Flooding

For those that don’t live locally the flooding up here is not like flooding on the Somerset levels or other fliod plains. The rivers around here are not silty meandering things but rocky bottomed and often walled up, in Rawtenstall the Irwell is usual 15ft below it’s side, on Saturday it was within a foot or so of the top.

The flooding occurs as the water rushes through, people on the side of hills get flooded as water rushes in the backdoor and out the front. The flood defences are designed to sliw the flow, Tod park can be deliberately flooded, Stacksteads has a huge holding tank etc. My neighbour who used to live in Tod said the flooding wasn’t as bad there as previously althoigh still bad. There rains were pretty bad, I’ve never known Padiham flood or Whalley.

Don’t know what the answer is but I can’t see what can be done for places like Hebden where many buildings are at the same level as the canal and river.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-weather-cause-flooding-government-7078739
Interesting article, wonder what the collective make of this?

Should someone set up a thread identifying businesses in the areas affected that could be supported through online means (once they are operational again) ?

He has a valid point

You also to add in windfarms on the high moors where the access infrastructure causes massive loss in peat and the purpose made drainage accelerates the transit of water off the moors

Flood plains flood, man made interventions reduce the incidence but anyone looking at the geography must realise that the landscape was formed with massive inundations periodically

Interesting article, wonder what the collective make of this?

It’s a shockingly poorly written article. Dredging is a lot more complex than they seem to think. And harking back to what people used to do is absurd given that most of our problems now are caused by what people did a hundred-odd years ago.

There was a big debate about dredging last time this happened iirc.

Canal at Tod is one of the big problems at the moment:

When more rain arrives – that is going straight into the Calder through those allotments on the RHS.

You also to add in windfarms on the high moors where the access infrastructure causes massive loss in peat and the purpose made drainage accelerates the transit of water off the moors

If windfarms came in the top 100 contributors to flooding I would be suprisedamazed. (Unless you are Trump in which case I claim my 5 tacky golden tanning salon tokens).

Whoa.
Not managed to get out yet – take it all the canalside housing further up toward Tod and down toward Hebden has gone?

You can’t really blame the Tories. Yet.

It’s a combination of things:

Climate change – predications suggest that stormy weather is becoming more and mor common. We don’t get drizzle any more, just vast quantities of water all in a short space of time. Too fast for thr drains to deal with

Idiotic planning permission – building on flood plans is dumb. The developers build a big drain to get the water off their development. Which means the next place downstream has even more water to deal with. There must be a reason for this – it can’t just be the developers making money. Plus why aren’t councils insisting old deralict properties are knocked down and redeveloped first?

No planning permission for removal of lawns, trees, adding brickweave driveways all over the place. Grass holds a ridiculous amount of water. brickweave and tarmac drain super fast – but then the next place downstream has even more water to deal with.

Spending cuts – EA hasn’t got enough money to build and maintain storm drains. Farmers don’t care about ditches. The unsustainable farming practices in the UK, plus supermarkets remove any profit the farmer makes. They don’t have the money/time to worry about someone elses land flooding.

I really feel sorry for people who cannot sell their house because of the flooding and who cannot afford to insure them.

Both Labour and the Tories have been in power while this is allowed to go on. What annoys me is the current politicians constantly using the word Unprecedented. All the time. It’s not unprecedented. It’s the new norm!
Until they accept this then it’s only going to get worse.

Both Labour and the Tories have been in power while this is allowed to go on. What annoys me is the current politicians constantly using the word Unprecedented. All the time. It’s not unprecedented. It’s the new norm!

It sort of is unprecedented as some of the river levels have broken the previous highs by more than a couple of metres!

Rusty Spanner – Member
Whoa.
Not managed to get out yet – take it all the canalside housing further up toward Tod and down toward Hebden has gone?

From what I’m aware that is the only breach at the moment.

Good.
Thanks for the updates.

I see you, George Osborne.
I see your smarmy face, like a gilded ham or the distilled essence of a hundred estate agents congealed into flesh. I see the single tear rolling down your face at Thatcher’s funeral, the only one you’ve ever shed. I see the cleft in your nose, which presumably is the slot the city bankers swipe their cards through every time they pop in to make a withdrawal from the treasury. I see you wince every time you try to sit down in your expensive leather chair, the long handle of the silver spoon constantly jabbing you in the walls of your colon. It’s painful, isn’t it, George Osborne? But you wouldn’t change it for the world, and you can afford plenty of numbing agents that come in white powders after all.
I see the tinted glass of your London penthouse, George Osborne, the people running around below you like ants. You’re a king up here, aren’t you? You’re like Marie Antoinette, except you’re even hoarding the cake and everyone else can eat shit. You’re a guffawing toff, George Osborne, a honking parasite, a greasy snake-oil salesman poured into a suit and picking the county apart at the seams. Cuts upon cuts upon cuts, George Osborne, packaged up in lies and platitudes and sold by your friends in the media to the proletariat you despise.
Cuts! Lovely, lovely cuts. It’s easy to cut stuff from a London penthouse, isn’t it, George Osborne? You’re safe up here, after all.
I see the clouds darkening, George Osborne, and I hear the rain drumming on the streets. I see the waters rising, sluicing off the fields, filling the rivers that haven’t been dredged in months. Cuts! Lovely cuts. I see the water pouring over the flood defences, into homes and shops, the feeble token investment you’ve made in barriers and walls doing nothing to avert disaster. Cuts!
I hear the phone ringing as the storm rages outside, George Osborne. I hear you giggle, ducking down in your seat, sitting up again and inhaling deeply, your pupils blown and your nose dusted in powder. Cuts! **** ’em, George Osborne. You’re having a blast, aren’t you?
I see the cars swept away, George Osborne, the waters pouring even over the Thames Barrier. I see the swirling tide cascade through the streets, taking black cabs and buses with it. I hear the storm raging, the torrent hammering down, the whirlpools sucking down rubble and collapsing buildings.
And still you laugh, George Osborne. Cuts! Who needs the North anyway? Money wasn’t an object for Somerset, but they voted for you, so they get sandbags. You’re sure everything is fine, but you’re so **** high now you haven’t looked out the window and you’ve no idea what’s coming.
I see the water pour over the tops of all but the highest buildings. It’s just two floors below you now, nearly the whole of London swallowed by the maelstrom. In the distant fog I see the lights and I hear the thunderous horn. Something is coming, George Osborne. Something huge, something angry, something mechanical and yet very much alive.
I see the cogs and the great gears whirring in the floating fortress, George Osborne. I see the paddles splashing, the great chimneys pouring smoke, the furnaces burning. I feel the heat of molten metal and hear the terrible industrial groaning. I see the sailors, each of them stony-faced and staring ahead, fixed on you in the distance. I see their stern faces and I hear their growled orders. It’s here, George Osborne. It’s not a fiction or a fairytale. It’s here, and it’s coming for you.
The Northern Powerhouse, George Osborne. It’s here and it’s pissed off and it’s coming for you.
I see the great fortress power through the squall, the waters boiling away in great gouts of steam in its wake. I see it crash through the tip of the Shard, the clouds of shattered glass sparkling in the sudden light cast by a lightning strike. I hear you laughing obliviously, George Osborne. I see you thrown to the floor and shrieking like a baby as the Powerhouse smashes into your building.
I see the girders twist, George Osborne, parting like shattered teeth to expose you to the howling wind and rain. I see the grappling hooks thrown into the room, catching on mahogany furniture and priceless fur rugs. I see you scramble to your feet, laughing manically, blood pouring from one powdered nostril. I hear you roar as the sailors rappel down the lines, landing in the room and lining up before you.
Northerners. Your natural enemy, George Osborne.
I see them draw their knives, George Osborne. I see their thin blades and razor edges. Ten men, and a hundred cuts each.
Cuts, George Osborne. Lovely, lovely cuts. Cuts to services. Cuts to welfare spending. Cuts to flesh.
Death by a thousand cuts, George Osborne.
I see you, George Osborne. I **** see you.

From facebook

I’m no expert but I’ve read a lot of stuff saying the dredging thing is a load of bollocks. Just means faster flowing water hitting somewhere further downstream. It can work in certain areas but would be of no use to Calderdale, apparently.

I’ve woken up with rotten lurgy – hopefully not related to sweeping out manky flood water yesterday. Going to try and head down into town and help for a bit anyway.

Climate scientists might as well been talking out of there arses for the notice government has taken. Wetter Milder winters was the warning. They should used “Biblically Wet and Stupidly warm winters” but would have been accused of Hyperbolic scaremongering. Tories still pay lip service to Climate Change and will never use the A word it’s a lefty/green conspiracy I tell ya !

Road update from WestYorks Police: Movement in the A646 Burnley Rd into Hebden Bridge has reduced it to one lane causing delays.Please avoid.

To the left of that is the canal and the Calder. Downstream, Mytholmroyd

Woodlikesbeer +1

Got to say you guys in the Flood area have my sympathies, couldn’t believe it when I eventually re surfaced after Christmas to read about it. So sorry for you all, there are quite a lot of folk on this forum from up that way aren’t there? Terrible thing flooding.

Plus why aren’t councils insisting old deralict properties are knocked down and redeveloped first?

A couple of reasons. First there’s not as much profit as building on green land. Second, just because a property is empty and / or derelict it still has an owner. Thousands of properties across the country are being kept empty whilst the value of the land they are built on increases. If they are rented out, then expense is incurred.

There is not a housing shortage in this country, there is a shortage of affordable housing. How is building thousands of detached properties on green land going to address this?. It’s not. It just generates more money.

Coyote has really hit the nail on the head. Addressing it could deal with quite a few societal issues.

We had a “what would you do if you won the £100 million Euros jackpot” conversation at work a couple of weeks ago. I said I’d keep £10 million for me and plough the rest into a charitable trust building/offering affordable rental housing on derelict/brown field sites.

Pretty sure it would be viable if you take away the over riding profit motive. Maybe offer some of those in need of the housing apprenticeships and jobs in the building trades involved as well.

Cut n pasted from The Grauniad comments page:

Floods hit Thames Valley stockbroker belt in 2014;
“Nothing is more important than dealing with these floods. Money is no object in this relief effort.” – David Cameron.

Floods hit Northern England in 2015;
After every flood, the thing to do is sit down, look at the money you are spending, look at what you are building, look at what you are planning to build in the future and ask: ‘Is it enough?’” – David Cameron.

They were declared unprecedented in Summer 2007 when a months worth of rain fell in 24 hours causing flooding across Northern Ireland, Yorkshire, Gloucestershire, Worcestershire, Herefordshire and Oxfordshire resulting in 13 deaths and £6 billion of damage.

They were unprecedented in 2009 when we had the wettest November and December since 1914 and most of the UK experienced some flooding resulting in 4 deaths.

It was unprecedented in 2012 when large thunderstorms caused flash flooding across Worcestershire and Northamptonshire resulting in 9 deaths and £1 billion of damage.

It was unprecedented in 2013-2014 when we saw the wettest December-January since 1876 and the Somerset Levels disappeared causing at least 17 deaths.

When do these events stop being unprecedented and become precedented?

When do these events stop being unprecedented and become precedented?

when that level of flooding has been seen before ?

As an aside, a friend of mine is a firefighter in Cumbria, and has asked me to check he’s not going crazy. Although they don’t ask for publicity, he’s wondering why there are lots of photos and comments in the media about what the Police and Army are doing to help, but nothing of the fire crews.

Thought he was perhaps being a little paranoid, so hunted around for a couple of days. He’s right: nada. Even though the crews are all over it, working 24/7 shifts.

Whats going on here then?

Thought he was perhaps being a little paranoid, so hunted around for a couple of days. He’s right: nada. Even though the crews are all over it, working 24/7 shifts.

Whats going on here then?

Took about 5 seconds to find a photo on Google: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/weather/9747055/Britain-braced-for-flooding-as-heavy-rain-returns.html

It doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be getting a bit more publicity, but it’s a stretch to say they’re being completely ignored. And the army will always get more publicity as they’re only called out in exceptional circumstances.

The army should be asking why troops are wading around in standard uniform when the blue light services won’t go near the water without full PPE and rescue gear (quite rightly)

As an aside, a friend of mine is a firefighter in Cumbria, and has asked me to check he’s not going crazy. Although they don’t ask for publicity, he’s wondering why there are lots of photos and comments in the media about what the Police and Army are doing to help, but nothing of the fire crews.

The fire service was the main one on the boats with reporters etc in Cumbria, in fact police and ambulance have been quiet in the news

They will also have a press team, they are probably on holiday skiing somewhere ATM (with a lot of reporters) which is why the press stuff is less. The FBU will also have a press team, I bet they are on holiday too. No conspiracy, just the people who get stories into the press/ TV not around

Hebden Area updates:

Towpath from Hebden as far as Calis Bridge is in a dire state. Chunks out of it at Stubbing Warff, and the section below the moorings at Calis Bridge is closed – it’s more or less breached, it’ll go if we get more water down. The houses there are in a bad way – one has had their sittingroom floor collapse into their basement.

Lots of trees in the water and quite a few landslips into the canal. On the Calder side, there are landslips into the river by the house on stilts and the wall below the house looks really dodgy.

Calis Bridge is fine – the bridge above it…not so sure. Road up from Calis to the PBW is fine, bridleway above the DH trails is fine – trails took a hammering. Old Chamber – Honestly box is fine all the way down to town. Chipps’s Birthday looks pretty clear on the top section, under the bridge all the boulders have moved, below it… nightmare.

Will ride a bit more tomorrow after cleaning someones shop in the morning.

G

Greg

If people want to come over to help out with the cleanup is there something organised?

Dredging is an interesting point in that article. There are arguments for and against, but I know that where we lived on the edge of the Fens the river that left the tidemark in 53 was fine when it was dreged when I was a kid, but after they stopped dredging it peaked higher and higher, causing my parents to move, and within a couple of years of them moving they had the first flood alert for 30 years. Dredging may or may not have been a factor.

They used to pile the dredged material to build up flood banks iirc
Same as the Somerset Levels, both are totally man-made environments just like most of the Nederlands. The Levels were created around 1000-1500 years ago by monks digging drains and ditches to allow the marshes to be used for cultivation, so in order for the land to be continued to be used for that purpose, and people to continue to live where they have for generations, the drains have to be kept clear.mthis much is just common sense; if you take a pint mug, fill the bottom third with sand, then try to pour a pint into it, you really shouldn’t act all surprised when your shoes get wet, but that does seem to have been the way the EA has behaved for the last twenty years, and there are still idiots bleating that dredging doesn’t work!
Of course it works, when it’s being carried out in an environment that was artificially created by dredging ditches.
The situation up north now is obviously different, as most of the rivers are rocky, and can’t really be dredged, the problem seems to be down to sheer volume of water cascading off the high ground; this needs to be looked at quickly to try to find ways to absorb the water high up, to slow the flow into lower areas.

Countzero- dredging doesn’t work. Sea levels are getting higher. It doesn’t matter how deep the bottom of the drain is if it’s below the sea it’s trying to drain into. That’s what happened in Somerset and that is what’s going to happen again and again.

when that level of flooding has been seen before ?

So its the level and not the frequency of these events then?

Panic over chaps.

Stuff about dredging:

Dredged Up

It’s truly awful some of the footage. However, the support local commutines are doing for each other across Calderdale is inspirational.

As an aside, a friend of mine is a firefighter in Cumbria, and has asked me to check he’s not going crazy. Although they don’t ask for publicity, he’s wondering why there are lots of photos and comments in the media about what the Police and Army are doing to help, but nothing of the fire crews.

Really? That’s his concern that they’re not getting coverage?

I hate to be the harbinger of more bad news, but Storm Frank isn’t going to help midweek.

I’m guessing planting a shed load of trees on the Pennines /moors would be the only realistic long term solution.

Dredging and building barriers is massively expensive, and only seems to shift the problem down river.

Sea levels are getting higher.

By about 1.4mm per year. I doubt that is enough to be a huge factor in recent flooding.

I’d be very surprised if anyone is making the dredging argument for some of the catchments currently experiencing flooding.

Rising sea levels are not the problem, they are ‘a’ problem, but not in this case.. it’s increased rainfall… Not massively increased but a prolonged slight increase.

Once the hills are saturated, the water just runs down them into streams and rivers.. And towns in valleys get flooded.

However, the support local commutines are doing for each other across Calderdale is inspirational.

+1 It truly is. Never ceases to amaze me how generous Brits are to one another when shit like this happens.

And don’t you worry, once the MPs are back from stuffing their faces they’ll be falling over themselves to tell us how inspirational the communities have been. But I dunno, something tells me these communities have been a bit shafted to be in this position in the first place.

If windfarms came in the top 100 contributors to flooding I would be suprisedamazed.

So you don’t see the loss of large swathes of deep peat moorland as an effective sponge as a top 100 contributer? Or do they parachute in the 150 t cranes that they use to build and maintain the turbines on to floating cushions?

The construction of the access roads and the culverting they need cause an accelerated loss of peat and create new watercourses . Not to mention the damage to water quality for water companies and private supplies as the peat no longer acts as the buffer during rainfall events

Separate issue:

Cycle factory Todmorden:

PLEASE SHARE HELP FIND THESE Struggling for words here we got flooded on Saturday as did a lot of people. Last night we were robbed by the scum of the earth preying on flood victims. Please like and share to help find these bikes. I’ll try list them properly with an edit later. Some new in boxes some customers bikes some reps bikes.
2016 Kona Process 153 medium
2016 Kona Hei Hei Trail medium only one in the country!
2016 Kona Process 111 medium
2016 Kona Precept 150 large (boxed)
2015 Mondraker Dune XR Large
2016 Cube Analog 19″ boxed
2016 Cube Analog 21″ boxed

Cycle factory Todmorden after clearing up after floods, really nice salt of the earth folk, if anyone can help contact on facebook address below.

https://www.facebook.com/cyclefactoryuk/