EU Referendum – are you in or out?

dazh you seem to be romanticizing these downtrodden cry-for-help brexiters

the demographics & pesumably motivation for voting leave are far more complex than that

Leave is associated with older age, white ethnicity, low educational attainment, infrequent use of smartphones and the internet, receiving benefits, adverse health and low life satisfaction. These results coincide with corresponding patterns at the aggregate level of voting areas. We therefore do not find evidence of ecological fallacy. In addition, we show that prediction accuracy is geographically heterogeneous across UK regions, with strongly pro-Leave and strongly pro-Remain areas easier to predict. We also show that among individuals with similar socio-economic characteristics, Labour supporters are more likely to support Remain while Conservative supporters are more likely to support Leave.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176268018301320

that aside its obvious that brexit is a shitshow & damaging the country & that the poorest will suffer the most, why do you seem so keen for that to happen?

You see they don’t give a shit about your life or the patronising sympathy you may have had for them, or the taxes you think you generously pay. You think they don’t want opportunities for their kids like you do?

They don’t though do they, you see this in their children’s attitude towards education. The working classes have a lot of contempt for teachers and education in general.

It’s pure entitlement.

wealth as you proudly proclaim are in a position to give their kids a leg up.

Why the **** should I give one of thier multiple thick kids a leg up as opposed to some bright kids from the developing world? Why are they allowed to spew out as many kids as they **** like without satisfying border control that their income can cover it?

Border control on vaginas please.

You haven’t convinced me, **** them all.

Dazh isn’t romanticising anything. I think he’s trying to take a proper look at society rather than just blurt out ‘leavers are ****’.

I’m a remainer, I’m as horrified as anyone, but even I’m finding this kind of thoughtlessness hard to swallow.

I’m finding it hard to add to any brexit disgusion out of sheer head slapping frustration but…

You’re implying there were proper ‘rules’ for the referendum;)

To torture the football analogy further, any team breaking financial fair play are sanctioned and anyone in administration are relegated. Just playing an unregistered or banned player can result in a 3-0 forfeit. Shall I go on?

Of course, football rules, whilst not perfect, have been refined over many years and challenged in the courts on occasion…

Not all teams that fail ffp get sanctioned and no one has ever been relegated for going in to administration. They get a points deduction that may lead to relegation but plenty have survived it, my team Leeds a decent example having been deducted 15 points but then nearly getting promoted.

And this is exactly why they voted for brexit. You see they don’t give a shit about your life or the patronising sympathy you may have had for them, or the taxes you think you generously pay. You think they don’t want opportunities for their kids like you do? The difference is that people like yourself who can afford a 20% drop in wealth as you proudly proclaim are in a position to give their kids a leg up. Because the taxes you and everyone above you pay are not enough to provide decent opportunities and services for people who don’t have the luxury of savings or disposable income to pay for the things you take for granted. So yes, they’ll vote for a change, any change. They’ll grasp at any straw that is offered them. And yes, sadly, they’ll also be taken in by snake oil salesmen telling them that it’s the fault of foreigners or whoever else is an easy scapegoat, because they’re too busy trying to pay the bills and feed their kids to figure out who’s really at fault.

Taxes certainly won’t be enough if we continue to spunk £800m a week or whatever it is on preparing for an act of self harm. You seem remarkably angry about the parlous state people are in, but then use this as a reason as to why they must be screwed over. Strange times. Strange contortions people are putting themselves in.

Anyone who still thinks we should go through with this falls into two categories. Exploiters who are going to make a quick buck when the country burns or cretins. The types who think they’re getting National Socialism (you know, the ones who wear a leather jacket with a shirt and tie) are also cretins, because the real movers behind this don’t give a shit about them.

Exploiter or cretin. Or call it off. It couldn’t be clearer.

dazh you seem to be romanticizing these downtrodden cry-for-help brexiters

Nope, not romanticising them at all. I grew up as one of them and got out at the first opportunity as I couldn’t stand the small minded parochial mindset of a Newcastle council estate. They used to call me a snob, and still do. I even got called a traitor once when I went back to the local pub after a long time away. Doesn’t mean I don’t understand where they’re coming from, or what they’re thinking*.

They really don’t care what the middle classes think of them. They hate them quite frankly, and would happily make themselves poorer if they thought it would burst the comfortable and hubristic bubble that exists in places like this forum. That may be irrational, but they’re used to dealing with adversity, and one more thing to deal with is not really going to trouble them.

*It’s not universal to be fair, attitudes towards brexit are varied, but I can guarantee that any hint of snobbery will send them into the arms of the brexiteers.

Too obviously provocative raybanwomble. Nought out of ten.

one more thing to deal with is not really going to trouble them

That is where you are wrong. They only think they have nothing now. But they can go to the local hospital for free with whatever ailments they may have. That will go.

The working classes have a lot of contempt for teachers and education in general.

Cockwomble, surely.

It comes down to politicians doing thier jobs (or not).

If brexit was a costed project it would never have gotten out of incubation due to all the questions and the potential massive cost.

MPs are not project managers, but they bloody well should be, it’s not thier job to do as they’re told, but they should consider the electorates opinion and act in the best interests of all.

This doesn’t seem to happen, and is dereliction of duty.

They only think they have nothing now.

Try going to a council estate pub in Newcastle or Sunderland and giving the locals a lecture on how they don’t understand how hard things can get. I can guarantee you’ll be lucky to walk out under your own steam.

Dazh.

I come from the same streets too, this is predominantly my family I’m talking about who despise me because I worked like hell to get out rather than just sit in Castleford doing **** all after the pits closed.

I always thought they could get out too but the bottom line is most of them just can’t be bothered.

They don’t want a fair crack of the whip, they want it on a plate, no risk, no cost to them. And if they don’t get it run it surely must be someone else’s fault.

That’s what really worries me, I’m almost 40, and I’ve enjoyed a very cushty life despite having an overdraft, bad credit, and not being able to secure a mortgage despite earning enough to pay for it.

I think a lot of people don’t appreciate just how lucky they are to live in times of such stability.

Maybe it really will take the price of a pint of milk rising to a fiver, and empty supermarket shelves before they understand that there is no universal guarantee that “every thing is fine and it always will be”.

dazh while I agree that mtbing is a middle class hobby, were not all wood burning stove, T4 drivers that winter in courcheval.
Also grew up in a council estate, tho moved away when I was 6, have friends & family who had similar backgrounds to me & still voted leave- my brother being a good case control there, hes married a racist lazy idiot & sadly spouts the same crap she does.
School for him was always about footy with his mates, i went to uni 1st in my family etc, he joined the navy- got electrician qaulification, earns more than me, but still has racked up crazy debts with his stupid wife- blaming immigrants & the EU is simply easier for him than admitting that he made crap decisions.
Brexit is properly straining my realtionship with him, quite frankly he is an idiot, his wifes company (also electrical) is struggling to stockpile b4 brexit & obviously its all the EUs fault. I had to leave the room.
Dont get me started on my parents…..

Its obvious to all that brexit is a car crash of epic proportions, that so many people still think its a good idea, is evidence that people are doubling down on the tribalism & are going to be in for a painful come down when it doesnt deliver what was promised.

Totally agree with Mattyfez

We’ve been very very lucky in this country. More through luck than judgement in most cases. Though you can’t acknowledge that in this atmosphere of Nationalist English Exceptionalism

Just because it’s never happened here before, doesn’t mean it won’t….

People need to wake up to reality, rather than the cosy nationalist fairy tales they’ve been sold by the right wing press (who can easily afford a five pound pint of milk in there tax-free nirvana)

Try going to a council estate pub in Newcastle or Sunderland and giving the locals a lecture on how they don’t understand how hard things can get. I can guarantee you’ll be lucky to walk out under your own steam.

Give it five years and I won’t have to.

So, what you are basically saying is:

We have to let them get screwed over because it is what they want.

Yet, you jump on people who say “**** em, it’s what they voted for”.

Strange times. Strange contortions.

Shit is going to hit the fan big time, I don’t think brexit punters really understood the damage it would cause to UK food supply’s and possibly a 40% tariff on basic food stuff.

To be honest it’s a mahoosive f-up.

And scary, ridiculous situation.

Shit is going to hit the fan big time, I don’t think brexit punters really understood the damage it would cause to UK food supply’s and possibly a 40% tariff on basic food stuff.

To be honest it’s a mahoosive f-up.

And scary, ridiculous situation.

But we can’t call it off because people in council estate pubs in Sunderland will kick off if they aren’t allowed to be screwed over by their own hang ups and prejudices.

Is anyone else starting to think that even LSD wouldn’t make this shit seem any weirder?

that so many people still think its a good idea, is evidence that people are doubling down on the tribalism & are going to be in for a painful come down when it doesnt deliver what was promised.

Absolutely. This is why I keep saying that howling insults at the other side and celebrating the inevitable job losses and suffering that brexit will bring about is self defeating, even if we disagree with the other side. Where will it end? How low do we have to go before everyone comes to their senses? I don’t want to be melodramatic but history is littered with examples of previously stable and successful societies which descended into chaos and violence. We can either carry on down our spiralling holes of hatred, or we can break out of them before we reach a point of no return. I know what I would prefer, and if that means accepting brexit, then so be it.

Last post from me on this.

I also object to the middle class jibes. I still work for a living and both me and my wife are from mining families.

Now I’ve retrained as a nurse I’m obviously part of the chosen elite and deserve the hatred of those poor souls who weren’t as fortunate as me.

I know what I would prefer, and if that means accepting brexit, then so be it.

I see absolutely no evidence that accepting Brexit will resolve anything, I can assure you that my brother & his wife will just find something else to blame crap on.
a poorer country will be an even more bitter & divided one, and even more fertile ground for extreme views.

Now I’ve retrained as a nurse I’m obviously part of the chosen elite and deserve the hatred of those poor souls who weren’t as fortunate as me.

I’m not saying they’re justified, just pointing out that’s how they think. Whether we like it or not, this is the reality. We can either recognise it and do something about it, or carry on retreating into our respective corners. As always with these things, the solution is understanding the other side and showing empathy, even if that is unpalatable.

I see absolutely no evidence that accepting Brexit will resolve anything, I can assure you that my brother & his wife will just find something else to blame crap on.

To clarify I’m talking about the softest brexit possible not a no deal scenario. Preferably that would be a customs union + single market option with free movement, at the very least a customs union for obvious reasons. And for the record anyone wanting a no deal is quite frankly an idiot, but I think only a small minority are in that camp.

I don’t want to be melodramatic but history is littered with example of previously stable and successful societies which descended into chaos and violence. We can either carry on down our spiralling holes of hatred, or we can break out of them before we reach a point of no return.

Totally agree. I’m more than happy to work, pay my taxes and contribute to society. I won’t rant on about, and never have. At the % I pay, that is really quite awesome of me.

If I lose my job, there’ll be less in the pot for those really in need.

Where’s the upside again?

Or just pass the acid and we’ll all take a trip together?

One last time, although I’m going to bed now, so I won’t see the contortions that have to be gone through to get an answer.

WHY IS BREXIT A GOOD THING AND WHY SHOULD IT HAPPEN?

What’s all this mention of class stuff, we all sh-t in the same bucket, I think some/a lot brexiteer’s were most definitely not told the true negative effects of leaving the EU, personally I think we should never of joined to start with.

We should of kept our farms and stayed as much self sufficient as we once were instead of selling farms and land/posh house barn conversions or building shit housing estates on arrible land.

Politicians should of planned for an EU Failure.

Proper fkup

**** me.

I was only joking about the acid.

And for the record anyone wanting a no deal is quite frankly an idiot, but I think only a small minority are in that camp.

leaving without a deal has polled consistently at around 30% – its propa brexit!

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-there-was-a-referendum-tomorrow-with-the-option-of-remaining-in-the-eu-accepting-the-governments-brexit-agreement-or-leaving-the-eu-without-a-deal-which-would-you-support-2-2/

We should of kept our farms and stayed as much self sufficient as we once were

When was this?

What were we eating?

My biggest fear is not that they’ve an agenda. I used to think that. I now don’t think they have. That’s crediting them with far too much intellect

Now? We’ll crash out, no deal, and look to the people who wanted this and say “right… you’ve got what you wanted. What now?”

And I know they’ll have about as much idea as there was the day after the vote.

There’s no plan. There’s no vision. There’s no anything. Just….

What?

Empty rhetoric and broken promises

I’ve worked on a few cattle farms and they have all but gone both meat and dairy, turned into poncy horse stables and the fields only for hay.

We are not as self sustainable as we were before we joined the EU.

Society has changed completely we rely on supermarkets at the best price and unfortunately their is not enough food in the uk alone to feed happy go lucky shoppers who want everything on the shelves all year round.

Leaving the EU, it has been quoted today that ;

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2019/feb/21/uk-and-ireland-retailers-warn-of-40-tariffs-on-food-in-no-deal-brexit

So what are you saying? Eat turnips instead of salad?

Aye they be lucky to get Turrnips around these parts. Lol

Praps a few magic mushrooms ay!

50p a bag of all sorts of em.

So be seeing you next weekend then (giggles not maybe)

It’s easier to throw a turnip at a brexiteer than slap them with a limp romaine lettuce

Blimey, what a tangled web we weave.

Actually, apologies the first bit of your post said much the same as mine, although I would take the other conclusions from the twitter source with a pinch of salt until the judgement is published.

It is somewhat ironic how the Miller case keeps on helping the Brexit process.

Aodhán Connolly, of NIRC, said people in Northern Ireland would be hardest hit. “Our households already have half of the discretionary income of British households and less than those in the Republic of Ireland. A no-deal Brexit will hit us first and hit us hardest. This is not acceptable.”

Surely this is all part of a Catholic plot led ny Jacob O’Reece Mogg to make reunification more attractive.

Rabid politicians have broken the UK. It will recover – eventually.

It’s what happens in the “eventually” that’s the problem.

When we wake up to our new reality, we’ll find that a huge trading bloc that was our partner is now a ruthless competitor, and not only that, has snaffled most of our large profitable international trading entities.

Meanwhile, our large “friend” across the Atlantic will prove to be the sort of friend whose unspoken agenda for over 100 years has been the dismantling of the British empire. Fortunately, our chefs will rise to the occasion with new and ingenious recipes for red slime.

But the good news is that our Establishment class will be on the ascendant again. With the increases in their fortunes from shorting British industry, and their tax evasion tactics secure, they will be able to restore their family mansions (with a wee bit of help from the taxpayer), and staffing them will be no problem because there’s plenty of cheap labour.

And there will be a surge in royal babies to keep us distracted.

See, there’s always a silver lining. 🙂

We are not as self sustainable as we were before we joined the EU.

Way before that. First world war the country suffered and second world war it suffered again due to the reliance on imported food and the Germans played on that.
The country hasn’t needed to be self sustainable as it can import freely from EU where a lot of food can be grown more efficiently due to climate.

The UK could easily become self sufficient in food – give grants to growers, allow south west to be covered in poly tunnels, use automated planting/picking etc,. but there is/was no need to ever do that.

We also have the problem that forming is becoming less efficient. Arable yields are, as far as I can remember, falling in relation to the fertilisers that we use, so the energy balance is not in our favour. Likelwise, farmers rely on diesel and that’s only going to increase in cost, along with the farm machinery that will need servicing. I can’t think of a manufacturer that actually makes tractors in the UK, so they will get tariffed when imported.

I do wonder what could be done to make the UK self-sufficient in food. Maybe giving farmers a fair amount of money for their produce would be a good start, but that would hit people like Tesco hard and they would fight against that, or just pass it straight on to consumers.

The UK could easily become self sufficient in food

Prove it.

unfortunately their is not enough food in the uk alone to feed happy go lucky shoppers

But but …all the pesky incomers will be going back no?

We are not as self sustainable as we were before we joined the EU.

A far right version of chairman Mao’s cultural revolution, is not something to applaud and welcome.