Chris Horner on la Vuelta

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  • Chris Horner on la Vuelta
  • Don’t know about Jens, but Horner is better now than when he was 25
    😆

    1996
    1st, Lancaster Classic
    1st, Stage 1, Tour DuPont
    2nd, Overall, Redlands Bicycle Classic
    3rd, Overall, Fitchburg Longsjo Classic
    3rd, National Road Race Championships

    2013
    Vuelta a España
    1st Stages 3 & 10
    Jersey red.svg Held after Stages 3, 10 & 19–20
    Jersey blue dotted.png Held after Stages 10–13
    Jersey white.svg Held after Stages 10 & 14–20
    2nd, Overall, Tour of Utah
    1st, Stage 5
    6th, Overall, Tirreno–Adriatico

    Not bad for a ‘rest’ year!
    Seriously, better how? If stage racing were just about watts/kg, then he was better when he was 25.

    sputnik
    Member

    If being old makes one soooo bad then doping won’t make you better than young riders, at best it will just make you similar to the “young ” you?

    Bristol Pablo, you do know the only time Horner rode with LA was during his comeback, with Astana, right?

    Also agree the talking to camera was toe curling.

    While I was googling, I found something that surprised me, at least. The oldest team of the 2012 tour (Lampre, at 29.4yo avg) was younger than the oldest Premiership team (Fulham, at 31.5yo avg) 😯

    Youngest was Liquigas 26.5, vs Aston Villa 22.9.

    butcher
    Member

    I’m as sceptical as the next person (it’s hard not to be given the history of the sport – and a man possibly riding his last race, unlikely to be affected by a ban…), but who’s to say that Horner reached his full potential in his younger days? Maybe he’s just working harder than he ever has?

    Yesterday’s stage was brutal though and I enjoyed every minute of it. Hats off to Nibali who refused to give up (I almost felt sorry for him in the end – more so if it turned out Horner was doping…)

    Premier Icon spxxky
    Subscriber

    I do find it interesting that he’s “had” to miss most of the season due to being “injured” and so is “well rested”. I wonder how often he’s been tested…

    Same number of times as everyone else

    sputnik
    Member

    Letter to Chris Horner:

    Dear Chris

    It is our opinion that you are allowed to take part in the Vuelta 2013.
    However, you ARE NOT ALLOWED TO WIN IT.

    The reasons are as follows:

    a) You have not won anything of importance in your cycling career .
    b) You are too old.

    Kind regards

    The STW Massive

    Junkyard
    Member

    Letter to Chris Horner:

    Dear Chris

    Strawman

    Sputnik
    FTFY

    Maybe he’s just working harder than he ever has?

    Massively so given his results
    I hope he is clean, i dont know for sure but it s a remarkable set of results for someone with his record and at his age.
    It raises suspicions but that is not conclusive.

    lightman
    Member

    I’d love his performance to be PED free, but I dont think there is a chance.
    His support of Lance and his admiration of other druggies is quite disturbing.
    Its almost guaranteed he took PED’s in the past, yet now when he is so much older, he’s putting out his best ever performance supposedly clean!
    He has already said Lance never tested positive and tests are pretty pointless, and at his age with no contract for next year, he had absolutely nothing to loose because he thinks he’ll never get caught.
    This gives a bit of incite into the year he has had!

    sputnik
    Member

    Straw man, not strawman.
    FTFY 😉

    Premier Icon ac282
    Subscriber

    Comparing results is meaningless.

    In 1996 he would have been up against much more effective doping (I don’t think people are clean now but at least the testing makes doping more awkward)

    TiRed
    Member

    I had my ar*e handed to me by an Elite 40+ guy every other week in a race series this summer. We average 27+ mph in our races and you need to be old to be in. The 50+ guys are just as fast and race alongside.

    It’s not an age thing, it’s a race miles thing. Horner came to the Vuelta fresh. And a genuine LOL at Astana and Katie Price 😆

    I’m bouncing between

    1) He was never part of the Riis/US Postal/LA machine doing his own thing on the continent, started winning later in his career, this is his first tilt at being a GT captain, and thanks to an early injury has had all season to prepare when his rivals have exhausted themselves in other GTs and races, or
    2) He’s 15 years older than his competition and has never been this good, he rode with LA on his comeback with Astana (Russian for Dirty), he raced through the dirty LA era, no one stands for an entire 15km HC climb, and he’s had all season to “prepare” for this race.
    3) Having too-wide bars is going to all be the rage next year

    yeah, as I was typing that I was racking my brains as to when he was at Astana! I think there is a line between the past and the present though, there are those riding now who were part of the bad old days but whom I would almost be certain are now riding clean. It is possible to do something illegal and rehabilitate….

    The hand-wringers just annoy me though, either watch it and take it at face value or dont watch it. Just dont watch it then start the whole “i want to believe they are clean but i cant” whine. You dont find F1 forums littered with this nonsense at the end of every race “i want to believe that red bull arent using special secret fuel additives but i cant” etc etc….

    IanW
    Member

    Sounds like sour grapes from all you young punks, 40+ kicks ass and you don’t like it!

    Junkyard
    Member

    looks like you cannot read a thread

    Sputnik its a FT job correcting my typos 😉

    sputnik
    Member

    Must be old age … 😆

    mogrim
    Member

    FFS stop saying he’s old! He’s 2 days younger than me!

    Junkyard
    Member

    sorry what were we talking about?
    Mutters about disrespectful yoof and recalls the good old days

    I am 42 FWIW

    Premier Icon muddydwarf
    Subscriber

    In all fairness i’m a lot fitter at 46 than i was at 26 – but that has more to do with my dissolute, alcohol & drug addled youth than any genetic miracle! 😆

    Premier Icon ampthill
    Subscriber

    I think that this years Vuelta has been the best stage race that I’ve followed. I thought Horner was great on and off the bike. Glad I had avoided STW threads on it as it would have spoiled my enjoyment.

    My question for the sceptics is that if he is a veteran dopper then why is now so much better now?

    I think that the less knackered theory works for me. Was he the only top contender not to have ridden the Tour or giro?

    To be honest there are things in this thread that make me less sceptical. I didn’t know he’d done so well in grand tours in the past.

    He could of course be doping. But I really wouldn’t bother watching a grand tour if I was just going to use the GC to indicate a list of potential cheats

    Any way I’ve done some inconclusive googling as I’d never heard of him before this year

    correct me if I’m wrong his 9th in the Tour was riding domestique to Armstrong? Looks like they published his power data

    http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/07/power-from-tourmalet-6wkg-anyone.html

    Power from this years Vuelta

    http://journalvelo.com/opinion/chris-horners-power-files-revealed-is-he-or-isnt-he-suspicious/

    Looks like Chris has been the bench mark for power out put publishing. Was this based on his numbers as well

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/06/news/new-report-presents-data-driven-doubts-on-performances-past-and-present_290708

    has Chris always published more power data than anyone else?

    Tom B
    Member

    As I always state on these doping threads, history has shown us that passing a dope test isn’t that indicative of being dope free! Lance passed hundreds of tests…Millar never tested positive etc.

    Whilst Horner has raced less than the others so could be ‘fresher’ he’s also had plenty of time to train whilst doped to the gills, with minimal risk of testing positive.

    As for J-Rod racing 70k kms this year…give over! Including training the pros with the highest number of kms in a calendar year will be under 30 kms. The Tour is the longest single race at 3.5k km..where on Earth would he fit the rest in?!

    atlaz
    Member

    Laurens ten Dam has done about 20k of riding in total this year so I guess with two grand tours (or three in the case of Adam Hansen) you’d be looking at 20-25k probably 30k or so by the end of the year.

    Looking at the race though, it was a bit weak in terms of the best competition. Nibali was off form in the mountains, Valverde isn’t the rider he was “before”, Purito had some good days and some really average days and then you have Nicolas Roche which is no reflection on him as he’s young but you’d not expect a top-5 in a Grand Tour normally for him. With Pozzovivo, Konig and Pinot also in the top 10 I think it’s clear it wasn’t the most stacked field particularly after Sky were a non-entity.

    That said, I’ve had a question mark over Horner for his comments about Lance and Johan but until it’s proven otherwise I’ll keep an open mind as to his results. That said, as some others have said I’m not emotionally invested in riders being clean. I think some fans and journos are over compensating because they were taken in by Lance but even if Horner was found to have doped, it wouldn’t change things too much although it would be sad. I’m quite comfortable knowing that for Horner, following that speech, one of the worst things would be to tell his kid he’d doped and had been found out. I’m sure having your kids look at you, knowing exactly the sort of person you are, must hurt more than the ban.

    whatnobeer
    Member

    Not seen anything in the English speaking press yet, but this appeard on my Twitter feed this morning:

    Chris Horner desaparece e falha controlo antidoping

    Google Translation:

    Chris Horner, winner of the Vuelta, failed this Monday a surprise doping control. According to the newspaper “The”, the Spanish Anti-Doping Agency (AEA) was the hotel room where the U.S. should have slept in Madrid after the consecration, but found only one teammate, who confessed not to know where Horner . The EEA also sought in another hotel where the rider could be but did not succeed in “search”.

    The Spanish control of the entity was made at the request of USADA (U.S. Agency for doping), which has been monitoring Horner during the recent times, in order to measure levels of hematocrit (percentage of red blood cells). During the Vuelta, all controls were the sole responsibility of the UCI and the results are not yet known.

    By not find where this was supposed to be Monday, Chris Horner may have violated seriously the law requiring all cyclists to reveal where they are.

    Doesn’t sound good if it’s true.

    It was a cracking tour and it’s always great to see the underdog win. The last thing we need is another dope scandal 🙁

    atlaz
    Member

    Well given the “rigorous” approach the Spanish anti-doping agency have, I’d be surprised if they even went to the right hotels or notified the rider of their interest. I’d bet after winning a grand tour you may be out partying. That’s not to say, of course, that it’s impossible he was evading the authorities.

    Edukator
    Member

    The last thing we need is another dope scandal

    It’s the first thing we need.

    cycling news

    clubber
    Member

    It’s great that they did the surprise test but IMO it doesn’t really say anything. If he is cheating then he’ll have been tested every day anyway so what’s a test carried out the day after going to show unless he was juicing up to cope with the post-win interviews/PR merrygoround… Surprise tests on the rest days or other times when we know people cheat would be the best chance of catching them, unless they know something we don’t…

    For me, the a large proportion of the peloton with a very few exceptions have to live with this situation of suspicion as they were part of it passive or not. Now, I’m not going to say I’d have been any different but a lot of riders, even if they didn’t cheat, knew what was going on and generally did nothing about it. We all saw what happened to Bassons and the like so I can see why they did keep quiet but they’re still reaping what they sowed and that’s especially true for the older riders – like Horner.

    I sincerely hope that the reason for Horner’s win is that he’s riding clean (and did all along…) and that the cheats are now struggling to cope with the new world where you perform well by training better rather than hitting a higher percentage but it’s really stretching credibility. Horner always looked like someone with potential but never quite made the big step. Was that because he was clean and unable to compete or just because he wasn’t ever quite good enough and is now doping just enough to avoid being caught but to still provide a decent boost?

    Who knows…

    atlaz
    Member

    It’s the first thing we need.

    Explain. It’s only something we “need” if someone is doping. It’s not that we should WANT this sort of thing

    mogrim
    Member

    Well given the “rigorous” approach the Spanish anti-doping agency have, I’d be surprised if they even went to the right hotels or notified the rider of their interest. I’d bet after winning a grand tour you may be out partying. That’s not to say, of course, that it’s impossible he was evading the authorities.

    The Spanish have tightened up the law recently, and the cynic in me reckons a foreign rider wouldn’t be treated as gently as a Spanish one.

    atlaz
    Member

    mogrim – my thoughts too. I have doubts if Purito had won and missed a test the press would have been tipped off. In the same way, it’s amazing none of their journos are that interested in the other Fuentes clients.

    Premier Icon MSP
    Subscriber

    I believe that the Spanish press think that the farce over Fuentes cost them dearly in the recent Olympic bid. There may be a change of attitude there, as also recently seen in the Giro with Italian riders being caught.

    Is Britain now not one of the last Major European countries where doping is not a criminal offence and still left to the governing bodies?

    I find it quite ironic that some posters who eagerly dismissed suspicions levelled against Wiggins and Froome as ridiculous speculation, have been quite happy to cast the same dispersions against Horner.

    atlaz
    Member

    The Italians have been strict on doping for some time. I’m honestly not sure it needs to be a criminal offence as removing the livelihood of the doper seems like a big enough punishment (unless they’re doping with illegal substances). Arguably they’d be open to civil suits or even criminal charges for fraud if they did a Lance so not sure it needs strengthening further.

    MSP – I still think the Spanish press should do a Walsh and dig up the rest of the Fuentes dirt so the cloud is at least cleared a bit. Right now pretty much every Spanish sporting success is under question.

    pondo
    Member

    To be honest, if he HAD been in the hotel first thing this morning the day after winning a Grand Tour, I’d feel a litle bit let down.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    MSP – Wiggins and Froome aren’t over 40, and have had a fairly normal career progression (granted Froome’s raises some suspicions). Oh, and everybody was expecting them to win when they did.

    whatnobeer
    Member

    Radioshack announcement that he was in his wife’s hotel and this was declared on the whereabouts form. So, just a cock up by the Spanish anti-doping folk?

    clubber
    Member

    Well it’ll be pretty clear – if it was on the ADAMS system as they claim (and within whatever time period they’re allowed to change it) then it just shows that Spanish AD are incompetent.

    mogrim
    Member

    I believe that the Spanish press think that the farce over Fuentes cost them dearly in the recent Olympic bid.

    MSP – I still think the Spanish press should do a Walsh and dig up the rest of the Fuentes dirt so the cloud is at least cleared a bit. Right now pretty much every Spanish sporting success is under question.

    The press is talking about it, and they certainly mention that it wasn’t just cyclists that were clients of Fuentes. Legally I’m not sure where they stand, though – the decision not to publish the names and destroy the samples was taken by a judge, not a sporting federation, and any investigation could run into serious legal problems. (Whether or not the judge was put under pressure or bribed to reach this conclusion is a different matter… I’d be very unsurprised to hear about the former, the latter is bit less likely.)

    lightman
    Member

    These are quotes from Horner about his mate Lance ~

    “Look, I’m certainly old enough and wise enough to understand the magnitude of the situation, but in the end he’s still getting prosecuted with no positive test. A lot of guys say they saw him and a lot say he did this and he did that, but I look at it and say: ‘USADA, WADA, UCI, they’re saying that the tests are worthless.’ So do you take all the tests, 500, 1000, I don’t know the number I’ve done in my own career and you basically say, that you took them for no reason?“

    “Maybe USADA have found the guys who have cheated but…. for me, you won the race (if) you passed the test. Lance won seven Tours de France and that’s what I saw and the moments I enjoyed and that the way it’s going to stay.”

    From that, he is basically saying, if you can cheat and nobody can catch you, then that is fine. Pretty much how LA got his wins.

    And, if you missed it. The fact that Horner was injured and looking like his career could be over for most of the year!

    Premier Icon FuzzyWuzzy
    Subscriber

    Nibali won the Vuelta in my eyes…

    tiggs121
    Member

    Until they take it away from him, Horner won the Vuelta. Impressive riding – I really hope he is clean.

    As for missing the test – if he has notified his whereabouts and the testing team have gone to the wrong hotel then so be it. They can always test him today?

    atlaz
    Member

    lightman – That’s what we’ve all said. His comments about Lance are bullshit and he was stupid to make them. As for his knee injury, what does that prove? He had surgery, doubted before and just after the surgery if at his age he could recover but recovered. If he’s found to have doped then fair enough, Nibali won, but as a two time stage winner, wearer of the red jersey for 5 days, the white jersey for another 5 days and the winner of the race, he will have had a LOT of tests. So lets see how it pans out eh?

    ormondroyd
    Member

    Bring back no tests, would be a superb smashfest!

    It’d be rubbish. The EPO free-for-all era just entrenched the best time triallers in the top positions. Armstrong, fortunately, had an aggressive attacking instinct, but a certain Spanish multiple-time-winner of Le Tour showed just what doping enabled. Boredom.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Subscriber

    as a two time stage winner, wearer of the red jersey for 5 days, the white jersey for another 5 days and the winner of the race, he will have had a LOT of tests

    Just like Lance, Marion Jones etc.

    ormondroyd
    Member

    he will have had a LOT of tests

    Which means nothing if a rider is EPO’d to the gills before the race and nobody catches it.

    atlaz
    Member

    EPO tests are far more accurate these days, Di Luca and Santambrogio were both busted for EPO at the Giro (but the latter is getting away with it).

    aracer / ormondroyd – So how do you propose to find a doper? Maybe if someone is trending on Google or Twitter with a hashtag of #doper we ban them?

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