Flooding

As an aside, a friend of mine is a firefighter in Cumbria, and has asked me to check he’s not going crazy. Although they don’t ask for publicity, he’s wondering why there are lots of photos and comments in the media about what the Police and Army are doing to help, but nothing of the fire crews.

its something thats been doing the rounds for a while now, the way the bbc appear to be purposely omitting the word ‘firefighters’ from the coverage. in cumbria there were plenty of ‘boat crews’ and ‘rescue teams’ helping out, not firefighters. just as last year when we brought central london to a standstill marching against the government, fighting for our pensions, there wasnt a mention of it on the news. nobody knew. if it had been the EDL or the like, id guess there would have been enough coverage.
cynical? moi?

Really? That’s his concern that they’re not getting coverage?

thats not how i read it.

Took about 5 seconds to find a photo on Google:

You need to practise your Google fu;

2012

isn’t proving much either way.

Really? That’s his concern that they’re not getting coverage?

Ah, come on Drac, fairs fair. Maybe it’s different up your neck of the woods, but ambo peeps ALWAYS used to moan that it was always ‘the fire service that rescued and gave first aid to the patient’ who was subsequently magically just ‘taken to hospital for treatment’ with ne’er mention of any prehospital care or who by. Our Trust is better at blowing its own trumpet these days, (sometimes too good!) but lack of coverage compared to other agencies involved was always noticed by those involved. Fairs fair; the public would expect to be told just who is fishing people out of the floods, and if Trumpton aren’t being recognised for the excellent, filthy, hard, and long work they are doing, I think I’d feel a bit miffed too.

Yeah I get that bit but we can’t expect coverage when dealing with 1500 calls a day the press would need to run a supplement to cover the work. But I wouldn’t whine and never have after an incident that we hadn’t had coverage.

But I wouldn’t whine and never have after an incident that we hadn’t had coverage.

No, me neither. I’m largely motivated by a) getting paid and b) a job well done, but different folk are motivated by different stuff. I’ve seen staff absolutely furious that the incredibly hard work that they’ve put in themselves on a job has been eclipsed by, say, the attendance of a fire crew or air ambulance who didn’t actually do anything at the job but got all the press attention. And I can kind of see why. Fairs (very rarely) fair, after all.

1500

Pah, I see you and raise you 3100 😉

And here’s me thinking a job well done is reward in itself.

I can’t believe that more than a handful of firefighters are the slightest bit bothered by what is, or isn’t being said about them at the moment.

Maybe I’ve just got use to it.

Not bad.

I’d hope not Scotroutes.

Anyway back to the topic. I hope the forecast for Wednesday is wrong.

They’ll have shed loads of insurance work for their second jobs anyway.

As for Wednesday, yeah, too right. Be wrong weatherman.

And here’s me thinking a job well done is reward in itself.

tis 100% true.

I can’t believe that more than a handful of firefighters are the slightest bit bothered by what is, or isn’t being said about them at the moment.

not bothered in the slightest, its more a cynical observation of the way the government want to portray us, as we’re still officially in dispute.

surely you get that? its not a wish for coverage or recognition at all, just a dislike of the government really and the way they do business. im sure we’re not alone in that.

I gave up on what the public think about us many years ago. They really don’t care until such time as they need us, then they forget about us as quick.

I used to take pride in telling people what I do, now I tell people I am a local gov employee. 4yrs and counting til I get my gold plated pension and finally bring this country to its knees.

4yrs and counting til I get my gold plated pension and finally bring this country to its knees

I’m glad for you. Mine will be gone by June as will have any hope of retiring before an age twenty years less than yours will be when you collect.

When do good you come out good though.

You need to practise your Google fu;

Saw it was old shortly after posting, but there were so many photos of firefighters I couldn’t be bothered to change it. They are also in today’s selection of photos about the flooding in the Telegraph, there was a picture of one on the front of the BBC news site, I’ve even seen them on the Spanish news…

That said, it is true that they seen to be generally referred to as “emergency services”, although given the amount of waste around you’d be hard pushed to start a fire right now, which could be the reason.

emergency services”, although given the amount of waste around you’d be hard pushed to start a fire right now, which could be the reason.

I reckon that the simple, non conspiracy theory reason for this is simply that a lot of other organisations are involved these days; the meeja probably have a bit of a hard time/can’t be arsed to identify which organisation provided which dry suited crappie waist deep in water. They all look fairly similar, in similar kit.

After the Pitt review all of the responding authorities were forced to respond in a more integrated manner. In combination with this are directly employed private organisations delivering the same services. It can be impossible to tell who is who at any given moment.

Have fire services been given statutory responsibility for inland water rescue yet? Or indeed the funding required for equipment and training to perform that task? Or are they still buying boats and drysuitz out of other parts of FRS budget and rescuing people from floods on an ad hoc basis with some brigades not equipped for water rescue?

Bridge at Elland is a no go now.

still idiots bleating that dredging doesn’t work!

Oh the irony

The informed opinion (rather than angry people) seems to be that dredging increases river capacity a bit, in the short term, but nowhere near enough to handle freak rainfall like this.

So basically it won’t work, and money is better spent elsewhere.

LOLZ at dredging idea.

If you think dredging would have helped in this case you clearly have never been to Calderdale and don’t know much about how much water has actually been in the catchments during these floods events.

Example.

This is the Calder and Hebble navigation canal at Elland on a normal day as seen from Elland bridge.

And this is it this week – river so overwhelmed with so much water it filled the canal – and this isn’t even at its highest. It also wasn’t a static pool – this was fast flowing water.

Video here:
https://twitter.com/yorkshireguy/status/680739898823962624

In mytholmroyd the flood water was 3 METRES above normal levels and at that same depth accross the whole flooded area. So maybe you say “build a 3m high wall” – which would be completely daft anyway – not even that would work as that 3m depth was spread so wide the defences would need to be tens of metres tall to contain it.

” drains have to be kept clear.mthis much is just common sense; if you take a pint mug, fill the bottom third with sand, then try to pour a pint into it, you really shouldn’t act all surprised when your shoes get wet, but that does seem to have been the way the EA has behaved for the last twenty years, and there are still idiots bleating that dredging doesn’t work!”

FACEPALM.

But it wasn’t a pint that fell from the sky, it was several gallons into one pint. Scooping a bit of cack from the bottom of the channel would have made no difference whatsoever.

This has been up the road from me.
big copter

the dredging thing is a classic way of avoiding talking about the real causes and problems.

Dredging is appropriate in some locations more so than others. It is just one of a number of tools. Won’t help much when you get shed loads of rain over and over again. The biggest issue is the EA senior management culture coupled with the fact it’s largely government funded. the only thing they manage worse is water resources.

when i was a kid at school, we where taught about FLOOD PLAINS large areas of land left fallow to soak up flood water, but for some reason these areas of land are now being built on, increasing the risk of flooding as the water has to find somwewhere else to go , theres also the problem with run off from the buildings roofs, look art the roof size of your average out of town shed/store, a huge volume of water collected from 30 plus feet up and fed directly into 100 year plus sewers, then into rivers.

and what with the atmosphere getting warmer and holding more moisture so there’s more water available to fall as rain and everything as the water cycle runs faster in an enhanced greenhouse world…

Uncomfortable truth is that some places will flood, occasionally.

We’ve been fooled by the Canute delusion into thinking that defences can prevent that – they can’t, they can reduce how often it happens, however there will always be freak events that show us who is in charge

Of course, the idea of houses in risk zones being designed with flood resistance, and not building on flood plains, is far too much like commo. Sense – I’m reminded about that woman who was on telly a couple of years back complaining her expensive hardwood kitchen floor had been ruined, just after being repaired from the previous flood…

I don’t see why we can’t build on flood plains, the problem is the traditional style house that we demand. With a little thought anything is possible.

Of course, a more sensible solution would be to redevelop existing buildings.

Its not just flood plains being built on, apparently the land (6500 hectares) above hebden bridge has been drained for grouse moors, helping to cause the flooding whilst reading government subsidies for the landowner

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/29/deluge-farmers-flood-grouse-moor-drain-land

appears the main bridge in Tadcaster has now patially collapsed

the Canute delusion

The reverse is true, Canute tried to stop the tide to demonstrate that he couldn’t actually do that to the early church and thus demonstrating the supreme power of God

The delusion is due to Norman PR post conquest

The wind is picking up in s-w scotland at the moment and with the forecast for 100mm of rain i imagine they’ll be a fair amount of trees blown over throughout scotland and cumbria as their root systems will be waterlogged and unable to hold fast in the ground – I was out in my local woods earlier where i have built trails over the past 20+ years and the entire forest floor was moving around when the gusts were particularly strong.

It seems to me that this is now what our winters are going to be like. Wet westerly after wet westerly. What’s needed is a restructuring on such a huge scale that it is likely to be beyond the grasp of our short-termist culture, political and civil…

Tadcaster bridges – does anyone know if the old railway viaduct is intact? My cycle commute (York to Castleford) normally goes across that bridge that just fell down. Not the biggest problem, minuscule compared to other people’s, but if anyone has any information it would be appreciated.

y cycle commute (York to Castleford) normally goes across that bridge that just fell down

So much work still to be done in Hebden. Spent the day taking apart a shop – floor, walls, floor supports – everything. Pretty sobering. But I did get to hit a lot of things with a sledgehammer…which was nice.

Main street looks like it’s in one piece if you ignore the empty shops. But then you go on the back streets…things are really not good. EPA are reminding people that it’s all contaminated, it’s not nice, not even close to it.

IMGP0900 by Greg.May[/url], on Flickr

I went riding in the South Lakes today, worst I’ve ever seen it. Bridges in pieces, massive craters ripped out of the roads, gravel over everything, debris 4+ metres above the waterline around all the lakes, fields still under water. I’ve seen plenty of flooding and meltwater up there over the years but this was on another level altogether and that was a week after the last major rainfall there. God knows what will hit it tonight with the next storm. 🙁

I like that Tadcaster bridge although given the number of floods that have hit it in the last 10 years I’m not surprised it’s given up the unequal struggle.

Those will be our electricity cables then, bongohoohaa.

And kimbers, no – I just said I never ride park on the S&S thread, I don’t want to have to repeat myself – or have to try a jump, I’d only hurt myself

Of course the next problem in Tadcaster will be that bits of collapsed bridge will be blocking the water flow if the next flood comes soon.

big_n_daft – Member
So you don’t see the loss of large swathes of deep peat moorland as an effective sponge as a top 100 contributer? Or do they parachute in the 150 t cranes that they use to build and maintain the turbines on to floating cushions?

The construction of the access roads and the culverting they need cause an accelerated loss of peat and create new watercourses . Not to mention the damage to water quality for water companies and private supplies as the peat no longer acts as the buffer during rainfall events

Actually they do use floating cushions
Floating Roads[/url]

I have used floating roads on a few windfarms. A geogrid membrane is placed straight onto peat with a layer of stone. Sometimes another layer of geogrid and more stone. The vegetation is not broken and retains its structure. Because the roads sits on top of peat no culverts or ditches are required.

Turbines are often micro-sited to areas where peat layer is thinner. Peat is an earthworks contractors worst nightmare and all attempts are taken where possible to leave it undisturbed.

Even where peat is excavated, it is nearly always placed adjacent to the road or turbine base or hardstand where it came from. I have never worked on a wind farm where any peat has been removed from the site.

Opencast coal extraction has a far bigger effect on water levels and potential flooding. I know great swathes of East Lothian and the East coast mainline that are kept dry by borehole pumps following coal extraction.

I think the argument to prevent wind farm construction on a generalisation that they may cause flooding is a weak one. Looking at the bigger picture they will do more good than harm to the environment. I bet new retail developments, housing, loss of parkland, monob-locking gardens, agriculture, use of cars and poor town planning massively outdo any adverse flooding effects from windfarms. Flood event, better blame Tesco.

“wondering why there are lots of photos and comments in the media about what the Police and Army are doing to help, but nothing of the fire crews.”

Reasons for keeping good publicity [and minimising public sympathy] about the fire service out of the news:

“South and West Yorkshire Fire Services have cut about £20m from their combined budgets since 2011.”

“Fire services in South and West Yorkshire could be merged in a bid to save money.[b]make even more financial cuts[/b]“

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34812427

The government are proposing merging ALL fire services with the police to try to justify even more budgetary cuts

“Theresa May risks “turning the clock back 140 years” with discredited plans for police and crime commissioners (PCCs) to take over fire authorities…“

“these proposals threaten to damage the well-earned trust of the public in firefighters, hamper innovation and will lead to the fragmentation of emergency services delivery across the UK“

Any centre or right wing news delivery will have made sure public sympathy for the dedication and bravery of the fire service is kept to the absolute minimum.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/dec/19/fire-brigades-union-voices-anger-at-plans-to-hand-oversight-to-pccs