EU Referendum – are you in or out?

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  • EU Referendum – are you in or out?
  • aP
    Member

    It is literally an MP’s job to do what his or her constituents want

    Actually it isn’t. We have a representative democracy, where we elect a MP to represent us. They choose how they do this. Its actually, like literally, the cornerstone of UK democracy. See Edmund Burke’s speech to the Electors of Bristol 3rd November 1774.
    http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch13s7.html

    Certainly, gentlemen, it ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own. But his unbiassed opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure; no, nor from the law and the constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.

    What i really hate is the fact that it wasn’t a clear cut vote, basically it was 52/48, so so a bloody close run thing on a referendum that was not actually legally binding.

    You then in the coming months have it come out of the woodwork, the efforts and funding of “Leave.eu” and Cambridge Analytica and there clear non-legal influencing of that vote, why hasn’t there been a Government sanctioned investigation of their influence and how that was allowed to happen?

    It seems to be 52% voted Leave in a non legally binding referendum heavily influenced by non-legal actions, but hey-ho lets crack on and destroy the country to save some face…

    Or do i read that wrong?

    You read it right. The only thing that isn’t an on-record fact, is the level to which the illegal funding and influencing affected the vote but it’s not unreasonable to put it at a t least 2% in my view.

    When you cut the through the fug of political squabbling, media hyperbole and the full on lies told to the public, that’s exactly where we are.

    Perhaps the saddest thing for me is that good proportion of leavers, when interviewed, basically just say, ‘meh, lets just get it over with’ The fact is was a bad decision from the start is neither here or there for them.

    AdamW
    Member

    Have we done Brian Bilston?

    HOLD MY HAND WHILE WE JUMP OFF THIS CLIFF
    ‘Let’s jump off this cliff – it’ll be fun! A right laugh!’
    urged all the people (well, I mean just over half
    of those who had bothered to speak up at all).
    I peered down at the rocks; it was a long way to fall.

    I said, ‘This cliff’s more than three hundred feet high
    and my doctor tells me if I jump I will die.’
    ‘Cliff-jumping’s fine!’ they said. ‘Don’t trust doctors, trust us!
    We read all about it on the side of a bus.’

    Worried, I met up with my local MP.
    I shared my concerns. He was forced to agree:
    ‘Why the rocks below would smash you to bits!
    Where did you get this idea of jumping off cliffs?’

    ‘It was the will of some of the people,’ I said
    and his expression changed to another instead.
    ‘I think,’ he revised, ‘you’re being melodramatic.
    The problem is you. You’re undemocratic.’

    On the clifftop, we waited. In silence we stood.
    Then a voice: ‘Remind me, why is cliff-jumping good?’
    But we looked down at our shoes, baffled and stumped.
    Then, out of embarrassment, we held hands and jumped.

    Premier Icon Dickyboy
    Subscriber

    meh, lets just get it over with’

    Very much this, my dad voted for brexit because he didn’t like the gravy train in Brussels, a couple I know voted for brexit in the belief it wouldn’t actually win, a plumber I know voted brexit to stem the Eastern European competition (that’s one I do understand his personal reasons at least) and the Co I work for invited ukip into the works to give a speach and don’t think they’ll be affected because they manufacture in UK & they hope brexit will stuff up their competition – not sure they’ve balanced that against economic downturn…. The least the government could do is give the electorate a second chance & to appease the leavers say that it has to be at least say 55% in favour of remaining otherwise we are still leaving?

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Actually it isn’t. We have a representative democracy, where we elect a MP to represent us. They choose how they do this. Its actually, like literally, the cornerstone of UK democracy.

    Where’s it written down?

    I was expressing one possible opinion. But the point is that the referendum forced them to vote for A50 even if they didn’t want to.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    You read it right. The only thing that isn’t an on-record fact, is the level to which the illegal funding and influencing affected the vote but it’s not unreasonable to put it at a t least 2% in my view.

    Sigh. This is a bit like a football team losing a match with a last minute controversial penalty decision against them. The fans howl afterwards about how unfair it is and how the referee is incompetent. Sometimes the referee even admits he made a mistake. But do they replay the match? No. They accept it and move on, because they recognise that however unfair it may be, and despite the fact the rules may not have been adhered to, a decision needs to be made in order to facililtate the continued operation of the league*.

    *this is a silly analogy I admit but it’s a fairly true picture of where we are.

    You’re implying there were proper ‘rules’ for the referendum;)

    To torture the football analogy further, any team breaking financial fair play are sanctioned and anyone in administration are relegated. Just playing an unregistered or banned player can result in a 3-0 forfeit. Shall I go on?

    Of course, football rules, whilst not perfect, have been refined over many years and challenged in the courts on occasion…

    Premier Icon fingerbang
    Subscriber

    Did anyone see this week’s Jon oliver (last week tonight)? The main feature was on brexit. Nothing new to add but really displayed the absurdity and tragedy of it all. An outsider’s perspective – absolutely INSANE, and they’ve got trump as a marker. Included footage of Boris J lookin pathetic, oafish and sweaty on his f’in bike

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    This is a bit like a football team losing a match

    No, it really isn’t. Aside from anything else, a football match ends whereas democracy is an ongoing process. It’s more like saying Manchester United won the cup last year so we shouldn’t have a cup final next year.

    Besides, as I said on the previous page or so, this “us and them” leave / remain won / lost mentality is ****ing toxic because ultimately we’re all on the same team. No one side is going to win or lose anything, we’re betting on the entire country not half of it and with a few rich exceptions we will all end up winning or losing.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Did anyone see this week’s Jon oliver (last week tonight)?

    Yeah. It served as a very good primer for a US audience who whilst might not necessarily be following UK politics religiously will probably have a better handle on it than the average American, just by dint of them being the sort of person who watches LWT in the first place. My overriding thought though was that it should be mandatory viewing over here as well.

    Premier Icon MSP
    Subscriber

    Sigh. This is a bit like a football team losing a match with a last minute controversial penalty decision against them. The fans howl afterwards about how unfair it is and how the referee is incompetent. Sometimes the referee even admits he made a mistake. But do they replay the match? No. They accept it and move on, because they recognise that however unfair it may be, and despite the fact the rules may not have been adhered to, a decision needs to be made in order to facililtate the continued operation of the league*.

    It would be more like losing a pre season friendly against a team of ringers, then afterwards being told it was actually the league decider.

    Premier Icon fingerbang
    Subscriber

    I say it had nothing new to add but I’d not seen the Dutch boyband pleading for the UK to stay before 🙂

    dannyh
    Member

    Sigh. This is a bit like a football team losing a match with a last minute controversial penalty decision against them.

    Bigger sigh. No it isn’t. Read Cougar’s post because it sums up ‘why’ very well.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    ION,

    I’ve just received an office-wide email inviting me to a work’s do, they’re going out for drinks.

    In Wetherspoons.

    On March 29th.

    Premier Icon BoardinBob
    Subscriber

    Was having a “discussion” with some brexiteers a couple of weeks ago.

    We got onto the topic of the need for immigrants. I pointed out that the UK is at almost full unemployment. I challenged the brexiteers that if we were to significantly reduce the number of immigrants, where would the people come from to fill the jobs?

    One of the responses was “it’ll be ok as brexit will cause a recession so companies will lay folk off anyway so therefore there will be less jobs going therefore we don’t need the immigrants”

    On one hand, he’s right.

    On the other hand, I’d like to use that hand to punch his stupid face into a bloody pulp

    Premier Icon llama
    Subscriber

    Did anyone see this week’s Jon oliver (last week tonight)?

    A colleague in Portugal mentioned to me about how funny the ‘brexit box’ part was. However he stopped laughing when I told him I was indeed stockpiling medicine and food. At least he stopped laughing eventually when he realized I was not joking.

    Premier Icon BoardinBob
    Subscriber

    Sigh. This is a bit like a football team losing a match with a last minute controversial penalty decision against them. The fans howl afterwards about how unfair it is and how the referee is incompetent. Sometimes the referee even admits he made a mistake. But do they replay the match? No. They accept it and move on

    You would think so, eh?

    https://www.dawn.com/news/94681

    Such was the furore surrounding the goal that Arsenal immediately offered to replay the tie and they won the second match 2-1.

    PrinceJohn
    Member

    ION,

    I’ve just received an office-wide email inviting me to a work’s do, they’re going out for drinks.

    In Wetherspoons.

    On March 29th.

    Do you work for Leave.EU?

    Premier Icon dissonance
    Subscriber

    *this is a silly analogy I admit but it’s a fairly true picture of where we are.

    if we are going for silly analogies why not use a cycling one.
    Spear wins the tour de france.
    Spear is then found to have been doping and so loses the title and is chased in the courts for other things.
    The major problem with the referendum is, if it had been binding, then there is a good chance it would have been ruled invalid due to the relaxed approach to campaigning by some.
    However since it isnt there is limited scope to intervene.
    So we are in the odd situation where it is being treated as binding despite the fact that if it was there would be lots of awkward legal questions to answer about its validity.

    Premier Icon nedrapier
    Subscriber

    I’ve just received an office-wide email inviting me to a work’s do, they’re going out for drinks.

    In Wetherspoons.

    On March 29th.

    Do you work for Leave.EU?

    Or are you going there to **** the place up?

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Do you work for Leave.EU?

    I questioned the email (with reference to needing a new Irony-o-meter). I got back,

    “No idea what you mean, I am not so in to what goes on with Brexit lol ;o)”

    Le sigh.

    On the back of a few things this past week.

    I’ve always been pretty left-wing and believed in supporting those less fortunate in society via taxation and redistribution of wealth. It always seemed to be the fairest thing to do.

    Since the vote I’ve heard people spout on about ‘taking back control’, ‘making Britain great again’, ‘Beating the Germans once and for all’, ‘getting rid of the Pakis’ and such bollocks.

    I’ve read on here, and elsewhere, how the working class in deprived areas want Brexit and don’t give a **** about people like me who want opportunities for our children above and beyond a minimum wage job or continuing to claim benefits; this has been confirmed by conversations with the dimmer end of my family who have, since the closure of the pits, sat on the dole moaning about how they deserve more of everything, and are fervent supporters of a no deal Brexit ‘cos Britain is great and we’ll win out against those nasty foreigners in the end.

    They really do believe that they are poor because loads of foreigners are coming over here being given shedloads of cash and free houses.

    They don’t care that Brexit will reduce opportunities for others as they have no aspirations for themselves or their kids so it doesn’t matter if they mess up other peoples lives.

    So if it all goes to shit then they deserve what is coming to them; we can easily absorb a 20% hike in living costs if necessary, lets hope they can.

    From now on I will be in it for me and mine.

    They can **** right off.

    Premier Icon MSP
    Subscriber

    I am currently being bombarded with schlager music, and for the first time feel myself coming over all brexity.

    dannyh
    Member

    I’m currently having a joust with a couple of dimwits on Facebook about all this. One has clearly bought the alt-right playbook. He claims to be anti every ‘ism’ and pro ‘getting rid of the whole lot and starting again according to what the people want’. His mate, on the other hand reposts Katie Hopkins articles.

    They’re getting quite angry now.

    Which is nice.

    mickmcd
    Member

    Will this thread die after march 29th?

    Or will a new one start

    Nope, this thread, like brexit will carry on ruining your lives for years to come😁

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Subscriber

    I don’t know if any of you followed proceedings in the Court of Appeal today on whether the referendum was held legally or was fraudulent.

    Well the outcome was that it wasn’t fraudulent because it was advisory. But, “Judges have confirmed categorically that had the vote been mandatory the referendum would have been quashed”.

    So there you have it. By declaring “it’s non-binding but we’ll honour the result”, there is no redress for illegal behaviour.

    mariner
    Member

    Will this thread die after march 29th?

    Or will a new one start

    The new thread will be ‘When should we join the EU’?

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    That makes sense in legal terms but none at all otherwise. What a bonkers country we live in.

    ferrals
    Member

    I don’t know if any of you followed proceedings in the Court of Appeal today on whether the referendum was held legally or was fraudulent.

    Well the outcome was that it wasn’t fraudulent because it was advisory. But, “Judges have confirmed categorically that had the vote been mandatory the referendum would have been quashed”.

    So there you have it. By declaring “it’s non-binding but we’ll honour the result”, there is no redress for illegal behaviour.

    Got a link to a news report.. my googling shows nothing and nothing obvious on the guardian.. I’d have thought they’dd have jumped at that

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    If you want to truly go through the looking glass then have a chat with the far left brexiteers

    Two of them drink in my local and I was stupidly talking to them about Brexit last Friday night. Both retired on good final salary pensions, both list Dennis Skinner as their political hero. Both love Corbyn and are labour through and through, they’re both educated and intelligent. Decent blokes usually. Both are rabidly anti-EU! Brexit at any cost! (They’re hardly likely to be the ones paying the cost, obviously)

    Anyway, after much debate with me finding it increasingly incomprehensible that they could support what is clearly such a right wing project, one of the stated, and I’ll quote him directly:

    “We need to get our sovereignty back! The EU is just a German dictatorship! It’s basically them just completing the work of the third reich”

    I mean…. where do you even start with that?

    I didn’t even bother. Just shook my head in complete bewilderment and went to rejoin the real world

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Subscriber

    Got a link to a news report.. my googling shows nothing and nothing obvious on the guardian.. I’d have thought they’dd have jumped at that

    Tweets from Liz Webster https://twitter.com/abcpoppins

    spekkie
    Member

    It was mentioned the other day, and I’d been wondering myself, did the pro-Brexit STW’ers stop posting on this thread because they realized they had no valid defense, or did they give up posting in the face of not being able to convince anyone of their beliefs?

    Premier Icon AD
    Subscriber

    Liam’s been busy…

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47319533

    Actually he hasn’t. Oh well, never mind.

    Hopefully some Brexiteers will be along in a minute to tell us again how this is a GOOD thing.

    bigrich
    Member

    Sigh. This is a bit like a football team losing a match with a last minute controversial penalty decision against them. The fans howl afterwards about how unfair it is and how the referee is incompetent.

    a football match is a hobby, not an economy that relies on trade networks to feed and provide for 67 million people.

    so no, not really.

    mefty
    Member

    That makes sense in legal terms but none at all otherwise. What a bonkers country we live in.

    It misrepresents the decision the Court threw it out because Parliament voted a bill through to trigger Article 50 and that supersedes other considerations. For the referendum to be non-advisory then it needs to automatically bring into effect an act of parliament that is already on the statute book.

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Subscriber

    Blimey, what a tangled web we weave.

    +1 dangerousbeans. I will never vote Labour or Tory again, simply for the party that offers the lowest tax and the easiest time for me and my non-British wife.

    I couldn’t give two **** about the working classes anymore.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    But, but, but DFDS Fox Told us he’d have 40 lined up by Brexit day!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47319533

    AS much as the Labour implosion is a car crash, how long will it take for the Tories to recover their reputation as the ‘party of business’ (tbf Fox always was a ridiculous choice for the job)

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    So if it all goes to shit then they deserve what is coming to them; we can easily absorb a 20% hike in living costs if necessary, lets hope they can.

    And this is exactly why they voted for brexit. You see they don’t give a shit about your life or the patronising sympathy you may have had for them, or the taxes you think you generously pay. You think they don’t want opportunities for their kids like you do? The difference is that people like yourself who can afford a 20% drop in wealth as you proudly proclaim are in a position to give their kids a leg up. Because the taxes you and everyone above you pay are not enough to provide decent opportunities and services for people who don’t have the luxury of savings or disposable income to pay for the things you take for granted. So yes, they’ll vote for a change, any change. They’ll grasp at any straw that is offered them. And yes, sadly, they’ll also be taken in by snake oil salesmen telling them that it’s the fault of foreigners or whoever else is an easy scapegoat, because they’re too busy trying to pay the bills and feed their kids to figure out who’s really at fault.

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