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go and watch an ironman and see what average people put their bodies through.
Oh Jesus wept, please don't bring age group triathlon into this. 👿
Totally bonkers interview with Horner after the stage.
http://t.co/94ewOL0m0c
It's a great spectacle. And so is WWE wrestling and NFL. Great efforts and performances, not "fake", people in pain, at their limts. But it's a show. That's all.
Until the UCI clean the house and move from damage-control to really making clean riding a crusade it is very difficult to take it seriously...
Anyone who really believes all riders are now clean after what we have seen in the last 20 years is as hopeful as a husband dropping his avowedly faithful wife off to work at a whorehouse.
It will take years of clean racing to get me to watch it again. This isn't about emotional investment or baggage. I have believed LA was doping for many many years, and still watched the TdF. I just think that 100m sprinters should genuinely be the fastest, and Tour winners should genuinely be the best all round athletes in the race, not the people with the best drugs.
he was winning me over a bit until he started talking into the camera...
:psycho:
I really would like to believe and I am not one of they all cheat so the winner must cheat however I do agree with aracer
40+ ex high level athlete here, who's found just how much harder it gets when you're over 40. Maybe those who aren't suspicious are either not old enough to know, or have never competed at a high enough level?
Being the same age as Horner I am well aware theat the 40 + me is not as strong, fast or able to recover as the 25 + me. IMHO no one can be fitter at 40 than at a younger age. You just bdont get better in middle age. It is a remarkable achievement to go from MLEH to winner.
I would be lying if I said I did not find this remarkable to the point of raising my suspicions.
Being the same age as Horner I am well aware theat the 40 + me is not as strong, fast or able to recover as the 25 + me
All due respect, you're not comparing apples and apples. Indurain is almost 50 and and cycling only recreationally, yet is still putting out power which would be the envy of some 25yo elites (if you adjust it for the weight he's gained since retiring). Athletes in general are getting older, and stage races are one area where older riders can do well.
Indurain is almost 50 and and cycling only recreationally, yet is still putting out power which would be the envy of some 25yo elites
That's probably true, BUT he isn't putting out more power than HE was in his 20s
I think the deterioration with age is a fairly easily demonstrably and universally true physiological phenomena.
Of course their peak is nothing like my peak but that is irrelevant. Their 40 years old peak and powers of recovery is less than their 25 + one just like mine and everyone else.
Why is there so few older pros then if they can do stage races?
Why is there so few older pros then if they can do stage races?
Not sure about this season, but in 2012 there were a bunch of riders older than 38 (admittedly a lot of those riders disappeared after Lancegate!). Notwithstanding, what's the average athlete age in the pro peloton compared to something like the Premiership?
its because getting older makes you slower/weaker/less fit
Whatever your start point this is the inevitable consequence of ageing.
How many of them win mountain stages and Grand Tours etc?
You think Jens is better now or then?
Don't know about Jens, but Horner is better now than when he was 25
😆
1996
1st, Lancaster Classic
1st, Stage 1, Tour DuPont
2nd, Overall, Redlands Bicycle Classic
3rd, Overall, Fitchburg Longsjo Classic
3rd, National Road Race Championships2013
Vuelta a España
1st Stages 3 & 10
Jersey red.svg Held after Stages 3, 10 & 19–20
Jersey blue dotted.png Held after Stages 10–13
Jersey white.svg Held after Stages 10 & 14–20
2nd, Overall, Tour of Utah
1st, Stage 5
6th, Overall, Tirreno–Adriatico
Not bad for a 'rest' year!
Seriously, better how? If stage racing were just about watts/kg, then he was better when he was 25.
If being old makes one soooo bad then doping won't make you better than young riders, at best it will just make you similar to the "young " you?
Bristol Pablo, you do know the only time Horner rode with LA was during his comeback, with Astana, right?
Also agree the talking to camera was toe curling.
While I was googling, I found something that surprised me, at least. The oldest team of the 2012 tour (Lampre, at 29.4yo avg) was younger than the oldest Premiership team (Fulham, at 31.5yo avg) 😯
Youngest was Liquigas 26.5, vs Aston Villa 22.9.
I'm as sceptical as the next person (it's hard not to be given the history of the sport - and a man possibly riding his last race, unlikely to be affected by a ban...), but who's to say that Horner reached his full potential in his younger days? Maybe he's just working harder than he ever has?
Yesterday's stage was brutal though and I enjoyed every minute of it. Hats off to Nibali who refused to give up (I almost felt sorry for him in the end - more so if it turned out Horner was doping...)
I do find it interesting that he's "had" to miss most of the season due to being "injured" and so is "well rested". I wonder how often he's been tested...
Same number of times as everyone else
Letter to Chris Horner:
Dear Chris
It is our opinion that you are allowed to take part in the Vuelta 2013.
However, you ARE NOT ALLOWED TO WIN IT.
The reasons are as follows:
a) You have not won anything of importance in your cycling career .
b) You are too old.
Kind regards
The STW Massive
Letter to Chris Horner:Dear Chris
Strawman
Sputnik
FTFY
Maybe he's just working harder than he ever has?
Massively so given his results
I hope he is clean, i dont know for sure but it s a remarkable set of results for someone with his record and at his age.
It raises suspicions but that is not conclusive.
I'd love his performance to be PED free, but I dont think there is a chance.
His support of Lance and his admiration of other druggies is quite disturbing.
Its almost guaranteed he took PED's in the past, yet now when he is so much older, he's putting out his best ever performance supposedly clean!
He has already said Lance never tested positive and tests are pretty pointless, and at his age with no contract for next year, he had absolutely nothing to loose because he thinks he'll never get caught.
[url= http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=da&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fveloropa.dk%2Fnew-standards%2F&act=url ]This gives a bit of incite into the year he has had![/url]
Straw man, not strawman.
FTFY 😉
Comparing results is meaningless.
In 1996 he would have been up against much more effective doping (I don't think people are clean now but at least the testing makes doping more awkward)
I had my ar*e handed to me by an Elite 40+ guy every other week in a race series this summer. We average 27+ mph in our races and you need to be old to be in. The 50+ guys are just as fast and race alongside.
It's not an age thing, it's a race miles thing. Horner came to the Vuelta fresh. And a genuine LOL at Astana and Katie Price 😆
I'm bouncing between
1) He was never part of the Riis/US Postal/LA machine doing his own thing on the continent, started winning later in his career, this is his first tilt at being a GT captain, and thanks to an early injury has had all season to prepare when his rivals have exhausted themselves in other GTs and races, or
2) He’s 15 years older than his competition and has never been this good, he rode with LA on his comeback with Astana (Russian for Dirty), he raced through the dirty LA era, no one stands for an entire 15km HC climb, and he’s had all season to “prepare” for this race.
3) Having too-wide bars is going to all be the rage next year
yeah, as I was typing that I was racking my brains as to when he was at Astana! I think there is a line between the past and the present though, there are those riding now who were part of the bad old days but whom I would almost be certain are now riding clean. It is possible to do something illegal and rehabilitate....
The hand-wringers just annoy me though, either watch it and take it at face value or dont watch it. Just dont watch it then start the whole "i want to believe they are clean but i cant" whine. You dont find F1 forums littered with this nonsense at the end of every race "i want to believe that red bull arent using special secret fuel additives but i cant" etc etc....
Sounds like sour grapes from all you young punks, 40+ kicks ass and you don't like it!
looks like you cannot read a thread
Sputnik its a FT job correcting my typos 😉
Must be old age ... 😆
FFS stop saying he's old! He's 2 days younger than me!
sorry what were we talking about?
Mutters about disrespectful yoof and recalls the good old days
I am 42 FWIW
In all fairness i'm a lot fitter at 46 than i was at 26 - but that has more to do with my dissolute, alcohol & drug addled youth than any genetic miracle! 😆
I think that this years Vuelta has been the best stage race that I've followed. I thought Horner was great on and off the bike. Glad I had avoided STW threads on it as it would have spoiled my enjoyment.
My question for the sceptics is that if he is a veteran dopper then why is now so much better now?
I think that the less knackered theory works for me. Was he the only top contender not to have ridden the Tour or giro?
To be honest there are things in this thread that make me less sceptical. I didn't know he'd done so well in grand tours in the past.
He could of course be doping. But I really wouldn't bother watching a grand tour if I was just going to use the GC to indicate a list of potential cheats
Any way I've done some inconclusive googling as I'd never heard of him before this year
correct me if I'm wrong his 9th in the Tour was riding domestique to Armstrong? Looks like they published his power data
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/07/power-from-tourmalet-6wkg-anyone.html
Power from this years Vuelta
http://journalvelo.com/opinion/chris-horners-power-files-revealed-is-he-or-isnt-he-suspicious/
Looks like Chris has been the bench mark for power out put publishing. Was this based on his numbers as well
has Chris always published more power data than anyone else?
As I always state on these doping threads, history has shown us that passing a dope test isn't that indicative of being dope free! Lance passed hundreds of tests...Millar never tested positive etc.
Whilst Horner has raced less than the others so could be 'fresher' he's also had plenty of time to train whilst doped to the gills, with minimal risk of testing positive.
As for J-Rod racing 70k kms this year...give over! Including training the pros with the highest number of kms in a calendar year will be under 30 kms. The Tour is the longest single race at 3.5k km..where on Earth would he fit the rest in?!
Laurens ten Dam has done about 20k of riding in total this year so I guess with two grand tours (or three in the case of Adam Hansen) you'd be looking at 20-25k probably 30k or so by the end of the year.
Looking at the race though, it was a bit weak in terms of the best competition. Nibali was off form in the mountains, Valverde isn't the rider he was "before", Purito had some good days and some really average days and then you have Nicolas Roche which is no reflection on him as he's young but you'd not expect a top-5 in a Grand Tour normally for him. With Pozzovivo, Konig and Pinot also in the top 10 I think it's clear it wasn't the most stacked field particularly after Sky were a non-entity.
That said, I've had a question mark over Horner for his comments about Lance and Johan but until it's proven otherwise I'll keep an open mind as to his results. That said, as some others have said I'm not emotionally invested in riders being clean. I think some fans and journos are over compensating because they were taken in by Lance but even if Horner was found to have doped, it wouldn't change things too much although it would be sad. I'm quite comfortable knowing that for Horner, following that speech, one of the worst things would be to tell his kid he'd doped and had been found out. I'm sure having your kids look at you, knowing exactly the sort of person you are, must hurt more than the ban.
Not seen anything in the English speaking press yet, but this appeard on my Twitter feed this morning:
[url= http://t.co/B7w6CL6t6F ]Chris Horner desaparece e falha controlo antidoping[/url]
Google Translation:
Chris Horner, winner of the Vuelta, failed this Monday a surprise doping control. According to the newspaper "The", the Spanish Anti-Doping Agency (AEA) was the hotel room where the U.S. should have slept in Madrid after the consecration, but found only one teammate, who confessed not to know where Horner . The EEA also sought in another hotel where the rider could be but did not succeed in "search".The Spanish control of the entity was made at the request of USADA (U.S. Agency for doping), which has been monitoring Horner during the recent times, in order to measure levels of hematocrit (percentage of red blood cells). During the Vuelta, all controls were the sole responsibility of the UCI and the results are not yet known.
By not find where this was supposed to be Monday, Chris Horner may have violated seriously the law requiring all cyclists to reveal where they are.
Doesn't sound good if it's true.
It was a cracking tour and it's always great to see the underdog win. The last thing we need is another dope scandal 🙁
Well given the "rigorous" approach the Spanish anti-doping agency have, I'd be surprised if they even went to the right hotels or notified the rider of their interest. I'd bet after winning a grand tour you may be out partying. That's not to say, of course, that it's impossible he was evading the authorities.
The last thing we need is another dope scandal
It's the first thing we need.
[url= http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-horner-misses-post-vuelta-anti-doping-test ]cycling news[/url]
It's great that they did the surprise test but IMO it doesn't really say anything. If he is cheating then he'll have been tested every day anyway so what's a test carried out the day after going to show unless he was juicing up to cope with the post-win interviews/PR merrygoround... Surprise tests on the rest days or other times when we know people cheat would be the best chance of catching them, unless they know something we don't...
For me, the a large proportion of the peloton with a very few exceptions have to live with this situation of suspicion as they were part of it passive or not. Now, I'm not going to say I'd have been any different but a lot of riders, even if they didn't cheat, knew what was going on and generally did nothing about it. We all saw what happened to Bassons and the like so I can see why they did keep quiet but they're still reaping what they sowed and that's especially true for the older riders - like Horner.
I sincerely hope that the reason for Horner's win is that he's riding clean (and did all along...) and that the cheats are now struggling to cope with the new world where you perform well by training better rather than hitting a higher percentage but it's really stretching credibility. Horner always looked like someone with potential but never quite made the big step. Was that because he was clean and unable to compete or just because he wasn't ever quite good enough and is now doping just enough to avoid being caught but to still provide a decent boost?
Who knows...
It's the first thing we need.
Explain. It's only something we "need" if someone is doping. It's not that we should WANT this sort of thing
Well given the "rigorous" approach the Spanish anti-doping agency have, I'd be surprised if they even went to the right hotels or notified the rider of their interest. I'd bet after winning a grand tour you may be out partying. That's not to say, of course, that it's impossible he was evading the authorities.
The Spanish have tightened up the law recently, and the cynic in me reckons a foreign rider wouldn't be treated as gently as a Spanish one.
mogrim - my thoughts too. I have doubts if Purito had won and missed a test the press would have been tipped off. In the same way, it's amazing none of their journos are that interested in the other Fuentes clients.
I believe that the Spanish press think that the farce over Fuentes cost them dearly in the recent Olympic bid. There may be a change of attitude there, as also recently seen in the Giro with Italian riders being caught.
Is Britain now not one of the last Major European countries where doping is not a criminal offence and still left to the governing bodies?
I find it quite ironic that some posters who eagerly dismissed suspicions levelled against Wiggins and Froome as ridiculous speculation, have been quite happy to cast the same dispersions against Horner.
The Italians have been strict on doping for some time. I'm honestly not sure it needs to be a criminal offence as removing the livelihood of the doper seems like a big enough punishment (unless they're doping with illegal substances). Arguably they'd be open to civil suits or even criminal charges for fraud if they did a Lance so not sure it needs strengthening further.
MSP - I still think the Spanish press should do a Walsh and dig up the rest of the Fuentes dirt so the cloud is at least cleared a bit. Right now pretty much every Spanish sporting success is under question.
To be honest, if he HAD been in the hotel first thing this morning the day after winning a Grand Tour, I'd feel a litle bit let down.
MSP - Wiggins and Froome aren't over 40, and have had a fairly normal career progression (granted Froome's raises some suspicions). Oh, and everybody was expecting them to win when they did.
Radioshack announcement that he was in his wife's hotel and this was declared on the whereabouts form. So, just a cock up by the Spanish anti-doping folk?
Well it'll be pretty clear - if it was on the ADAMS system as they claim (and within whatever time period they're allowed to change it) then it just shows that Spanish AD are incompetent.
I believe that the Spanish press think that the farce over Fuentes cost them dearly in the recent Olympic bid.
MSP - I still think the Spanish press should do a Walsh and dig up the rest of the Fuentes dirt so the cloud is at least cleared a bit. Right now pretty much every Spanish sporting success is under question.
The press is talking about it, and they certainly mention that it wasn't just cyclists that were clients of Fuentes. Legally I'm not sure where they stand, though - the decision not to publish the names and destroy the samples was taken by a judge, not a sporting federation, and any investigation could run into serious legal problems. (Whether or not the judge was put under pressure or bribed to reach this conclusion is a different matter... I'd be very unsurprised to hear about the former, the latter is bit less likely.)
These are quotes from Horner about his mate Lance ~
“Look, I’m certainly old enough and wise enough to understand the magnitude of the situation, but in the end he’s still getting prosecuted with no positive test. A lot of guys say they saw him and a lot say he did this and he did that, but I look at it and say: ‘USADA, WADA, UCI, they’re saying that the tests are worthless.’ So do you take all the tests, 500, 1000, I don’t know the number I’ve done in my own career and you basically say, that you took them for no reason?“
"Maybe USADA have found the guys who have cheated but.... for me, you won the race (if) you passed the test. Lance won seven Tours de France and that's what I saw and the moments I enjoyed and that the way it's going to stay."
From that, he is basically saying, if you can cheat and nobody can catch you, then that is fine. Pretty much how LA got his wins.
[url= http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=da&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fveloropa.dk%2Fnew-standards%2F&act=url ]And, if you missed it. The fact that Horner was injured and looking like his career could be over for most of the year![/url]
Nibali won the Vuelta in my eyes...
Until they take it away from him, Horner won the Vuelta. Impressive riding - I really hope he is clean.
As for missing the test - if he has notified his whereabouts and the testing team have gone to the wrong hotel then so be it. They can always test him today?
lightman - That's what we've all said. His comments about Lance are bullshit and he was stupid to make them. As for his knee injury, what does that prove? He had surgery, doubted before and just after the surgery if at his age he could recover but recovered. If he's found to have doped then fair enough, Nibali won, but as a two time stage winner, wearer of the red jersey for 5 days, the white jersey for another 5 days and the winner of the race, he will have had a LOT of tests. So lets see how it pans out eh?
Bring back no tests, would be a superb smashfest!
It'd be rubbish. The EPO free-for-all era just entrenched the best time triallers in the top positions. Armstrong, fortunately, had an aggressive attacking instinct, but a certain Spanish multiple-time-winner of Le Tour showed just what doping enabled. Boredom.
as a two time stage winner, wearer of the red jersey for 5 days, the white jersey for another 5 days and the winner of the race, he will have had a LOT of tests
Just like Lance, Marion Jones etc.
he will have had a LOT of tests
Which means nothing if a rider is EPO'd to the gills before the race and nobody catches it.
EPO tests are far more accurate these days, Di Luca and Santambrogio were both busted for EPO at the Giro (but the latter is getting away with it).
aracer / ormondroyd - So how do you propose to find a doper? Maybe if someone is trending on Google or Twitter with a hashtag of #doper we ban them?
[url= http://www.radioshackleopardtrek.com/news/anti-doping-testers-wrong ]http://www.radioshackleopardtrek.com/news/anti-doping-testers-wrong[/url]
So...if Horner does test positive will the Fantasy leagues recalculate everything?
aracer / ormondroyd - So how do you propose to find a doper? Maybe if someone is trending on Google or Twitter with a hashtag of #doper we ban them?
There are many things that can be done to improve things from where they are now. e.g.:
Decouple testing from bodies with a conflict of interest.
Fund the bio passport programme properly, on a global basis, across multiple sports.
...to name but two.
Tests are fairly pointless it seems when all the experts around here have made up their minds.
We all know that tests aren't 100% though. Regardless, testing is good as they still require an element of luck now it seems to consistently avoid them, not to mention that it limits how much benefit the cheats can get from doping which wouldn't be the case if there wasn't any...
Testing is pointless if it's not properly done.
This tweet was only yesterday:
Helen Wyman ?@CXHelen 22hTry that again! After nearly 30 races finally had a dope control test on american soil, glad to see USA anti doping doing a good job
his interview with Matt Rendell (just seen it on repeat of ITV4 highlights today) depressed me, and Ive been sitting on the fence. MR asked him a pretty direct question finishing with "is this win clean?", CH said something about having never said he'd never seen doping, then spent the rest of the answer waffling about how gee he really loves the sport and he hopes the fans do too. Way too evasive, and echoes of the "believe in miracles" speech of LA. 🙄
He's previously insisted he never saw any doping in his time on Bruyneel teams.
*scratches chin*
The interesting thing is what he's been up to, given the supposedly improved testing programme.
Is it still possible to fool the bio passport with some sort of specialised preparation over the season, is Spain still some sort of doping haven where the testing is unreliable, or is this some new technique?
Try googling 'microdosing EPO'.
They can still dope if they do it carefully but it seems based on the people getting caught that you have to be lucky too to avoid being caught. The benefits available aren't anything like they used to be when EPO use was completely uncontrolled.
Just watched the IVT4 interview.
I didn't think he came across as that bad - certainly not as bad as the post-stage interview I posted the other day.
He mentions being in the grupetto during the bad years for example.
Are there any genetic performance enhancing things on the go yet? If so, are there tests for them?
That would be an interesting angle to it all.
You could argue Nicholas Roche has used the genetic advantage thing all his career. 🙂
Had a little chuckle to myself at the comment on the Leopard Trek page -
Fred Homburg
i can only hope that the press and all cycle fans arround the world wil remember that his vivtory in spain was the best thing that i have seen in years.
D'you know, in all the frenzy, I rather fear the press may have overlooked how much Mr Homburg enjoyed the race - I certainly haven't seen it reported as widely as it should have been. 🙂
Doubtful he'll get caught from a test done during the Vuelta (unless he's been incredibly stupid) but if he's been micro-dosing/doping hopefully the passport will pick something up.
It's just not credible what he did given his past form and the analysis of some of the climbs, he's not just been quicker than the best of the peloton in this year's race, he's been significantly better than some of the best riders going off previous year's times. The whole well-rested thing is bullshit to, it's not like Nibali was at the TdF and you need a certain amount of racing miles in your legs before a Grand Tour, even Sky (the masters of training over racing) do plenty of races before a Grand Tour.
Why do we have cycle races? It's because they entertain the public, like all other sports... some sports charge entry to fund them, cycling depends on sponsors, the public watch, see the 'advertising' and that funds the sport, but we as the public are there to be entertained and that's precisely what this Vuelta did, the best GT in many years as far as entertainment went. So, why not accept it as it was, it's irrelevant who did or didn't dope as we were entertained. Too many people can't accept that or be satisfied with that, instead everyone and his dog have to become detectives and waste their lives delving into whether a, b or c doped. It doesn't affect YOUR lives at all! It's like after-match analysis in football, it's irrelevant as the game has ended! Look forward to the next and enjoy life!
that's precisely what this Vuelta did
There clearly are some/many who think this way. I don't. I just can't get excited/entertained if I'm watching something that may well not be what it appears to be or should be (IMO...).
So the legacy of cheating, for me at least, is that something I used to love just isn't something I can get excited about in the same way at the moment.
That pisses me off.
It doesn't affect YOUR lives at all
Your post makes no sense to me. How can something existing to entertain us have no affect on us?
To be honest, I could easily do a Junkyard and quote every part of your post in little pieces explaining why the do not don't make sense. But I can't be arsed so I'll just stick with the one bit.
Why do we have cycle races? It's because they entertain the public, like all other sports.
so its not to find out who is the best at that sport 😕
That contest may be entertaining or it may be dull See wiggo grind out a tour or LA doing the look
I think there may be something more to the contest that me being entertained
*runs away and hides from Junkyard
It doesn't affect YOUR lives at all
Neither does us discussing it. Why does it matter to you?
his interview with Matt Rendell (just seen it on repeat of ITV4 highlights today) depressed me, and Ive been sitting on the fence. MR asked him a pretty direct question finishing with "is this win clean?", CH said something about having never said he'd never seen doping, then spent the rest of the answer waffling about how gee he really loves the sport and he hopes the fans do too. Way too evasive, and echoes of the "believe in miracles" speech of LA.
Just what I thought. Very mealy mouthed.
Of course it's not proof, but I'll trust my instincts on whether he was telling the truth or not.
Contrast with how clear and even eloquent Froome was on the subject.
And I feel the same chakaping but at the same time, I'm sure that Chris Froome was well coached and they had considered in some detail what would sound best and how to phrase things. I'm not suggesting that it's not true, just that the risk is that we get into a situation (that in some ways I think we're already in) where there becomes a stock set of answers to doping where you have to be energetically anti-doping to be credible.
All that happens is everyone learns the same script.
It's because they entertain the public, like all other sports
Like WWF?
there becomes a stock set of answers to doping where you have to be energetically anti-doping to be credible.
I've wondered why this hasn't become the case to a greater extent already tbh.
But the same instinct that made me think Horner had something to hide also made me think Froome was speaking from personal conviction.