Get your dancing on grave boots ready

You make your own luck in life

You may wish to read the parable of the sower mat on that issue – i am not religiou before I get flamed – it is harder to flourish if you land on rocky ground than if you land on fertile land – it is easier to be “lucky” if you are wealthy clearly.
I think Gideoan and dave got a number of opportunities handed to them from birth – Eton for example- that somewhat guaranteed their luck as indeed did those Windsor folk as opposed to poorer people

Matt, I think that because you think that you’ve managed to do alright for yourself from some perceived hardships you think that everyone else is able to. They’re not mate and that’s what is winding everyone up.
There’s having little money while at uni and then there’s not having any means to feed and house your family.

iDave – Member
Can we go back to the Winter of Discontent?
i think we’re about to….

and again…why do we have to because Labour lived in the Credit card mentality of living beyond your means for as long as possible..

On a general note:
Why do people joke about someones ill health? Would you joke about a OAP relative of yours ill health? Yes she made mistakes but if it wasn’t for her we would have appeased alot of people in our weakest hours wouldnt we?

Which is fine if you have equal and fair access to the same educational and health resources as everyone else. trouble is, people in Britain generally don’t enjoy such equality. Not that you’d see that.

Surely we DO all have access to the same educational and health resources? We have free education for all until 16, a national health service, free dental treatment for children and quite widespread access to most social services for no fee or for very little (although that last bit might just feel the effects of today’s cuts).

Not really quite sure what you mean there Fred.

Surf_Matt – read through posts by those that are from the North, contrast their experiences with your own. Your talking about people who’ve known nothing but mining for generations being able to make their own luck in the same way as your privately educated self? You really think things are exactly the same, equal even, for you and them?

We gave up on anything that didn’t fit Thatcher’s economic model

Shipbuilding is another industry that had been in decline for many years before Thatcher. The biggest declines were in the 60s and 70s leading up to nationalisation in 1977 and a concentration on naval ships. If you really want to find an industry where investment was needed but not delivered have a look at IT, which was emerging as an industry in the 70s and 80s, we had world leaders and have now thrown it away. But we’re going a bit OT…

matt……you are nothing like me.
i left school in 1982 to go on a youth op scheme.
in 1984 i was working for a coal merchant, my dad was a miner.
we both lost our income within a week of each other.
i got a job in a engineering firm labouring. £65 a week of which i gave £50 to my mother to feed the four of us still at home.

dont ever think you are like me.

Junkyard – tell Ducan Bannatyne that. Tell countless other successful people who have worked from zero to successful through hard graft and a bit of nouse (sp?!) Tell the guy I wrote a case study for who got paid £7 a month in Africa sewing clothes together and now runs a major Saville Row suit company.

Again, blame others if you can but I still back it up – you make your own luck in life. Or you moan at others that do.

I personally think we should embalm the witch so that people can visit her, slap her in the face, spit on her, dance on her, burn her.

I lived on less than £10 per week for two months at uni

Two months poor at Uni can someone link up Blur common people for Mat please?
As above is everyone [ no sarcasm[ just as talented as you? Could we all be Richard Branson if we just tried harder? Clearly many people fail due to bad luck that is not of their own making
Sorry for your loss re your child.
Hora would you celebrate Hitlers death? Pinochet? Mugabe? it is beacuse she is despised for what she stands for /did

Ton – where did I say we are like each other? We are both males and both live in the UK. We both like MTBing. There the similarities end.

TSY – why does coming from the North make any difference? How did going to a private school for 3 years make any difference? I slacked after that and didn’t get great grades or anything when I took GCSEs/A levels at a Comp. Got no support at Uni. No support ever since. I am failing to find this “privileged” lifestyle I am meant to have had. Apart from my folks being amazing (IMO) and supportive in other ways, they most certainly ain’t rich.

Junkyard – we aren’t in the slightest bit “loaded” – just comfortable. I see mates from London and elsewhere who make me feel like a complete peasant all the time. As for Uni – I received NO support, had a grant, a student loan, had to get a grad loan, came out with debts, had to work every holiday and most weekends to pay to eat and to pay for a very very pokey student scuzz pit. How is that privileged?!

People shouldn’t be bitter with someone in government, not bitter with themselves. After all, we make our road in life. Just accept and be content with how far you’ve gotten.

No one owes you a living.

I grew up in poverty, I don’t hold anything against the woman. Nothing. I hold alot against her Daughter though for her pisspoor tv antics.

I think Surf Mat has it spot on. Too many bitter and twisted losers looking for somebody to blame rather than getting off their asses and working.

Surely we DO all have access to the same educational and health resources? We have free education for all until 16, a national health service, free dental treatment for children and quite widespread access to most social services for no fee or for very little (although that last bit might just feel the effects of today’s cuts).

In principle, yes. In practice ??

Well we wouldn’t have needed this

= http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/news/2010/october/commission-launches-landmark-report-how-fair-is-britain/%5DHow Fair Is Britain?

landmark report released today by the Commission paints a picture of a largely tolerant and open-minded society, in which some equality gaps have closed over the past generation.

But ‘How fair Is Britain?’, the most comprehensive compilation of evidence on discrimination and disadvantage ever compiled in Britain, also shows that other long-standing inequalities remain undiminished; and that new social and economic fault-lines are emerging as Britain becomes older and more ethnically and religiously diverse. The Review also identifies recession, public service reform, management of migration and technological change as major risk factors in progress towards a fairer society.

‘How fair is Britain?’ draws on a range of major datasets and surveys, as well as the Commission’s own research reports, to build a portrait of Britain in 2010. The 700-page report provides the independent evidence and benchmarks for reviewing the state of social justice.

And it identifies five critical ‘gateways to opportunity’ which the Commission says can make the difference between success and failure in life: Health and Well-being: Education and Inclusion; Work and Wealth; Safety and Security; and Autonomy and Voice

Most damningly, in the context of this thread…

in the 21st century we face a fresh challenge – the danger of a society divided by the barriers of inequality and injustice. For some, the gateways to opportunity appear permanently closed, no matter how hard they try; whilst others seems to have been issued with an ‘access all areas’ pass at birth. Recession, demographic change and new technology all threaten to deepen the fault lines between insiders and outsiders.

I understand surf-mat’s constant challenging those that cry “unfair” – but the inequality of opportunity makes that a very caustic bait.

I’ve always worked hard to get where I have got to, often at the expense of quality of life… but it took a lot of trying to get that first “opportunity”, and for many that just doesn’t happen.

pp………..i have worked every day of my life since leaving school
i had to, i could not afford to **** about at uni or collage.

There is a horrid undertone throughout this thread about the British lack of support for people who do well. It manifests itself as a colossal chip on our collective shoulders.

Stop being soo bitter. When I was 16 I left road riding/clubs as I was sick of the middle aged men bitching off and complaining about any and everything.

Yes at somepoint we ALL become victor Mildrew about our life/railing against the injustice to us but please make sure its in your 60/70’s not bloody now.

Save your ire for writing letters of complaints to Points of View, Watchdog, a saucy teen programme, a flash of ankle on Emmerdale etc etc.

Not really quite sure what you mean there Fred.

Ok. Whilst child education is free for all, the difference in standards between areas can be vast. Hence ‘good’ state schools tend to be in more affluent areas. And The standards provided by private education are very often better than that in most state schools. Schools in poorer areas tend to have larger class sizes, which has been proven to be detrimental to educating children effectively.

If you are fortunate enough to have been to a good school, you are then more likely to get into uni. In poorer areas, kids are needed to go out to work as soon as they leave school, to help provide for their families. In some cases, kids have to work, as their parents simply can’t support them through Further and Higher education.

If you are lucky enough to be able to continue in education, then more and more employment opportunities start to become available/possible. How many captains of industry/professionals are there with little or no academic qualifications? How many come from poorer backgrounds?

Education is key to future potential success. Someone like Surf-Mat has had a far better start than his counterpart in an impoverished Northern mining town. That he can’t see this is a sad irony.

Oh and Mat; citing exceptions to the rule doesn’t really prove your point. Very, very few people have the inate ability to succeed regardless. The vast majority have to rely on their circumstances more.

As for health; poorer areas tend to see more health problems, leading to overstretched and less effective health care resources.

So, yes, things may seem ‘equal’ on the surface, but the reality is that such ‘equality’ is little more than a myth.

Shipbuilding is another industry that had been in decline for many years before Thatcher.

Very, very true – and the unions had a lot to answer for.

My point though, is that ship building (as a “top of the head” example) is still a profitable enterprise for our unionised, EU member neighbours.

We (sorry for the collective we – Thatcher) really shouldn’t have gone for the scorched earth / slash and burn approach to British manufacturing industry

There is a horrid undertone throughout this thread about the British lack of support for people who do well.

Where?

In your head, possibly. I can’t see any of what you speak on this thread.

Surf_Matt. Okay it seems your private education may have failed you.
I use the North as a bit of a generalisation as that is where Thatcher’s economic policies had the devastating impact.

Can you really not think yourself into the position of others? Have you never spoken to those who are truly unfortunate…. People who have no real concept of going to University, let alone it being a possibility for them. Kids that have to work as soon as possible in order to contribute to the family coffers?

You see, I have a relatively privileged background, okay my parents might not have been able to send me to private school for a day, let alone 3 years, but I will always be thankful to them for helping me to see the other side, and have compassion for my fellow man.

and again…why do we have to because Labour lived in the Credit card mentality of living beyond your means for as long as possible..

while the Dave and George in opposition were berating them for not spending more….

they’re all ****, none will truly seek the betterment of the citizens they are supposed to serve. it’s all self-serving aggrandisement just with different methodology

surf-matt, did you build your business up or were you ‘privileged’ to be brought into it through family connections? Not a dig, but quite relevant….

TSY – do you think I would have lasted a second working on buidling sites and farms as a labourer if I had no compassion for others “less fortunate?” Except I didn’t feel they were less fortunate because I was in the same boat – skint and needing work.

BTW, my dad left school aged 16 and never received a penny of support from his parents. He’s had ups from hard graft and major downs that to many “weren’t his fault” (e.g late 80s recession) – does he bleat and moan about how unfair things are? No he finds work and he gets paid for it. And always has done.

i-dave – the wife started freelancing, got busy, we decided it was a goer so I left my fairly well paid sales job and went for it. We took a major risk. Family support? None apart from a bit of advice – some good, some cr4p.

people can we have a little perspective. however bad you have got it/had you have not got it as bad as some people in the world. look at the displace peoples of africa asia the carribean!!!. They have no internet to moan about how bad their lifes are. infact I think the child mortality rate in these places is so bad about 50% of all the people born their don’t live long enough to have shit lives. just look at pakistan this year. These people are hounded by their lack of money, government so corrupt that social change is very unlikely to ever happen and to top it off they’re all our slaves. working in conditions that we wouldn’t make our worst enemies work in to stich our cloths and pick our tea. you all need to shut the **** up really. thatcher wasn’t great but she was better than alot of the worlds current leaders.

So, yes, things may seem ‘equal’ on the surface, but the reality is that such ‘equality’ is little more than a myth.

I see what you are saying, but we all have equal access to these services is what I am saying. Of course there are better schools and hospitals, but that cannot be helped surely? Not every school can be the best.

For example, I live in Harrogate ‘oop in t’North’ and there is only one primary school in the entire area (Harrogate and Knaresborough combined has around 15 primary schools I think) that receives top marks from Ofsted. But there is nothing stopping anyone from moving to the area to take advantage of that, whether it be from another part of town or by moving from elsewhere – we all have equal rights and access.

so awesomeness is genetic then mat 😉
Here was me thinking you were just making your own luck 😆

How is that privileged?!

Never said it was but we were all poor whilst at Uni but it was a temporary state of affairs that was going to end. It is not being really poor is it? Living on a council estate where few people work and few people escape etc, no cars , no hoilidays , limited funds to deal with emergencies like say a new carpet that is “proper” poor not temporary poor whilst studying.

we aren’t in the slightest bit “loaded” – just comfortable

You hired a private yacht didn’t you for your latest holiday? Drive a BMW etc I went camping in the UK and I earn above the average wage and am no where near poor. Problem is everyone gets accustomed to their own income and thinks they are not well off – many higher rate tax payers seem to think they are not well off either – your perspective is skewed because you know even richer people than yourself. Compared too most I suspect you are rather well off top 20% top third minimum – Sorry dont answer none of our business really.

I think Surf Mat has it spot on. Too many bitter and twisted losers looking for somebody to blame rather than getting off their asses and working.

Peter; many of the people made unemployed in Thatcher’s reign simply din’t have any jobs to go to. There’ weren’t the jobs there for them. And most lacked the educational standards to be able to go for other jobs. Don’t you think those people would have worked if they had the chance? Rather than suffer the humiliating ignominy of having to become reliant on State benefits?

I don’t think blaming Thatcher is at all inappropriate. Her policies helped create the selfish divided society we live in today. It is actually her fault!

But there is nothing stopping anyone from moving to the area to take advantage of that

Moving house is free?

On Sunday, we went for a spin around Cheshire, from Dunham Massey through the beautiful & incredibly affluent surrounding area.

Sat down later with a meal and watched ‘The Secret Millionaire’, set in the destroyed and ruined wasteland that the once prosperous and thriving North Manchester suburbs have become.
The contrast made me weep with frustration and anger.

When I grew up there as a small child it was wonderful place to live. Industry thrived, providing a living wage for all who wished to work and a sense of community I’ve never found anywhere else.
By the time I left school it was mostly all gone – Mather & Platt, Wormold, Ferranti, Crossley and hundreds of others, all the great manufacturers that provided employment and created wealth were shadows of their former selves and in terminal decline.
Over 400 people from my school year applied for the dozen or so jobs at British Aerospace that summer.
The suburbs immediately north of the city centre went on to become, in social and economic terms, the worst area to live in Northern Europe.

She did that.

She destriyed millions of peoples hopes and future aspirations, whilst peddling the old simplistic lie that hard work on it’s own will set you free.

Her political agenda was to disenfranchise the working class of this country – something she achieved brilliantly by the systematic destruction of communities, the grinding away of hope and the destruction of the unions, the only legitimate means by which the workers could challenge the untrammeled greed and hypocricy of those that owned their places of work.

Let’s not forget the Poll Tax, Section 28, limitation on the right of assembly, the privitisation of essential services, & opposition to human rights legislation. The list of her crimes is endless.

Her poisonous ideology destroyed almost everything that the post WWII generation had fought so hard to achieve – social justice, opportunity for all and a shared determination to create a better country for everyone, not just the wealthy and priviliged few.

I hated her then and I hate her now.

However, as someone who works with those suffering from dementia, I’m in two minds about whether to celebrate her death.
For some, dementia takes everything away, leaving an empty shell.
For others, a glimpse, an essence of the individual remains.
I sincerely hope that in her case the latter is true, or else the bitch will have deprived me of the opportunity to celebrate the death of one the most destructive and evil politicians this country has ever seen.

you all need to shut the **** up really

That’s not very democratic. 🙁

whilst peddling the old simplistic lie that hard work on it’s own will set you free.

But there is nothing stopping anyone from moving to the area to take advantage of that, whether it be from another part of town or by moving from elsewhere – we all have equal rights and access.

Last time i was there Harrogate was on planet earth. Has something changed? is it now in some Utopia where all citizens have ‘equal rights and access’?

With every post Mat sounds more like a working class snob who due to recent succses believes in his own hype. I too am very sorry to hear about the loss of your baby, those must have been dark days and I can’t imagine how hard they were.

you surely don’t actaully believe in democracy?

But there is nothing stopping anyone from moving to the area to take advantage of that, whether it be from another part of town or by moving from elsewhere – we all have equal rights and access

apart from not being able to afford a house in the area/not being able to find a job in the area

its all very well saying stop complaining and go find a job but what if there aren’t any jobs to find? What if your standard of schooling was such that you don’t have the qualifications to get a job?

As ton said earlier many families simply cannot afford to have their children go to university.

We do not all have equal rights and access.

We (sorry for the collective we – Thatcher) really shouldn’t have gone for the scorched earth / slash and burn approach to British manufacturing industry

This is not a defence of the policies of the Thatcher government, more of a myth-busting exercise; manufacturing output increased under Thatcher after a significant decline during the 70s. It flatlined during the last government (declined in real terms), probably because of the emphasis on financial services and public sector employment (and the increased use of borrowed money).

do you think I would have lasted a second working on buidling sites and farms

Surf_mat – I can only go by the way you conduct yourself on here. You’ve surprised me today, and I would be honestly surprised if your colleagues weren’t giving you certain hand gestures behind your back.

Moving house is free?

**** all work in Huddersfield when I was growing up. I ended up in London.

Thats all off my own back as I blamed my Father for my lot upto that point, not a politician.

Its the ‘village’ mentality. By eck, dont go out of the village, its scary out there and we dont like those blacks and chinese moving in here either’.
(but please provide us with jobs even though we are in the middle of nowhere and have **** all chance of contributing to the countries economy).

(cough Wales cough)

Surf_mat – I can only go by the way you conduct yourself on here. You’ve surprised me today, and I would be honestly surprised if your colleagues weren’t giving you certain hand gestures behind your back.

At both labouring jobs, I was offered a permanent position. Why? Because I worked hard and TBH, I quite enjoyed proper physical graft and a laugh with some sound blokes. Also worked with a few slackers who didn’t last long.

Have you ever failed your awesomeness ?

Do you not get it? I am not talking about money or ability to find work or anything – I am trying to make the point we all have equal rights which we all have. Yes?

Please someone explain to me why any one person in the UK has less rights to move somewhere, send their children to a particular school or have treatment in a hospital.

Perhaps it is harder for some to get access to it, but we all have the same RIGHT to it, no-one is stopping anyone.