F1 2021 – spoilers here

It’s lose-lose for Pirelli.

Yeah, I’ve always thought that a single tyre supplier model makes this inevitable, as well as removing a nice layer of variation in the season where some tracks suited one supplier better than another.

Was it red bull pit wall saying there was absolutely no indication on the telemetry that the tyre was going to go? Does that not indicate a catastrophic puncture? Add in verstappen was just beyond the area stroll stuffed it.

Does that not indicate a catastrophic puncture? Add in verstappen was just beyond the area stroll stuffed it.

Well yes, it was a catastrophic puncture, the question is if it was caused by debris or some other aspect of tyre failure. I’d have thought with it being the same part of the track, it lends weight to the debris argument? Same area, some tiny splinters of carbon fibre…

OTOH same part of the track with sustained max speed putting enormous forces through a (potentially) already failing tyre

OTOH same part of the track with sustained max speed putting enormous forces through a (potentially) already failing tyre

I thought both tyre failures were on the straight, which doesn’t stress the tyres as much as corners. The most highly loaded tyres on that circuit are apparently the right rear, but both failures were the left rear. Hamilton also had a cut on his left rear tyre. That points to debris or running over a curb damaging the same tyres on three cars.

The telemetry would show a failing tyre through vibration?

Average grid position:

VER 2.3
HAM 2.5
LEC 3.7
BOT 4.7
SAI 6.5
NOR/PER 6.8
GAS 9.5
OCO 9.8
RIC 10
ALO/VET 12.2
STR 13.3
RUS 13.8
GIO 14.2
TSU 14.5
RAI 15
LAT 17
MSC 18.5
MAZ 19.3

— Andrew Benson (@andrewbensonf1) June 7, 2021

f1.insider and sky italia both reporting that Russell has been told he’s replacing Bottas next year

Planet f1 story

Honestly, his performance standing in for Hamilton last season notwithstanding, I don’t think Russel will make that much more of a difference than Bottas has to Mercedes. He’ll be expected to be a number two driver, for as long as Hamilton remains in the team, something that Bottas has managed to do more than capably. It’s only the increasingly good Red Bull car and more difficult to drive and underperforming (by their standards) 2021 Mercedes that has seen Bottas slip down the rankings from his normal No2 in the championship standings (which is his job after all)

Unless Mercedes see Russel as a successor to Hamilton in the medium/long term, this feels like re-arranging the deckchairs, and one race vs a season under the sort of pressure that Mercedes would put him under are completely different, just see what effect that had on Gasly for instance

Unless Mercedes see Russel as a successor to Hamilton in the medium/long term

this….

also being reported that Hamilton is about to sign another 1 year contract so having Russell locked in and experienced in the team means makes sense

but I agree, there could be problems if Russell is capable of, and allowed, to consistently beat Hamilton…and by all accounts, he is very very good

f1.insider and sky italia both reporting that Russell has been told he’s replacing Bottas next year

Hamilton is only on a 1 year contract too so no guarantees he’ll stay, especially with a hot-shoe team mate who could damage his ‘GOAT’ credentials. Though for the record I doubt GR would beat Lewis over a season, Hamilton’s ability to drag results out of bad situations is one of the outstanding aspects of his career. Except in Baku, obvs.

and by all accounts, he is very very good

Oh sure he seems to wrestle results from the Williams, and by all accounts it has no business being anywhere near the sorts of grid places that Russel seems to be able to put it. BUT…it’s one thing to be comfortable over-performing in a car that has low expectations and you’re familiar with, quite another to putting in the sorts of routine first and second on the grid that drivers like Hamilton and Verstappen are expected to do week in week out.

I really hope he does well, he seems like a nice kid with bags of talent,  but 2nd seat in the Mercedes right now feels like a poisoned chalice.

He’ll be expected to be a number two driver, for as long as Hamilton remains in the team

No, he’ll be expected to perform to the best of his ability, just like Rosberg was. If Russell turns out to be faster than Hamilton, that will be Hamilton’s problem to deal with. Bottas wasn’t signed as a number 2 in the sense of not being allowed to beat Hamilton. He has generally qualified well but been outraced by Hamilton, but his performances have been good enough to secure the constructor’s championship. That’s worked out well for Merc, but Russell will not be held back from beating Hamilton if he’s fast enough.

Hamilton is only on a 1 year contract too so no guarantees he’ll stay,

Both Hamilton and Merc have announced they want to sign a new multi-year deal. The one-year deal this time was just because covid interfered with their negotiations and they didn’t have time to sort out the details of a longer-term deal. Both sides want to continue so it’s all but guaranteed that Hamilton will be in a Merc next year. Only real question is over who will be in the other car. Bottas has not impressed this year so dropping him for Russell would make sense.

Bottas has not impressed this year so dropping him for Russell would make sense.

Plus new regulations for 2022, new/younger driver might do better.

Hopefully it’s true as Russell has definitely showed he’s worthy of a shot in a big team.

but I agree, there could be problems if Russell is capable of, and allowed, to consistently beat Hamilton…and by all accounts, he is very very good

Hamilton likes competitive racing and has occasionally expressed his willingness to have Bottas pushing him on a regular basis. Add in that he’s smashed all the records and can only push them further then I’d imagine he’ll relish the challenge of having a young teammate to fend off again. He can also help Russell develop and integrate with the team, handing over the reins to the next generation. Where it could get difficult is if they both score points off each other and allow another team to get either title, in that scenario I’d expect Toto to back Hamilton over Russell for strategy decisions. Mercedes know that Russell is their future for the next decade and if they don’t put him in the car this year they will lose him.

I really hope he does well, he seems like a nice kid with bags of talent, but 2nd seat in the Mercedes right now feels like a poisoned chalice.

A better seat than the no2 at Red Bull!

I really hope he does well, he seems like a nice kid with bags of talent, but 2nd seat in the Mercedes right now feels like a poisoned chalice.

There’s quite a lot of things at play here, but the most important is that although Hamilton is at the top of his game but isn’t getting any younger at 35. Sooner or later Merc will need to plan for succession.

Merc could either opt for someone young, experienced and hungry for a title like Verstappen, Leclerc or even Norris but Verstappen is unlikely to leave RB if he’s winning races and contending for championships with them and Leclerc and Norris both have long(ish) term contracts, so it makes sense to promote one of their junior drivers – Russell or Ocon.

Ocon has shown patchy form at Renault against Ricciardo, but the Alpine seems to be working out for him. Russell has his stand in performance in the Merc last year to his credit, he’s very much a known quantity and a year spent as Hamilton’s apprentice could set Russell up for a title fight in ’23.

Bottas hasn’t had the best of seasons so far. Given that red bill have upped their game it’s becoming more apparent that Bottas isn’t close enough to the front to be a factor on team tactics and strategies

chrismac
Full Member

Bottas hasn’t had the best of seasons so far. Given that red bill have upped their game

The first(?) year they’ve really needed him to do a job and he’s not able to do it. Definitely a good way to lose your seat

Although really with the massive changes to ’22 season cars, it could be a blank slate. remember Brawn in 2009? It could be that Merc don’t build a great car, it could be that Ferrari or McLaren exploit some loophole and suddenly go from third and fourth on the grid to one and two again…who knows!

Although really with the massive changes to ’22 season cars, it could be a blank slate. remember Brawn in 2009?

That’s been widely discussed for the last few years but everyone seems to think it’s unlikely to happen this time around. Two things happened with Brawn. The first was that Honda had an utter dog of a car the previous year. It was so bad that they just abandoned development in order to work on the new rules. The only team in that situation this year is Haas, but they don’t have the resources that Honda had.

The second thing was that Honda gambled on the double diffuser being legal, whereas other leading teams didn’t think it would be allowed. From memory, the legality hinged on the definitions of “hole” and “slot”. I think it was something along the lines that holes were legal, a hole being defined as being able to see through to the ground vertically. Slots were not legal, so Honda just made sure all the slots in the diffuser (which bled air between the two parts of the diffuser) met the legal definition of being a hole.

Anyway, the double diffuser apparently didn’t give as big an advantage as it first appeared, only about 0.3 seconds per lap, not the 1 second per lap advantage that Brawn started with. What the double diffuser did was made the car less sensitive to changes in the front wing. That allowed Honda to develop the front wing much faster because they didn’t need to reconfigure the rear of the car for each new front wing that they tested in the wind tunnel. Once Red Bull and McLaren build double diffusers, they quickly out-developed Brawn and were much faster by the end of the year.

The new regs have apparently been written to try to avoid any obvious oversights like the double diffuser so it seems unlikely that there will be something huge that only one team discovers. The development rate under the new regs will be extremely fast so it will be more about who can improve fastest than who starts off fastest. Despite the cost cap, the other teams still haven’t caught up with the technical resources that Merc, Red Bull, and Ferrari have, so those three are unlikely to fall too far from the front. There will be some reshuffling, but I don’t think Haas or Williams are going to suddenly start winning races or Merc or Red Bull going to fall to the back.

The new regs have apparently been written to try to avoid any obvious oversights

When the regs were written for the 2009 season, I am 100% positive that the FIA beleived that they had also not left any oversights at that time too.

There will always be loopholes, interpretation, battles of legality. That is what F1 is about.

I am not saying it will be all change, and all of a sudden there’ll be a new team at the top. But what I am saying is – its not impossible, or even unlikely. We can speculate, guesstimate, and predict till the cows come home, and lord knows I love to do that myself. But we just dont know.

Thats why I love it!

Expect to see more driver speculation this weekend, its the only way of making the French GP interesting.

Expect to see more driver speculation this weekend, its the only way of making the French GP interesting.

So true 😂

What ever happens at the french gp it will be way more Entertaining than the Monaco Street parade

Sorry to come back to tyres but what are the thoughts on this?

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/pirelli-concludes-investigation-into-baku-f1-tyre-failures/6572228/

Sounds like they think RB and Aston are doing something cheeky with tyre pressures?

Yeah I read that and thought the same

Sounds like they think RB and Aston are doing something cheeky with tyre pressures?

Hmmm….Pirelli pre-Baku qualifying tyre pressures announcement.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/57476106

Playing Cluedo with tyres https://t.co/CdIQCboKsT

— Joe Saward (@joesaward) June 16, 2021

Info about to come out that suggests some teams may have been 'a bit' naughty with tyres. I'm expecting a noticeable effect on performance for the teams that require remedial tyre management training

— Richard Ready (@SpannersReady) June 16, 2021

Interesting about the tyres, I suppose some sort of cheeky valve that keeps the pressures low even when the tyres heat up is easily possible

What ever happens at the french gp it will be way more Entertaining than the Monaco Street parade

My main objection to the French GP is that they could change the layout for better racing with zero effort, but some how they persist with a shit one that’s terrible for overtaking.

Interesting about the tyres, I suppose some sort of cheeky valve that keeps the pressures low even when the tyres heat up is easily possible

Gary Anderson said something last week about teams overpressurizing and overheating the tyres before fitting to the cars, then letting them cool. His concern was that this can affect the bonding of the belts to the rubber, possibly compromising the structure of the tyre. I couldn’t quite understand what the benefit was, maybe it gets the rim and core of the tyre up to a higher temperature but the tread cools to the specified limit before the pressure check is done. Then, the core of the tyre will cool and the pressure will drop below the limit after the scrutineers have finished checking.

Seems like all sorts of tricks going on!…

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/the-f1-tyre-tricks-that-new-clampdown-will-stamp-out/6574186/

Felix will be replaced for the REV Group Grand Prix by Kevin Magnussen, who will be making his INDYCAR debut. Magnussen made 19 starts for the McLaren Formula 1 team in 2014, including a career-best finish of second at the Australian Grand Prix that year. pic.twitter.com/deZpO5a6E7

— Arrow McLaren SP (@ArrowMcLarenSP) June 16, 2021

that’s the same guy, pre and post lock down

the-muffin-man
Full Member

Seems like all sorts of tricks going on!…

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/the-f1-tyre-tricks-that-new-clampdown-will-stamp-out/6574186/

I love all this stuff! Will be interesting to see who suddenly loses a lot of pace this weekend compared to baku…

It’s really good to see McLaren become a proper racing team again, not just an F1 team. I like seeing them in different branches of motorsport.

Perhaps the budget cap will lead to other F1 teams spreading their wings so they can keep the good staff they have built up.

All we need now is to go back to the 60s where drivers raced in different series every weekend! 🙂

I couldn’t quite understand what the benefit was, maybe it gets the rim and core of the tyre up to a higher temperature but the tread cools to the specified limit before the pressure check is done. Then, the core of the tyre will cool and the pressure will drop below the limit after the scrutineers have finished checking.

One way of doing it would be to heat the rim more than the tyre, this would keep the surface temperature to the prescribed test level but the air inside would be hotter and thus at a higher pressure. If you then drop the pressure down to the mandated level and then be able to drop further as it cools, giving you a grip advantage when it comes back up to operating temperature. Traditional tyre blankets direct the heat at the tread area, meaning the rim is relatively cool but they would leave them switched on for a few hours to allow the temperature to stabilise. If they heated from the rim outwards it takes longer for the tread area to warm up and the air would be hotter, it’s just playing with thermodynamics.

I seem to remember Ferrari doing something with tyre warming a while back, using small ovens instead of blankets to aid their qualifying performance? I think it was banned on a technicality but it must be a similar idea to that.

EDIT: found an old Pistonheads thread about it here but no contemporary news articles. There is one about Super Aguri on Autosport doing a similar thing though.

I love all this stuff! Will be interesting to see who suddenly loses a lot of pace this weekend compared to baku…

I’d bet nobody loses pace because of it. It’s not as blatant as when Merc were runing under pressure. I reckon they’ll all be at it and it’s all marginal gains stuff (remember it was the least stressed tyres going at Baku rather than the ones doing all the work)