“Who got us involved in Northern Ireland?”

Oliver Cromwell actually.

matt…my hatred is pure for her mate.
i despise the woman and everything she did and stands for.

The coal industry was viable

Not in the form it was in the 1980s, and had been in decline for a long time before that –

I’m not defending how it was done, but something needed to be done. Ideally there would have been a managed decline of an industry that kills workers and is an environmental disaster; it’s unfortunate that you got people like Thatcher and Scargill at the same time – it was always going to be the workers that suffered when you had 2 sides that wouldn’t back down.

Can we go back to the Winter of Discontent?

i think we’re about to….

very old woman in nearly dead shocker. must be a slow day in the world of news. I do love how some people believe that they could have done a better job. oh and if you don’t know she wasn’t exactly your typical tory gentry. yeah she f$%ked up but show me a world leader/politician who hasn’t lived up to their own hype. she did a better job then labour. fact.

Zulu-Eleven – Member
Who got us involved in Northern Ireland?

A Labour Prime Minister!

a nice little fact you choose to overlook when making accusations TJ!

Please try and think about what you’re saying here: ‘we’ were involved in Northern Ireland right from the moment of its creation under the Government of Ireland Act in 1922 because ‘it’ is part of the United Kingdom. Unless you’re fingering Lloyd George it’s pretty difficult to blame anyone for getting ‘us involved.’

@ Surf-Mat

Are you incapable of having your own opinions then? In the happily ‘revolutionised’ world of Higher Education we call that plagiarism…

Zulu-Eleven – Member

Who got us involved in Northern Ireland?

A Labour Prime Minister!

a nice little fact you choose to overlook when making accusations TJ!

Eh? to what are you refering? the division of ireland in 1920? Liberal leader IIRC.

Rio – coal needed to be reformed but there were many factors not taken into consideration. Firstly that the cost of benefits needed to be added to the cost of the imported coal to give and actual cost to the country of closing pits. Also that the polish coal imported was of poorer quality and also of the strategic value of having and indigenous energy supply.

who got us involved in iraq and afghanistan?

Mattie – well if it helps, I do agree with most of the opinions and wanted to add some balance to the thread. I didn’t really have time to construct my own list so “borrowed” one.

It’s had the desired effect so I’m happy at least.

Oh yes – I also think we are in for a “Winter of Discontent” x 100 in the next few years. We are so utterly and totally in the sh1t that I would be surprised if we get back to nutty 2007 “wealth” in anything less than 15 years.

TJ you really are a cock.

Can’t argue with fact, so resort to insults. That’s mature and clever, isn’t it? 🙄

Wow I always thought Surf-Mat was a bit of a tool but really…..

I just don’t think he ever experienced the negative effects of Thatcherism. And tbh, I doubt many of those supporting Her Maggiesty did either.

Sadly, this thread just serves to illustrate just how divided this nation has become, socially, culturally and economically. The ‘Chav Underclass’, an entire generation reliant on Benefits, has emerged as a result of Thatcherism. Indeed, just a brief read of this forum reveals the insular, narrow-minded and selfish attitudes which have come to prevail in Britain today. I think that’s sad. Some folk on here bang on about how great Thatcher was, clearly oblivious to the real damage that evil woman did to this country, OUR **** country.

Instead, here we sit, bickering over who’s right and wrong, calling each other rude names, trying to score points.

Do any of you seriously think that woman gives a shit about any of the people in this country? Really? Does she bollox. Her sole interest is in lining her own and her cronies’ pockets. I’m sat right this moment, looking at the monument to her treachery:

Thatcher ordered the senseless slaughter of over 600 men on the General Belgrano. Did she shed a tear for them?

(Limbers up. Practices new moves in front of mirror…)

Please try and think about what you’re saying here: ‘we’ were involved in Northern Ireland right from the moment of its creation under the Government of Ireland Act in 1922 because ‘it’ is part of the United Kingdom. Unless you’re fingering Lloyd George it’s pretty difficult to blame anyone for getting ‘us involved.’

OK, lets be specific, who put troops on the streets of Northern Ireland – up to that point it was entirely an issue for the government and civil authorities of Northern Ireland.

TJ – like I said, I’m not defending how it was done. Personally I consider sending people down pits to dig coal as very similar to sending children down chimneys to clean them – in this day and age we should treat people better. Unfortunately a whole mythology has been created about the noble miners which tends to prevent people from looking at the issue objectively.

I used to live just to the left of that tower, by the Thames in a nice tribute to Thatcherism called Anchorage Point… 😉

The Government of Northern Ireland requested that the UK Government deploy the British Army in Northern Ireland to restore order and to prevent sectarian attacks on Catholics. Nationalists initially welcomed the Army, often giving the soldiers tea and sandwiches, as they did not trust the police to act in an unbiased manner. Relations soured due to heavy-handedness by the Army.

as very similar to sending children down chimneys to clean them

You don’t send children down chimneys, you send them up – it’s less labour intensive that way therefore leaving you stronger to deliver them a beating afterwards 😉

Thatcher ordered the senseless slaughter of over 600 men on the General Belgrano. Did she shed a tear for them?

Nope. And neither did I. It was as legitmate a target as the coventry etc.

(Limbers up. Practices new moves in front of mirror…)

Don’t bother, it won’t be enough. 😀

Zulu – so for you the northern irish troubles started because there were troops sent there to try to keep the peace? We had no involvemnet before that?

matt……….how do you think you would cope in a nice terrace house in a nice pit village.
with you views on thatcher???

She shut down whole industries without a thought as to what might happen to the employees when towns and districts lost their major employers. She divided the country and sold off the family silver, as Macmillan said. In the early eighties businesses went under as a consequence of her financial policies. She had some dodgy friends, one was Hammer of OXY (Piper Alpha, remember?).

I’ll open a bottle I’ve been saving.

I’m not defending how it was done, but something needed to be done.

It did, but not at the expense of working communities that had given nothing but full hearted support to Britain throughout the decades. To make them pay as hard as they did and as long as they did, to put an entire generation of some communities into poverty on the basis of political dogma is shameful.

Ideally there would have been a managed decline of an industry that kills workers and is an environmental disaster

oh please, the oil and construction industries haven’t been wound up because of their safety or environmental records

it’s unfortunate that you got people like Thatcher and Scargill at the same time – it was always going to be the workers that suffered when you had 2 sides that wouldn’t back down.

she had the power to do things differently. she knew full well the impact her policies would have on the miners and their families. She considered their suffering to be less important than showing all unions what would happen if they opposed her. In doing so she created a new ethos in our country that divided our nation, stunted a generation and still creates enormous anger and resentment to this day.

working communities that had given nothing but full hearted support to Britain throughout the decades

The few people I knew who worked in mining generally hated it and only did it for the money. But hey, why not perpetuate the myth. 🙄

Nope. And neither did I. It was as legitmate a target as the coventry etc.

Ok. In the same way that British soldiers are to the Taleban then?

‘Legitimate target’? FFS… 🙄

matt……….how do you think you would cope in a nice terrace house in a nice pit village.
with you views on thatcher???

Why would I move to such a place?

You make your own luck in life – moaning at others and venting rage because it’s “someone else’s fault” gets you nowhere.

Every government dishes us out sh1t on it’s own way – be it obviously (like Thatcher) or in a more sly way like Labour did. You just have to roll with their “punches” and make your own way.

We live in a free country with free enterprise – we aren’t oppressed, we don’t get imprisoned or shot for no reason (usually). We have a pretty good NHS and a fairly good infrastructure for business and to support our massive population.

I’ve done many jobs since leaving Uni from struggling to find anything for months and doing £5.50 per hour demolition labouring then farm labouring to co-running a fairly successful little company – what have I learnt? You make your own luck and you don’t blame anyone else when/if it all goes to sh1t – which it has done plenty of times for me and my family.

And for the miners? A terrible time for them all but things change and jobs get lost – think Industrial Revolution, think IT boom, think many other major shifts in our economic make-up.

Zulu – so for you the northern irish troubles started because there were troops sent there to try to keep the peace? We had no involvemnet before that?

TJ – your specific accusation is that Thatcher “perpetuated a civil war that could only be ended by negotiations”

The key single act that perpetuated and fuelled the troubles in the latter half of the 20th century was the introduction of the British Army in a quasi-policing role, this was done under the authority of a Labour Prime minister and home secretary.

what have I learnt?

That you’re awesome?

Ok. In the same way that British soldiers are to the Taleban then?

Um yes. That’s how it works. 🙄

Rio, your right – mining is a dirty, unglamorous, dangerous job.

However, it has always paid better than working in a factory or on the checkouts. That’s why blokes in Chile continued to go down the San Jose mine despite being fully aware of the poor condition of the mine.

…and in communities where there aren’t a whole deal of shiny money choices, the dirty money looks pretty good.

Debating Thatcher’s legacy will always be clouded and polarised by the Miner’s Strike – which is both understandable and unfortunate. She did plenty of harm (almost) everywhere else, but that tends to be forgotten compared to the magnitude of what happened to pit villages.

Coal, steel, shipbuilding, manufaturing, rail – all these things and more needed reformation, and to do that required unions to be engaged or disempowered.

Unfortunately making it a unions / workers / management / Government issue obscures the facts that investment for a new generation of commerce (not just banking) was desperately needed, but was not delivered.

Good example in the news recently – Cunard’s new QE. Not built on Clydeside or Belfast.

Surprisingly, not built in Korea, China or Poland for cheap delivery either…

No, built in Italy.
WTF Don’t get me wrong, the Italians are fantastic designers and engineers and have a long tradition of shipbuilding – but they are still ship building… We gave up on anything that didn’t fit Thatcher’s economic model.

Ships are still needed, can still be built profitably in Germany, France and Italy – all countries tied by the same EU “red tape” that we moan about, all countries with a unionised workforce, but countries that have retained, encourgaed and invested in their manufacturing base – AND CONTINUE TO PROFIT FROM IT.

I’m dusting the Raleigh Burner off to wheelie and skid on her grave, 80’s style.

You make your own luck in life – moaning at others and venting rage because it’s “someone else’s fault” gets you nowhere.

The blood runs blue….

Thatcher’s blood may indeed be blue, she aint no human.

matt………..i did prior to this debate think you were a ok guy.
i do now think you are a cock.
i just hope that you and your rosy little world never fall on unfortunate times.

Mat your a product of everything I hate about thatchers legacy.

+1

You make your own luck in life

Which is fine if you have equal and fair access to the same educational and health resources as everyone else. trouble is, people in Britain generally don’t enjoy such equality. Not that you’d see that.

Mat; by your own admission, you’re from a reasonably affluent background, went to public school/university, have been fortunate enough to secure a decent income from your career. So, did you make your own luck, or was it your parents?

Do you ever stop to imagine what life might have been like, had you not enjoyed such advantages early on? Because your posts on here seem to suggest you have very little understanding of what life is like for millions of people in Britain. Or for those affected by the closure of the only source of work and income available to them in their local area. People who had no options to ‘make their own luck’, because they din’t have the economic ability to move elsewhere to get work, or afford education which might have trained them to do other jobs. Indeed, no such training or educational opportunities were made to the vast majority of people made unemployed as a result of Thatcherite policies.

Do you dress up at weekends, and call yourself Marie?

OK, lets be specific, who put troops on the streets of Northern Ireland – up to that point it was entirely an issue for the government and civil authorities of Northern Ireland

Think we used the bLack and tans to actually create the partition artificially

The key single act that perpetuated and fuelled the troubles in the latter half of the 20th century was the introduction of the British Army in a quasi-policing role, this was done under the authority of a Labour Prime minister and home secretary.

Yes before that everything was going rather well wasn’t it – they sent them in just to stir things up a bit iirc 🙄
Stop digging and accept it was a silly thing to say – yes labour put the troops there but to suggest this alone perpetuated and fuelled the trouble is innaccurate in the extreme – presumably peace would have broken out if this had not happened then?

Infact is mat just trying to wind people up?

Surf_Matt… that taxi I ordered for you is still waiting!

Surf-Mat is really Gareth Cheeseman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEv3q-ViieQ

ton – thanks for that. However you are backing up the “it’s not fair” attitude. Maybe it’s because Ive seen both sides of life – from horribly (and I mean horribly) skint to fairly comfortably off and back down again. Both sides of the coin so a balanced view of it all.

Schooling – yes it was private until 14 then comp as dad lost all his money due to two plcs going bust in the late 80s recession oweing him a lot. So from 14 to now, I have received NO support from my parents.

I lived on less than £10 per week for two months at uni – my folks had no money to support me. I scrabbled around for ages for a “proper” job and did some pretty nasty temp jobs for over a year. Oh and we lost a baby at 37 weeks in 2007 – you may have conveniently forgotten that? If that’s “a rosy little world” then you really are talking complete sh1t.