely; but nothing is impossible. Recent changes, could be to do with our population being so huge and the amount of cross pollination of ideas or it could be something else.

I’ve always though of genetic evolution and social evolution to be very different things, as we are bound by genes which can’t be fundamentally changed, as easily opinions or beliefs.

Unless you feel that *belief* is a genetic trait, which leads into the genetic memory theories……. which is a massive can of worms

Ah, so all the current religions are wrong, but those guys got it right?